Need some information on bypass surgery

[rachelratz]

I was not sure of where to put this thread. I ran into a old friend I had not seen for several years. When last I saw him, he was 283 lbs, still trying diets. When I saw him yesterday in the street, I was shocked. He looked half the man he was. He told me he was 210 lbs, the result not of a diet, but bybpass surgery. The doctors had cut big sections of intestins. What he described was not what I imagine it to be. I just thought they just cut part of your stomach and sowned back up. He told me his stomach was the size of a very small fist. He now wore a bag. He could no longer eat food normally. He can never have soft drinks. He said his stomach would explode. The day I saw him, he was bringing home some popsicles for him to eat. He said some people did not survive the initial surgery and some died afterwards. When I told my husband, he thought that my friend had cancer in his stomach because of the bag he wore. Is this possible? Did I hear this right? If this is the alternative to diets, I don't know what to think. I can't imangine a life worse.

I am also puzzled by what he meant when he said he had tried so many diets. When I mentioned Atkins, he said Isn't that the diet where you all you eat is meat? To tell the truth I am confused by what he meant.

[bigpeach]

"Wearing a bag" usually refers to a colostomy, which would have to do with a condition of the large intestine, not a gastric bypass, which involves the stomach and small intestine.

[rachelratz]

I am still confused why they did that to him. He was way over 300 lbs, closer to 400. Others have lost a great deal of weight in his weight range. Was this an extreme measure? The quality of his life sounded awful. He could never eat normally again. He said he would eventually drop to 190 lbs. At some point the body will shut down on him dropping more weight and settle at that weight. He was happy the diabetes he developed had gone at any rate. Most of all, he said, he would be living longer, a "normal" life span. I still feel terrible. I can not comprehend spending the rest of my life like that. I still don't believe he tried hard enough to diet. He would always be careful never eat something as simple as a single meatball. That could kill him. Thank you for the information

[ValerieL]

I had a gastric bypass surgery in 1999. Wearing a bag is indeed generally indicative of a colostomy, not gastric bypass, so that doesn't fit, though possibly he had complications with his surgery or had the colostomy prior to the surgery. After a gastric bypass, the new stomach is indeed very small, actually more like a thumb than a small fist is what my doctor told me. I have heard some doctors tell patients not to drink carbonated beverages, but my doctor never said that to me, and I drink diet coke like a fiend all day now. Maybe it expanded my stomach (mine has expanded over time, I can eat a normal sized meal now, not just the 1/4 cup of food at a time as when I first started), but I certainly didn't *explode*.

I'm not sure what you are confused by when he asked if Atkins was all about eating meat, apparently he is under the same misconceptions about low carb as it seems 90% of the general public is. You might want to tell him what low-carb really is. If those popsicles of his weren't sugar free, he's setting himself up for failure. It's very easy to regain lots of weight if you go back to eating carbs after a gastric bypass. The soft or melty texture of most carbs makes them go through the small stomach very quickly, leaving the person hungry for more. Eating low-carb keeps the stomach fuller for longer and enhances the benefits of the surgery.

Val

[ValerieL]

I still feel terrible. I can not comprehend spending the rest of my life like that. I still don't believe he tried hard enough to diet.

There are huge emotional, physical & societal issues with being massively overweight that I would respectfully suggest you have no way of fully comprehending. When a person gets to be that weight, desperation can set in, and (bag aside, I don't know if I'd have gotten the surgery if it meant a colostomy) surgery is a viable and proven option for many. It actually has a success rate higher than any long term documented success rate for low-carb dieting.

As for judging how hard he tried to diet. Are you sure you want to try to make that judgement? Do you really know him well enough to know how hard he tried, what obstacles he was facing, what private hell he might have been going through trying to lose weight without flaunting his diet attempts around for everyone to watch, judge and laugh at if he failed? I do believe there are some who don't honestly try to lose weight, but the fact that they have not been able to lose weight doesn't prove to me they didn't try hard enough. I think that logic is faulty.

