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  #1   ^
Old Mon, May-21-01, 09:53
TammyJoi TammyJoi is offline
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Posts: 19
 
Plan: Diabetes Control/own adaptation
Stats: 343/270/ 200
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Location: Kansas City, Missouri,US
Question A ketone question

I realize the importance of Ketosis, and realize that it comes from burning up fat storage in our bodies. While doing research on diabetes, several places has talked about Ketoacidosis.

This is supposedly is having too many ketones in the urine. I don't know if it's harmful in non diabetics but they were talking about it being very harmful to diabetics. Is this something I should be watching out for and how much is too much?
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  #2   ^
Old Mon, May-21-01, 10:02
debbiedobson's Avatar
debbiedobson debbiedobson is offline
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Posts: 1,127
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 162/162/135
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i don't know a lot about it, but i know that ketacidosis is completelly different from ketosis and that it's harmful! i think it has to do with the blood, not the urine. i'm sure someone a lot more knowledgable than me will give you a better answer.
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, May-21-01, 10:11
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r.mines r.mines is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 162/124/120 Female 5'1"
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Location: Vancouver,BC
Default Ketoacidosis

Ketoacidosis is not something non-diabetics need to worry about. As far as I can understand (and I'm no biochemist or nutritionist), ketoacidosis is a sort of uncontrolled ketosis (which is a normal process) caused by the absence of insulin. In the absence of insulin, glucagon, which 'balances' the effects of insulin, converts dietary fat to ketones and also releases fat from fat cells to be burned for energy as ketones; but without the balancing effect of insulin, TOO MUCH fat is released all at once. And without insulin, the bloodstream is also flooded with sugar, which needs insulin to metabolize it properly.

Non-diabetics have insulin to balance out our glucagon, so we don't go into ketoacidosis.

This is probably a very poor explanation! I culled it from pp. 34-38 of Protein Power, but I can't claim to either understand it or explain it very well. However, I believe this is the general idea.

Hope this helps!

Rachel
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, May-21-01, 10:24
rainny's Avatar
rainny rainny is offline
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Plan: CKD
Stats: 245/215/130
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Location: Waller TX
Default Okay this is what I found:

There are two fuels your body burns for energy. Glucose, the primary fuel, comes from eating carbohydrates. When your body runs out of glucose, it turns to its secondary fuel source: your own body fat. When you reduce your intake of carbohydrates, your body must convert fat into energy, and this metabolic state is called "ketosis." So being in ketosis simply means living off your fat stores. Assuming you're overweight, this process is not only safe-it's desirable!
One reason why people become overweight in the first place is that their bodies have great difficulty in using this backup fuel system. Almost 50 years ago, scientists demonstrated that obese and overweight people differed dramatically from people of normal weight in that they were very resistant to developing ketosis. The Atkins program helps your body activate its fat-burning system by restricting its primary source of fuel-glucose.

Ketosis is absolutely safe-unless you happen to have no excess body fat. So, why do so many people think ketosis is dangerous? Perhaps because the term is often confused with another K-word. Ketoacidosis is a potentially dangerous condition that occurs in a diabetic whose blood sugar levels are out of control. Ketoacidosis is not experienced on the Atkins plan. We have diabetic patients at The Atkins Center in ketosis whose blood sugar is under control, and they are burning fat and losing weight.

Anyone who is diabetic and wishes to follow the Atkins weight-loss program (or any diet) should seek a physician's supervision.

Selected reference: Bloom, W., "Fasting Ketosis in Obese Men and Women." J. Lab. & Clin. Med. 606, 1962; 784.
FAQ: Atkins
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, May-21-01, 10:30
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tamarian tamarian is offline
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Posts: 19,570
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
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Location: Ottawa, ON
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Good research Lorraine.

Wa'il
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  #6   ^
Old Mon, May-21-01, 10:34
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
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Plan: LC, GF
Stats: 241/186/140 Female 165 cm
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Default ketones / ketoacidosis

hi TammyJoi,

Ketones are a normal and efficient source of fuel and energy, produced by the liver from fatty acids, in response to the absence of glucose/sugar. In a ketogenic diet, such as Atkins ... or diets used for treating epilepsy in children, the tiny amounts of glucose required for some select functions can be met by consuming a minimum amount of carbs or can be manufactured in the liver from PROTEIN. By the way, the brain and muscles work very efficiently with ketones as the energy source ..

