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  #1   ^
Old Sat, Aug-29-15, 16:31
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RawNut RawNut is offline
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Default Diet Advice That Ignores Hunger, By Gary Taubes

Quote:
TOWARD the end of the Second World War, researchers at the University of Minnesota began a legendary experiment on the psychology and physiology of human starvation — and, thus, on hunger. The subjects were 36 conscientious objectors, some lean, some not. For 24 weeks, these men were semi-starved, fed not quite 1,600 calories a day of foods chosen to represent the fare of European famine areas: “whole-wheat bread, potatoes, cereals and considerable amounts of turnips and cabbage” with “token amounts” of meat and dairy.

As diets go, it was what nutritionists today would consider a low-calorie, and very low-fat diet, with only 17 percent of calories coming from fat.

What happened to these men is a lesson in our ability to deal with caloric deprivation, which means, as well, a lesson in any expectations we might have about most current weight-loss advice, and perhaps particularly the kind that begins with “eat less” and “restrict fat.”

The men lost an average of a pound of body fat a week over the first 12 weeks, but averaged only a quarter-pound per week over the next 12, despite the continued deprivation. And this was not their only physiological reaction. Their extremities swelled; their hair fell out; wounds healed slowly. They felt continually cold; their metabolism slowed.

More troubling were the psychological effects. The men became depressed, lethargic and irritable. They threw tantrums. They lost their libido. They thought obsessively about food, day and night. The Minnesota researchers called this “semi-starvation neurosis.” Four developed “character neurosis.” Two had breakdowns, one with “weeping, talk of suicide and threats of violence.” He was committed to the psychiatric ward. The “personality deterioration” of the other “culminated in two attempts at self-mutilation.” He nearly detached the tip of one finger and later chopped off three with an ax.

When the period of imposed starvation ended, the subjects were allowed to “refeed.” At first they were allowed to eat more calories, but restricted as to how much. A subset under continued observation was then allowed to eat to satiety, which was surprisingly hard to achieve. The men consumed prodigious amounts of food, up to 10,000 calories a day. They regained weight and fat with remarkable rapidity. After 20 weeks of recovery, they averaged 50 percent more body fat than they had when it began — “post-starvation obesity,” the researchers called it.

Implicit in many discussions of how best to lose weight is the assumption that hunger, which is a consequence of caloric deprivation, is not an issue. Health and government organizations tell the obese and overweight, who now make up just over two-thirds of our adult population, to do what the study’s subjects did: Eat less, cut back on calories.

That advice implies that the ensuing hunger will be an easily bearable burden (no depression, lethargy, irritability — no tantrums, please!). And bearable not just for 24 weeks, but a lifetime. The Minnesota experiment tells us that when semi-starvation ends, the refeeding period will not end well.

This issue of how to diet, and how to lose weight, was in the news again recently when a study was published by researchers at the National Institutes of Health. The researchers confined their obese subjects (nine women, 10 men) to a hospital ward and then put them on diets that approached semi-starvation, feeding them an average of more than 820 fewer calories a day than they needed to maintain their weight. They averaged about 1,920 calories a day, but one diet was composed of foods that were 29 percent carbohydrates and 50 percent fat — the carb-restricted diet — and the other was composed of foods that were 71 percent carbohydrates and only 8 percent fat — the fat-restricted diet.

The subjects were then required to eat these diets, not a calorie more or less, for six days — not 24 weeks.

An N.I.H. official hailed the study as providing “invaluable evidence on how different types of calories affect metabolism and body composition.” Google News referenced well over 200 entries about the study in the first three days after publication.

What made the headlines? That the subjects lost more fat by restricting dietary fat than they did by restricting the same number of carbohydrate calories. “Scientists (sort of) settle debate on low-carb vs. low-fat diets,” as The Washington Post put it.

But the devil in nutrition studies is always in the kind of details that are encapsulated by phrases like “sort of.” Whether the evidence was invaluable, as the N.I.H. claimed, depends on a number of issues. Is the experience of six days relevant to what happens over months, years or a lifetime? There’s little reason to think so. Can humans survive (and if so, for how long) on a diet of 8 percent fat? The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations has said 15 percent is the lower limit. And then is a diet with about 30 percent carbohydrates sufficiently restricted to be considered a low-carb diet — the N.I.H. diet included
blueberry muffins at breakfast, spaghetti at lunch and wraps for dinner.