Val

[rachelratz]

I did not know what to think when I saw him again. I had always assumed a bypass to be neat and tidy sugery. That the person would be able to eat somewhat close to normal The only thing I knew about it was that Carney Wilsons singer's operation. This sounded (to me) like a procedure done after stomach cancer. To say anything about Atkins would be a rather moot point. I had no idea his weight had grown to threaten his life....last time I saw him was nearly 8 years ago. His almost casual comment about not drinking soft drink or his stomach would explode scared the hell out of me.

[fourkids]

Do you really know him well enough to know how hard he tried, what obstacles he was facing, what private hell he might have been going through trying to lose weight without flaunting his diet attempts around for everyone to watch, judge and laugh at if he failed?

I don't think anyone can ever know another person well enough to make that kind of a judgement. Ever.

I do believe there are some who don't honestly try to lose weight, but the fact that they have not been able to lose weight doesn't prove to me they didn't try hard enough. I think that logic is faulty.


You explain that PERFECTLY, Val. Well done.

There are huge emotional, physical & societal issues with being massively overweight that I would respectfully suggest you have no way of fully comprehending.

Ditto.

[Crone]

I still don't believe he tried hard enough to diet.

Pardon me for being blunt, but I take great offense at that statement. How can you - who had what? 30 freakin' pounds to lose? - judge someone who had 200 to lose? You cannot possibly know what his life was like.

I'll get slammed for this, and possibly banned, but there it is. I need to lose well over 100 pounds, followed low carb almost to the letter for nearly a year, exercised fairly regularly and lost a whopping 21 pounds. And I tried extremely hard to lose more. No one - fat or skinny - has the right to judge me and my weight loss efforts.

[rachelratz]

Yes you are being blunt. I asked a question, now I am getting dumped on. Parden me

[fourkids]

No one - fat or skinny - has the right to judge me and my weight loss efforts.

You're right, Dell, of course. I'm sorry that we live in a world that does make judgements all the time. Good for you for losing that 21 pounds, though! Every pound can make a difference in our health, so congratulations to you.

[potatofree]

This is what I don't get... you say you hadn't seen him in 8 years, but yet you feel entitled to judge how hard he tried? Nice.

You aren't getting jumped on for asking a question... if I'd only read your first post, I wouldn't think of it as anything other than curiousity and confusion... but the minute I saw your comment about not believing he tried hard enough, it hit a raw nerve. Frankly, you have as musch basis for your assumption as he did for assuming Atkins is just eating all meat. ;)

Judgement without knowledge is what is offending people, not your question.

[scthgharpy]

In rachelratz defense.....

Maybe I read her original post incorrectly, but I sure didnt hear any judgements or scanadlous commentary. She was asking questions about what was really happening. I dont think anyone on this board is necessarily a SUPPORTER of the gastric bypass surgery, if the zillion negative posts ive read on the topic are any indication.

Her last line in the first post was that she couldnt imagine a life worse than watching certain foods so carefully, and wearing a colostomy bag, as the seeming result of the surgery. Soyunds more like empathy to me, than scathing judgement.

So back off, ya'all

[Mandra]

I don't think it's the first post that people are objecting to, rather it's the comment that she didn't think the fellow had tried hard enough to lose weight.

[fourkids]

it's the comment that she didn't think the fellow had tried hard enough to lose weight.

That's right. And btw, Mandra, hello! I live close to Ottawa myself. :)

[ValerieL]

In rachelratz defense.....

Maybe I read her original post incorrectly....

No, you didn't but you might not have read the rest of the posts, both from her and others. It was made quite clear that the objection was to her judgement that her friend hadn't tried hard enough, not her original questions.

And I think given the original post was in the War Zone, we are okay to call her on that.

[Lisa N]

I think given the original post was in the War Zone, we are okay to call her on that.