In ketoacidosis, the key element is ACID, not ketones. The blood pH becomes dangerously acidic because of an extremely high blood SUGAR level (the diabetic has no insulin, or doesn't respond to insulin .... so blood sugar rises ... ketones are produced by the body to provide the fuel necessary for life, since the cells can't use the sugar). It's the high blood sugar, and the acid condition that is so dangerous. Ketones just happen to be a part of the picture, and are a RESULT of the condition, not the CAUSE.

Doreen
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  #7   ^
Old Mon, May-21-01, 12:42
rainny's Avatar
rainny rainny is offline
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Posts: 415
 
Plan: CKD
Stats: 245/215/130
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Location: Waller TX
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Thanks Wa'il! !
SMILE!
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, May-21-01, 13:29
TammyJoi TammyJoi is offline
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Posts: 19
 
Plan: Diabetes Control/own adaptation
Stats: 343/270/ 200
BF:
Progress:
Location: Kansas City, Missouri,US
Smile Thanks everyone

Makes sense, with the other pieces I am trying to put together.

By keeping the carbo count low, keeps the sugar level lower, which should keep ketosis going, and ketoacidosis non existent. Makes sense to me.



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  #9   ^
Old Tue, May-22-01, 06:57
rainny's Avatar
rainny rainny is offline
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Plan: CKD
Stats: 245/215/130
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Location: Waller TX
Smile I was looking for something else and found this!

What is ketosis and why do you want to obtain it?
Ketosis: a condition in which the body will turn to fat for fuel and is producing ketones as a byproduct. This change in metabolism occurs when the body no longer has incoming carbs to produce glycogen and after the liver has been depleted of stored glycogen. When either stored body fat or incoming dietary fat is used as fuel it breaks down into ketones.

Ketones can be used as fuel for your body or discarded via your breath or urination. It is the rise in ketone production that means you are in ketosis. Take note that although you are in ketosis this does not mean that you are *only* burning bodyfat. The released ketones may be from either bodyfat or dietary fat.

Why: We want to be in a metabolic state where, without incoming carbs, and without consuming too many grams of dietary fat or protein, our bodies will be burning stored bodyfat as fuel. Positive side effects of being in ketosis are that it can be protein sparing (allowing us to retain lean body mass) and that it can lead to a decrease in appetite for some people.

NOTE: Ketosis is NOT ketoacidosis. There are two types of ketoacidosis: diabetic ketoacidosis (which is due to simultaneous rise in blood glucose and blood acidity) and alcoholic ketoacidosis (which is due to heavy alcohol consumption without food intake). If you do not fall into either of these groups your body should have the feedback loops that will keep ketone production in check. Ketones are produced daily by most people to some degree and are a part of the body's system of survival.

See http://members.tripod.com/~Dietman2/ketosis.html for more on this subject.

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  #10   ^
Old Tue, May-22-01, 12:25
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
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Plan: LC, GF
Stats: 241/186/140 Female 165 cm
BF:
Progress: 54%
Location: Eastern ON, Canada
Default

Thanks Lorraine .. ;

Indeed there's plenty of sound scientific evidence that lowcarbohydrate-induced ketosis is not harmful in any way, and is a perfectly efficient source of fuel and energy in the body. In fact, ketogenic diets have been used since the 1920s to treat epilepsy in small children, infants even .. that can't be controlled with drugs. Wa'il has plenty of research in his Studies pages, (on the red menu bar above).

And as I stated in my post just above here, the tiny amount of glucose required by the body (red blood cells, and few certain nerve cells) can be provided by the vegetables and other trace carbs consumed OR the liver can make glucose from PROTEIN (which is why it's important to consume adequate protein every day, bare minimum 60 gms)

However, there seems to be a bit of misunderstanding about the role played by the ketone strips, and should they show dark as possible, or light, or turn green or rainbow-striped or what ..

Ketones are produced in the liver, from the fatty acids which result from the breakdown and metabolism of FAT. It makes no difference whatsoever the source of fat -- body or dietary -- so as long as you are keeping your carb intake low, your liver will make ketones from your BODY fat or from the fat you EAT, depending on what is handy at the time... ...

The liver can and DOES also make ketones from alcohol. In fact, the conversion of alcohol to ketones is much simpler and direct, therefore the liver will use the incoming alcohol in PREFERENCE to any fatty acids that may be present. Which is why consuming alcoholic drinks won't knock you out of ketosis (unless they're sweet or mixed with a sugary drink) ... but it will put FAT-burning on hold until the supply of alcohol is used up.