Those who argue publicly (as I do) that refined grains and sugars cause obesity believe that losing meaningful weight requires far more significant changes in the quality of carbohydrates consumed (far less refined) and in the amount (less than 20 percent, perhaps less than 10).

Finally, what about hunger? By inflicting caloric deprivation for only six days, the researchers seem to have made the implicit decision that hunger — the biological response to caloric deprivation — is irrelevant to how we should think about a weight-loss diet. That the subjects might be hungrier on one diet than the other was also not addressed.

The low-fat diet of the N.I.H. experiment had significantly less fat (8 percent vs. 17 percent) and only 350 more calories a day than the diet on which the Minnesota researchers drove their conscientious objectors to the point of character neurosis and mental breakdowns. The N.I.H. diet had more protein, too. But the history of diet studies (and human populations) suggests that caloric deprivation is unsustainable.

That humans or any other organism will lose weight if starved sufficiently has never been news. The trick, if such a thing exists, is finding a way to do it without hunger so weight loss can be sustained indefinitely. A selling point for carbohydrate-restricted diets has always been that you can eat to satiety; counting calories is unnecessary, so long as carbohydrates are mostly avoided.

But this advice raises a pair of obvious questions, or at least it should: If people on low-carb diets eat less (the conventional explanation for any loss of fat that ensues), why aren’t they hungry? Where’s the semi-starvation neurosis? And if they don’t eat less, why do they lose weight? It implies a mechanism of weight loss other than caloric deprivation and suggests that the carbohydrates and fats consumed make a difference.

Questions like these about the relationship between calories, macronutrients and hunger have haunted nutrition and obesity research since the late 1940s. But rarely are they asked. We believe so implicitly in the rationale of eat less, move more, that we (at least those of us who are lean) will implicitly fault the obese for their failures to sustain a calorie-restricted regimen, without ever apparently asking ourselves whether we could sustain it either. I have a colleague who spent his research career studying hunger. Asking people to eat less, he says, is like asking them to breathe less. It sounds reasonable, so long as you don’t expect them to keep it up for long.

Much of the obesity research for the past century has focused on elucidating behavioral techniques that could induce the obese to eat less, tolerate hunger better, and so, by this logic, lose weight. The obesity epidemic suggests that it has failed.


For those who believe that hunger is somehow all in the mind, rather than a powerful biological response to caloric deprivation, it is tempting to wish on them the fate that the goddess Ceres bestowed on King Erysichthon of Thessaly in Greek mythology. She “devised a punishment to rouse men’s pity… to torment him with baleful Hunger.” Erysichthon then eats himself out of castle and kingdom and ultimately dies by feeding, “little by little, on his own body.”



http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/30/o...res-hunger.html

Last edited by RawNut : Sat, Aug-29-15 at 16:41.
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  #2   ^
Old Sat, Aug-29-15, 16:57
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Tamoney Tamoney is offline
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Very interesting article.
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  #3   ^
Old Sat, Aug-29-15, 18:02
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
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I thought of the MN study, too, when I read the article about the NIH study.

Six days is nothing. For them to place such weight on the findings of less than one week is utterly irresponsible. People don't eat for six days, they eat for a lifetime.

Which diet has results that can be sustained for a month, 6 months, a year, 10 years?

The data certainly shows it's not the low fat, high carb one; only 1% of people who use that as a way to lose weight can lose a significant amount, and even then, they tend to go back to old habits and regain.

Or, as they age, their bodies can't deal with so many carbs, and they gain, even as they continue to eat the same diet--I know this intimately, it happened to me.

GAH. All this bad science in the interest of saving face makes me so angry.
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Old Sat, Aug-29-15, 22:30
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Quote:
TOWARD the end of the Second World War, researchers at the University of Minnesota began a legendary experiment on the psychology and physiology of human starvation — and, thus, on hunger. The subjects were 36 conscientious objectors, some lean, some not. For 24 weeks, these men were semi-starved, fed not quite 1,600 calories a day of foods chosen to represent the fare of European famine areas: “whole-wheat bread, potatoes, cereals and considerable amounts of turnips and cabbage” with “token amounts” of meat and dairy.