As long as it's done without flames, personal attacks, name calling, obscenities or other violations of the forum rules, yup.

The following quote is taken from this sticky (http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=64749) located at the top of the forum:

Active Low-Carber Forums has always promoted a supportive environment for its members. For this reason, we decided to open this special forum for those who don't mind a heated debate. For those who might be easily offended, they have the choice to not participate in this area.

So, this forum has a more relaxed set of rules to allow for such debates. However, obscenities will not be tolerated here. We will remove any profanity, and replace it with *** as we see fit. In addition, we will discourage personal attacks, blatant flames and insults that detract from the debate and add nothing to the discussion.


Discussions in the War Zone do tend to be more blunt and heated and for this reason, those who are easily offended may want to avoid particpation in this particular area. :idea:

[rachelratz]

Well, I was upset. This was personal friend of mind I had not seen for years. The reason I had thought he might not have tried hard enough was that when I asked if he had tried Atkins (among others) he said "Isn't that the one you that all you do is eat meat? I told him it was more then that. He then said that he had tried all the diets under the sun. I am sure he did. He is my friend and I care about him. His surgery frightend me...I was sure it was cancer. That is why I needed some kind of clarification. I am a blunt and a plain speaker also. This is between my firiend and myself and nobody else on the this board. I just wanted some more information/ I don't know you, but I do know him. What bothered me is I don't like to be thought of less then alll of you because I did not lose enough weight (as a kind of a litmiss test) Everyone goes though some kind of hell trying to lose weight be it in 3 digits or 30 lbs. I said in the beginning of my post I was not sure what board to put it on.

I have been on board for quite a while, and I do enjoy posting and exchanging ideas. I have marvaled how many people came through, and are still trying. I am a poor writer, so if I came across as crass and uncaring, believe me it was not intended.

[potatofree]

I'm sorry, but as well-meaning and caring as you are, you really can't know what kind of hell a 400-lb person has been through, nor can I...even though I've got a good amount to lose myself.

It's not a contest, nor is weight loss a litmus test for caring. You're right there. It's just offensive for someone to decide you haven't tried hard enough by whatever arbitrary standard they have in their own mind.

The only question I really have is how do you define "trying hard enough"?

[Lisa N]

His surgery frightend me...I was sure it was cancer. That is why I needed some kind of clarification.

Then, Rachel, the person to be asking that question of is him, not us. If you're worried that he has had cancer and he is truly your friend, be honest with him and ask him directly. A colostomy bag is not a typical result of weight loss surgery but it may be that he developed some type of intestinal blockage after the surgery that required an ileostomy or colostomy. It may be that he needed to have intestinal surgery for some other reason but the fact is that only he and his doctor know why he needed it and you'll be left guessing unless you ask him.
To be honest, if I were your friend and found out that you were asking people on the internet if they thought I might have cancer instead of asking me directly, I'd be a little upset.

[Crone]

This is between my firiend and myself and nobody else on the this board.

Nope. That went out the window when you brought it here.

I am the one who brought up the fact you had less than 40 pounds to lose. I'm sure you struggled to lose it just like the rest of us do, but there is no way under the sun you can understand what it's like to know you have to lose the equivalent of one or more people off your body! Unless you've been there, there are aspects of morbid obesity that you cannot say you understand. And to even imply that someone did not try hard enough strikes a raw nerve with me, because if you haven't seen him in eight years, you can't know how hard he tried.

[Wyvrn]

I'd like to know how many people who have ended up having bariatric surgery were put on a well-supported ketogenic weight loss plan by their physician before making that decision?

Wyv

[JaneDough]

I'd like to know how many people who have ended up having bariatric surgery were put on a well-supported ketogenic weight loss plan by their physician before making that decision?

Wyv
Man, ain't that the 500lb question? When surgery was suggested to me, the doctor didn't even bother to ask if I'd ever tried to lose weight on my own. He went straight from "My, but you're a fatty" to "You'd probably qualify for a bypass; call this number".