Inhaling certain acetyl-based solvents can also raise ketone levels in the blood, since these substances are metabolized in the liver as well ... paints and paint-thinners, nail-polish remover, hairsprays and other aerosols ... People who work in environments where these substances are concentrated will show higher than normal levels of ketones ... whether or NOT they are following a ketogenic diet. This would include -- auto-body shop workers, hairdressers & manicurists, house and industrial painters, insulation workers, etc

Ketones will spill into the urine ONLY when there is more in the blood than is being used as fuel by the body at that particular moment. The sticks have no way to indicate the source of the ketones (body or dietary fat, alcohol or inhaled acetates, etc). Nor do they have any way of indicating when the ketones were made, only that at the time of emptying your bladder, there were enough ketones in the blood to "spill over" into the urine.

You may have exercised a few hours previously, so your muscles would have used up the ketones as fuel, thus there will be no excess circulating in the blood. Yet, another person may have just exercised, and will have an excess of ketones because of the fat burned during the workout. You may have eaten a fatty meal, or had a glass of dry wine -- which will mean MORE ketones are in the blood at that moment. You may be dehydrated, or first thing in the morning (you haven't had anything to drink overnight) .. so there will be a concentration of ketones. Some people show lightest or negative in the morning, since for them, fat-burning slows during sleep, and speeds up when awake and active.

One of the quotes Lorraine has provided above, is from the Atkinscenter.com FAQ page .. http://www.atkinscenter.com/faq/faq.asp ... If you scroll up the page, directly above that particular question, you'll see the following:
Quote:
What shade of purple should my Lipolysis Testing Strips be? Ketosis is an indicator used at The Atkins Center as a marker for whether a person is staying on the Diet. Ketones are formed when the body breaks down fat. If you are restricting the amount of carbohydrates you eat, then the body's preferred source of energy is used for metabolism.
There are many reasons why a person's ketone test strip would be varying shades of purple. Each dieter's metabolism level is different and therefore will turn the sticks a varying degree of purple. In addition, the time of the day, whether or not you exercise, and what you had at your last meal will all affect the ketone test strips. It also does not necessarily matter whether you are turning the strips a dark or light color. The important thing is you are in ketosis and are burning fat. However, keep in mind that every individual's metabolism is different, and as a result, there are patients at the Center who never even get into ketosis, yet lose all the weight they want.

In summary, don't worry about the exact level of ketosis you will find on the strip. The important thing is to worry about the restrictions of the Diet, how your clothes are fitting and what the scale says. Because of this, we sometimes do not even use the strips, nor do I encourage you to weigh yourself every day. This should be done once per week. Don't make the common mistake of eating less fat to get into ketosis; the opposite is actually true.

No matter what I do, I can’t get into ketosis or the shade of purple on the sticks is very light. What am I doing wrong? The first question to ask yourself is, “Am I seeing success on the Atkins Diet?” (loss of weight/inches, improved mental/physical energy, etc.). If you are, then don’t focus on ketosis as a success gauge.
If you are not seeing success, please review the question concerning stalled weight loss for additional help.

In either case, please remember not to over test yourself. At The Atkins Center, we recommend that patients test ketosis level as well as get on the scale no more than once a week.
If you're interested to look into this further, here are a few more articles I found on the subject of how dark or light should the ketone strips beFor most lowcarbers, testing even just a trace for ketones is a perfectly adequate indication that ketosis and fat-burning is taking place. Period. There will always be some individuals who consistently test dark all the time, or who test negative all the time, yet fat-burnining and weight loss is happening at a steady rate. However it is working for YOU, it means that you are an individual, and here's a chance to celebrate your uniqueness ..

Doreen
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  #11   ^
Old Tue, May-22-01, 12:36
rainny's Avatar
rainny rainny is offline
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Posts: 415
 
Plan: CKD
Stats: 245/215/130
BF:
Progress:
Location: Waller TX
Talking THANK YOU DOREEN!

You always know the right way to say everything!
Smile,
Lorraine
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  #12   ^
Old Mon, May-28-01, 17:09
Karen B Karen B is offline
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Plan: modified Atkins plan
Stats: 220/188/150
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Location: Thunder Bay Ontario
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Hi everyone. Not sure of exactly how to work this forum so please bear with me. We are in the middle of changing servers and I'm really confused.

However, I want to thank everyone for all their valuable info on the low carb diet and ketosis etc. I have decided to stay on the plan (have lost two more pounds since last post). It is working and I feel great and my doctor knows what I am doing and I will be having constant blood tests done on kidneys etc so am not too worried. Anyway it's got to be a lot healthier than being overweight and inactive..right? Thanks again and I'll be back as soon as I figure out this #%~ new computer system.

Karen B.
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