As diets go, it was what nutritionists today would consider a low-calorie, and very low-fat diet, with only 17 percent of calories coming from fat.

What happened to these men is a lesson in our ability to deal with caloric deprivation, which means, as well, a lesson in any expectations we might have about most current weight-loss advice, and perhaps particularly the kind that begins with “eat less” and “restrict fat.”

If you'll all excuse me, it's about goddamn time this stuff makes it into the media. Some of you may remember I often use this same argument in comparison between that very experiment and the current advice to lose weight. We obviously haven't learned the lessons from that most famous of experiments.

Taubes is being so subtly polite towards "An N.I.H. official". Hehe. I think he used that recent experiment only to illustrate his point about hunger. Good stuff. Thanks for posting, Rawnut.
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  #5   ^
Old Sun, Aug-30-15, 08:53
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NoWhammies NoWhammies is offline
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I talk about the Minnesota study a lot in my work. I really believe that its findings were extremely important and frequently overlooked in the realm of dietary "science."

You may notice that there are a lot of media articles out lately about the futility of dieting - about weight regain, etc. I believe we already have the answer as to the "whys" of that, and I'd also bet mostly that is pointing to the failure of a calorie-restricted, low-fat diet.

One of the things that always cracks me up is how some nutritionist in an article discussing the efficacy of a low-carb diet is there saying, "It may be effective, but it's not sustainable" or some such nonsense. I always wonder this: How sustainable is semi-starvation? The Minnesota study shows it's probably not super sustainable, as do all of the statistics pointing to the information driving articles about diet recidivism.

But anything to justify conventional dietary "wisdom" right? Too many corporate interests and an entire health industry would lose out on big bucks if people actually discovered how to care for their health eating veggies and meat.

I'll end there, or I'll really start to rant.
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Old Sun, Aug-30-15, 09:04
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Merpig Merpig is offline
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Sheesh, anyone can do just about any sort of diet for 6 days, even complete fasting. It means nothing. On one group I was once part of we described dieting with conscious calorie restriction as like holding a beachball underwater. You can hold it under for a time with conscious effort, but eventually your muscles give out and that ball comes shooting up out of the water!

Yes, you can lose weight on a calorie restricted diet. The most weight I lost in the last 30 years was on a low-fat, calorie-restricted diet. (LCHF was not on my radar in the late 80's). Stuck with it nearly a year, lost a ton of weight, got down into "normal" sizes and not X. And I was miserable every day of the year ~ developing a number of the symptoms the MN men had. I was utterly food obsessed, thought about food, dreamt about food. My dreams were about eating hot fudge sundaes and Toll House cookies warm and chewy frim the oven. This was virtually EVERY NIGHT. I became a social hermit and avoided parties and going to lunch with co-workers as it was impossible for me to be in any setting where people ate food. I became snappish and cranky, short-tempered with my young son.

I lasted as long as I did as I had entered a New Year's pact with a co-worker ~ that he would give up smoking and I would stay on a diet. So since I always hated to be beaten in anything I would wake up every day and say, "well J is still not smoking so I have to stay on this damn diet".

But after nearly a year I was thinner than I'd been in forever it seemed, and far more miserable. J was still off cigarettes (and indeed he never smoked again), but the beachball finally burst out of the water. I woke up one morning and said "Screw it. I'd rather weigh 300 pounds than live like this one more day!" Which came to pass of course.

But forget "studies" about 6-day "diets". Who even cares? Not me, 6 days is meaningless.
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Old Sun, Aug-30-15, 09:49
kirkor kirkor is offline
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1600 calories seems like a lot to be considered "semi starved" ... how big were these dudes?
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Old Sun, Aug-30-15, 09:52
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NoWhammies NoWhammies is offline
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Back when I was a competitive bodybuilder (in the mid to late 80s), the way that you cut for competition was very low calorie, very low-fat. I remember every night in the weeks before competition lying in bed reading some food catalog. I kept it next to my bed and read it every single night. I was so damn hungry.
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Old Sun, Aug-30-15, 11:16
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Nicekitty Nicekitty is offline
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Interesting to see Gary Taubes come out with a response to the recent Kevin Hall/NIH study. I am still waiting with bated breath for the results of the study funded by his Nusi foundation, working in conjunction with Kevin Hall.