Another thing - I know Rachel may not have phrased her comments delicately enough to appease everyone's sensibilities, but she apologized. How about accepting it graciously? She's obviously very affected by her friend's situation and not trying to push the War Zone's favorite hot button of late.

[ValerieL]

The problem with the question as to how many people were put on a ketogenic program before being referred to weight loss surgery is that most doctors think a ketogenic program is dangerous and ill-advised. To them it's like saying, trying them on a liquid fast first. We all know about the benefits of low-carbing but for the most part general society and doctors and nutritionists still think it's dangerous to our kidneys, liver and hearts because they think it's too high protein and that the fats will kill us.

I agree a well supported ketogenic program would be a good thing to try first, but the mecical community doesn't see that as a good, viable option yet.

[Wyvrn]

The problem with the question as to how many people were put on a ketogenic program before being referred to weight loss surgery is that most doctors think a ketogenic program is dangerous and ill-advised. To them it's like saying, trying them on a liquid fast first. We all know about the benefits of low-carbing but for the most part general society and doctors and nutritionists still think it's dangerous to our kidneys, liver and hearts because they think it's too high protein and that the fats will kill us.And for some reason, we just accept that these highly trained professionals routinely fail to advise patients of the advantages of a ketogenic diet even though its safety and efficacy is solidly supported by clinical research.

I'm not a litigious person, but if I had gotten my digestive system chopped up - permanantly impaired - at the advice of my physician and later found out that there was a far safer and healthier option, you can bet I'd be talking to my lawyer.

Wyv

[shortstuff]

I know two people who have had bypass surgery, without complications, and are currently eating a fairly low carb diet. They had their surgeries in two different states, two different doctors and the diet prescribed to them after their surgery was a low carb diet. One lady is very careful with what she eats, looks great and is very positive about her experience.

The second lady has her ups and downs. When she is following her diet correctly she's up, when she makes poor food choices, she's down.

I also know another lady who has been sent to the University of Pennsylvania to await bowel transplant surgery. She had the Roux-en-Y procedure and had many, many complications. She quite literally lived in a hospital here locally for over a year having one procedure after another to clear up infections and remove necrotic (dead) bowel tissue. This is a KNOWN complication of gastric bypass surgery. She's young, only in her late 30s and has to receive all of her nutrition by IV drip - she has no small bowel left.

When I see these horrible complications happen, I wonder how much more it's going to take before nutritionists and physicians will acknowledge that a ketogenic diet should be prescribed PRIOR to going to such extensive lengths. I realize many folks may also need counseling and emotional support to lose large amounts of weight, but it starts with a diet that is sustainable.

I couldn't survive on a low fat diet. I starved my way up to 193 pounds. I'm 4'11". A few more pounds and "I" would have been a candidate for gastric bypass surgery. Fortunately for me, a couple of good friens explained Atkins very well to me, got me to read the book and I then committed myself to a LC lifestyle.

[DietSka]

most doctors think a ketogenic program is dangerous and ill-advised
Yes, but isn't the post-op diet ketogenic anyway? Being mostly LC and having such small portions, it has to be...

[leslieam]

Yes, but isn't the post-op diet ketogenic anyway? Being mostly LC and having such small portions, it has to be...

From what I know about the procedure (and the fact that someone in my husband's family had it done), this is true. Our family member is 100% low-carb all the time.

This post got my attention and I'd like to post something to see what your thoughts are. There is a gentleman at my work who, I noticed, has lost a LOT of weight in two months. So the other day I stopped him and said "I wanted to tell you that you look great!". He then proceeds to tell me that he had gastric bypass. Now, this guy needed to lose way less than 100 lbs (I'd say 60 at the very most!). He has diabetes (sp?) and high blood pressure, though and that is how he qualified for the surgery. The surgery was a success for him in that his diabetes has cleared up (note - he's on a LC diet) and his blood presssure it under control w/o mediciation (LC, also I am sure).

This guy is in his early 30's, BTW.

I was honest-to-goodness shocked when he told me he had the surgery, becuase with our family memeber, she was 350+ lbs at the time of her surgery. I thought the surgery was for people very overweight, and I told him that (gently, of course). He said that he qualified for the surgery b/c of his diabetes and high BP and that his surgery was like a medical trial.

For those of you more knowledgeable about this procedure - what is your take on this? Because it kind-of worried me that someone with just 60 lbs to lose (but with health issues and I'll give you that) could have this surgery.

Sorry if this is somewhat off topic from the original post but I'm very interested to see your answers - especially Val, as she's had the surgery before (and congrats, BTW on your weight loss. That's awesome!!!!)

[ojoj]

I'd say its a money-maker Leslie

Jo

[Crone]

I am currently seriously considering WLS, and have done quite a bit of research. The guidelines usually are at least 100 pounds overweight, and a BMI of 40 or above. Some doctors will agree to the surgery if the BMI is a little bit lower - in the high 30s. Those are just the general guidelines, and your friend's doctor may have felt he was a candidate without having met those because of his medical problems.

[hollygrl25]

As someone who only needs to lose about 15 pounds, I cannot even imagine the hurt and frustration one faces when trying to lose a large amount of weight. I know a few people who have lost over 100 pounds and kept it off, and they tell me that they still worry every day about putting it back on and will have to closely monitor what they eat for the rest of their lives...they have enormous dedication to remain healthy because they know how hard it was to lose the weight and keep it off, and I can understand how I would feel if I were in that position.

However, I also know at least 2 obese people who are growing larger by the day. One I see in the McDonalds drivethrough every time I am there, and the other is confined to a motorized wheelchair b/c she has grown FAR to large to walk. Now please do not misunderstand what I am saying...I am not judging these people, but I can say I KNOW they are not even TRYING to be healthy. The lady in the wheelchair comes in (I work at Shoppers she is a regular customer) and buys bags and bags of chips and pop and chocolate...and her daughter (who is always there with her) is also quite over weight for her age. I can't help but think...wouldn't someone who is in this predicament realize what she is doing to her poor daughter? I am not even talking about being overweight here...I'm talking about at least setting a good example for her daughter...getting her into good eating habits and exercising?

There ARE certain people that you know are not even trying (at least in her friends case he was dieting so that was different..it suggests he WAS trying) to be healthier. It would bother me if I was an overweight individual and was working hard to be healthy and trying to lose weight to see people like this who honestly don't care. It is overweight people that keep eating WAY too much junk and not exercising that makes people assume that people are overweight b/c they choose to be.

Hope this didn't offend anyone, just my thoughts...congrats to you ALL...being on this forum means you have adopted a healthier WOE which is esential no matter how much weight you need to lose!!

[hollygrl25]

I'm sorry I was only reading the first page of the thread..this was in relation to the attack on rachel!! sorry it appears so off topic now...

[fourkids]

(I work at Shoppers she is a regular customer) and buys bags and bags of chips and pop and chocolate...

You know, there were times when I weighed 318 pounds when I'd be buying chips or chocolate for a kids birthday (or even an adult) party, and I'd tell myself I was being paranoid for thinking that the cashier was actually noticing what I was buying and thinking THAT was why I was so fat, and it was obviously my own fault.

Sometimes the chips WERE for me, but it still makes me feel a little sad to know I wasn't being paranoid, after all. Sometimes people really are checking out our carts, then making a decision about whether it's our 'fault' or not.

I don't think Holygirl intends to be mean by what she posted, of course, but it's still feels a bit like finding out that what you thought might have been just an urban myth, is actually true.

[potatofree]

It makes me wonder if skinny people buying junk food get the same reaction. I have an acquaintance who works in the store, and now that I think of it, the only time I ever hear a comment out of her is when one of several obese customers come in and buys junk.