Another point from the UM study--weight loss was good over the first 12 weeks, but slowed considerable after that as the metabolisms adjusted. How long would it take the metabolism of an overweight/obese person to adjust downward? It's not going to happen in 6 days, maybe not even for several weeks. But at some point their metabolism will fight back and weight loss will stall. A low-fat/calorie diet may work just fine until that point (but of course the weight comes back quickly when old eating habits resume).
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Old Sun, Aug-30-15, 15:31
Sagehill Sagehill is offline
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One thing that most people (not the article above) who quote the Minnesota Study, but haven't read the original study, is that most of these men were not overweight to begin with, so they really were starved, not having much bodyfat reserves (or much less than most Americans today) to pull calories from. So yes, of course they starved.... as they were meant to.
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Old Sun, Aug-30-15, 16:33
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teaser teaser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkor
1600 calories seems like a lot to be considered "semi starved" ... how big were these dudes?


They started at normal weight for the times, and they were skinnier times.

Take a guy at 160, 15 percent fat, that's 24 pounds of fat. Diet 12 weeks, lose a pound of fat a week, and if all that was lost is fat--now the guy's 148 pounds, about 8 percent fat, and at the body fat levels where even bodybuilders and fitness competitors start to find dieting down further harder and harder. At that point, still eating 1600 calories, still losing weight--way too much of it's lean mass.

Besides the diet, there was also some forced exercise. Basal metabolic rate is supposed to have gone down by something like 40 percent, so maybe the forced marches were necessary to get them to waste away sufficiently. The calorie restriction was somewhere around 50 percent. So, cut calories 50 percent, metabolism 40 percent--but add in exercise, and life is bad.

I think some people will say, no fair, these guys were really starving, not semi-starving, by the end of the experiment, and there's some justice in that. But--one person becomes very uncomfortable at reduced calories at 20 percent body fat, another at 15. Another might at 10, or 30. The time for the body to start resisting isn't hours before you starve to death, that would be useless.
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Old Sun, Aug-30-15, 16:35
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teaser teaser is offline
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At 1600 calories, even low carb--I get pretty uncomfortable pretty fast, even when sedentary.
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Old Sun, Aug-30-15, 20:39
MickiSue MickiSue is offline
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Calorie intake, prior to the low fat nonsense, averaged about 3000 cals for men, and over 2000 for women.

When you eat primarily carbs, you need fewer cals to gain, and fewer to sustain.But you are more frequently hungry, because the higher insulin levels in the blood cause carb cravings.

So a diet of 1600 cals, primarily carbs, along with being about 1/2 the amount usually eaten by these young men, was guaranteed to make them hungrier.
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Old Sun, Aug-30-15, 21:01
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Reading your personal experiences (mine fits in there too), Taubes' point is so obvious. Those who give this advice just ignore all that bad stuff that inevitably comes with the advice. You can't ignore hunger, going crazy from it, doing all kinds of crazy stuff to keep your mind away from it. Why isn't there a warning like with bad side effects for drugs? Docs prescribe semi-starvation, they should know. People who do it certainly know. Why don't we talk about it more, why isn't it a major topic? In some way, it is a major topic, we call it willpower. But by definition, hunger is uncontrollable, going crazy from it is uncontrollable. If you're hungry you're hungry, ain't nothing gonna make that go away except food. Prolly why we keep thinking and dreaming about food, cuz we know it's the only thing gonna make that hunger go away. We know that not cuz we did scientific experiments, we know this cuz this knowledge is built in. Hunger is built in. It's fundamental, it's a product of evolution. It's hard-coded into our brain.

We often read "if it was so easy, everybody would be lean". But I'd like to read instead "if that's how it worked, everybody would be lean". It's not easy, it's very hard, in fact it's impossible because that's not how it actually works. I believe it works this way: If hunger is absent, it's working.

Last edited by M Levac : Sun, Aug-30-15 at 21:07.
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Old Sun, Aug-30-15, 21:59
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Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Brilliant post, Martin!
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