Although, it's funny that I've only actually heard a comment out LOUD from a clerk when it was a skinny person ahead of me buying bags of chips, doughnuts, etc... She said "Wow, it sure must be nice to be able to eat ALL THAT!" then laughed. How did she know that the girl wasn't, in fact, bulemic or something? I guess since our fat is so very visible, our problems are out there for everyone to see and draw conclusions on.

[Lisa N]

You know, there were times when I weighed 318 pounds when I'd be buying chips or chocolate for a kids birthday (or even an adult) party, and I'd tell myself I was being paranoid for thinking that the cashier was actually noticing what I was buying and thinking THAT was why I was so fat, and it was obviously my own fault.

The problem with judging someone by what's in their cart is that you can in no way know who those items are for. You can assume that they are for the person who is actually buying them, but we all know what tends to happen when we assume, right? ;)

For example, I'm in charge of buying the Sunday School and after-church coffee and cookie supplies. So, every week, I'm in the store buying several packages of cookies. I'm in this store frequently so it's quite possible that the cashiers there are clicking their tongues as I walk out with my purchase, saying to themselves, "No wonder she's so large!" but they would be wrong, wouldn't they? ;)
Life is too short to worry about what total strangers think of you and your food purchases. ;)

[hollygrl25]

Let me clarify what I meant. I work in every department of the store...have been there for 3 years while I am going to school and trust me, I am so used to my job I won't notice half the things I scan through for people. What people buy is their own business and I don't ever judge them. When I say she buys chips, I mean her AND her daughter have opened the bags and started eating before they even left the store. And this is EVERY time she is in...which is a lot. I realize that there could be a lot of explanations for her weight (medical etc)...all I am saying is this is certainly NOT something you want your daughter to inherit. This little girl is now in the habit of picking up a few treats for the night every time she is in with her mother. She is very friendly and we always chat while I am ringing her through...and she tells me they are for her for later.

I have binge days myself (who doesn't?) but I was just trying to say that I think it is people who are not willing to change their unhealthy eating habits who are giving people the impression that they are overweight by choice (which I realize is not always the case).

For all of those who are afraid to check out with candy, fear not the cashier!! This is just an extreme situation and the only reason I even noticed is because I have been there for ages and she is a regular customer.

[potatofree]

It's still a matter of being fat "by choice", though. If you've ever been in the throes of carbohydrate addiction to the degree that you'd eat yourself immobile, it doesn't FEEL like a choice to eat those chips. Yes, everyone has the basic capacity to limit food consumption, but whether for medical/metabolic OR emotional disorders that mess with that mechanism, some people aren't able to save themselves FROM themselves without drastic forms of intervention. That's where gastric bypass can come in.

I mean, think about it. Without an underlying condition affecting the hungry/full mechanism, would someone actually CHOOSE to eat until they feel sick, harm their health, and become the kind of sideshow people really seem to get a kick out of wagging a shaming finger at?

[Judynyc]

I mean, think about it. Without an underlying condition affecting the hungry/full mechanism, would someone actually CHOOSE to eat until they feel sick, harm their health, and become the kind of sideshow people really seem to get a kick out of wagging a shaming finger at?


:agree: This was me as I was gaining all those pounds that got me to be, at my high, 287 lbs. I was carb addicted and eating compulsively to push down anger/sadness/ more anger......I could not stop eating..and when I did finish all the pasta that I had cooked, then I'd go eat a pint of ice cream.....it all would just lay in my stomach and I could not sleep as it layed there. Some nights it came back up on me because I have a hyetal hernia....I hated myself and everything I was doing to myself.....and yet I could not stop. It was a nasty vicious cycle.

Please know that I desperately wanted to stop....I tried for 15 yrs to get a handle on my compulsive eating with very little to no success. It took alot of years in therapy before I got to a place where I had looked my demon in the eye and killed him off. This was my time for success.

Some people just cannot stop eating.....for those that do get bypass surgery and don't deal with their issues, I fear that they won't have long term success. This makes me very sad for them. Its not just about low carb and is about an emotional component too.

[ValerieL]

I've never been a drug addict, and when I see one, whether on a TV show or on the news or in real life or whatever, I have to admit that I don't understand. How can they keep taking the drugs that are obviously killing them? I don't understand cutting or anorexia or any number of other issues people struggle with either. All issues that if you don't have them, look like they are a matter of choice. Just choose NOT to do whatever the behaviour is.

However, I'm smart enough or aware enough or whatever to know that one doesn't choose pain and humiliation freely. Something drives them. I don't understand what, but it must be there. So, I think to judge that they aren't trying hard enough to kick the drugs or stop starving themselves or whatever is insensitive. The same goes for food. Call it an emotional addiction, a physiological addiction to carbs or whatever the hell it is, there is some driving force that compells us to overeat even when we are dying inside from pain, fear and humiliation at our weight. Never assume we didn't care. We cared, we obsessed over it, we cried at night, we judged ourselves a hundred more times harshly than you ever will. I've called myself the most disgusting names for my lack of will power to stay on a diet. I can't understand why I continued to eat in the face of all that pain any more than you can, but know for sure it wasn't because I wasn't trying hard enough or didn't care.

When I said earlier that a well supported ketogenic diet probably should be tried before weight loss surgery, I meant it, but to take it from there and say it's an offence worth suing over to have not had that suggested by the doctor is going too far in my opinion. Ketogenic diets are great, for me. And obviously for a lot of other people too. But the aren't a magic bullet for everyone in my experience. Lots of people fail on them. Lots. Go to the member list for this site and see how many people don't post anymore. Sure, some may have moved on and still lost weight, but MOST will have failed in their attempt to lose weight. And don't say it's because they didn't try hard enough on LC, that goes back to the argument above. We tend to forget LC isn't THE ANSWER because it has been the answer for us, but it's really not fair to judge everyone because they haven't had the success we have had with it.

Someone asked what I thought of WLS for those with less than morbid obesity but who had it for diabetes. I don't know really. I'm not a proponent of WLS, remember, I FAILED with it. I lost 120 lbs originally and regained 80 of it, and was still gaining when I found low-carb.

I just hate to see it dismissed out of hand because we've had some success with LC. I think to assume that obesity is a problem with only one answer is incredibly wrong and simplistic. Lots of people have had success with low fat, lots have had success with WLS, lots have had success with portion control, lots have had success with LC. Why do all the other methods have to be wrong just because I've found success with LC? My boyfriend is a low-fat guy. He lost weight (and keeps it off) with low fat. He eats tons of rice and bread everyday with his lean proteins and keeps fat down to a low level. I don't have to convince him he's eating wrong, it WORKS for him.

If the diabetic can't control his diabetes without the WLS, and the WLS will work to control it without insulin or blood sugar problems, maybe it is a good idea. Surgery isn't always a bad option to fix a problem. People laser their eyes everyday rather than wear contacts and there is always a risk of blindness with that operation. Why is that a lot different than having WLS to cure your diabetes?

Val

[Wyvrn]

When I said earlier that a well supported ketogenic diet probably should be tried before weight loss surgery, I meant it, but to take it from there and say it's an offence worth suing over to have not had that suggested by the doctor is going too far in my opinion.It's not about the money, it's about changing what is considered by the medical industry to be the acceptable protocol and saving lives and people's health, which is what doctors should be doing.
Ketogenic diets are great, for me. And obviously for a lot of other people too. But the aren't a magic bullet for everyone in my experience. Lots of people fail on them..Lots of people appear to be very poorly informed on just how to go about it, the science behind, what is and isn't healthy to eat - look at all the people here who still think saturated fats are unhealthy. What if people could get good information and solid support for ketogenic dieting from their doctors, instead of having to figure it all out for themselves from the endless conflicting information in the popular press and internet? It's amazing anyone succeeds, really. But I am not suggesting that WLS should not be available to anyone. But it truly should be a last resort.We tend to forget LC isn't THE ANSWER because it has been the answer for us, but it's really not fair to judge everyone because they haven't had the success we have had with it.I'm not judging people who have had WLS. I'm judging the medical industry. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it won't change unless we consumers stop accepting it.

Wyv

[ValerieL]

It's not about the money, it's about changing what is considered by the medical industry to be the acceptable protocol and saving lives and people's health, which is what doctors should be doing.

Lots of people appear to be very poorly informed on just how to go about it, the science behind, what is and isn't healthy to eat - look at all the people here who still think saturated fats are unhealthy. What if people could get good information and solid support for ketogenic dieting from their doctors, instead of having to figure it all out for themselves from the endless conflicting information in the popular press and internet? It's amazing anyone succeeds, really. But I am not suggesting that WLS should not be available to anyone. But it truly should be a last resort.

I'm not judging people who have had WLS. I'm judging the medical industry. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it won't change unless we consumers stop accepting it.

Wyv

I don't share your pessimistic view of the medical profession. Perhaps it's my bias showing being Canadian where being a doctor isn't the money-making proposition it is in the States, but my experience is doctors want to help their patients. For most doctors, I believe that if they truly felt a ketogenic diet would do that better than WLS, they'd suggest it instead.

Saturated fats are unhealthy, according to mainstream medicine. I don't believe it personally, but until there are as many studies or more that debunk the myth as there are studies confirming the myth, we can hardly blame doctors for not believing us. Give it time, the truth will come out eventually as more and more studies control for carbs and prove that saturated fats aren't unhealthy. I don't believe the doctors KNOW saturated fats are healthy and CHOOSE to pretend they aren't to fool their patients into having WLS. The doctors might be wrong, but they honestly believe they are right, they aren't being malicious. Now, they lobbying groups, special interest groups that push a certain agenda, sure, they might be malicious, but that's not the doctors.

As for whether doctors will give patients a good well-supported ketogenic diet, well, that's interesting. There were those studies recently that suggested that while initial weight loss on low-carb was better than low-fat that after 6 months or a year, the weight loss was approximately the same in both groups (going by memory here folks, I might have a detail or two wrong). If I were a doctor without first hand knowledge of the benefits of low-carbing in taming my cravings and hunger, would I be particular if a patient tried low fat vs low carb? No, probably not. I'd say, you tried, it didn't work! Why would I think low-carb would work better?

I'm sorry if you thought I was criticizing you for judging WLS patients, I wasn't refering to you (or anyone in particular), just the culture of judgement we seem to have against obesity in the Western World. I didn't feel you were critical of WLS patients at all, I did get it was the doctors you felt upset with.

I do agree we need information. We need to educate doctors, we need more and better studies proving the benefits of low carb, we need a way to legitamize low carb after years of being the all you can eat meat diet, but I think it will take a while before that happens.

Val

[LC_Dave]

As someone is and was considered "Super-Hyper-Mega-Nintendo Obese" I thought I would give my 2 cents.

In relation to compulsive eating. I would that as I stacked on the pounds (after giving up on Weight Watchers) I became a lot more insulin resistent. I didn't know what insulin-resistent was at the time, I just knew I was a lot more hungrier, and I could no longer last for more than a day on Weight Watchers!
I believe that lead to a lot more compulsive eating - it was purely physical!

The trouble with choice is that I had never heard of Low Carb until the age of 25 (4 years ago). I lived in North Queensland Australia for most of my life. In our state it was a 21 hour drive to the capital city of our state Brisbane. Life tends to forget about you up there.

So it took me any years to get my head around low carb because of all the low fat dogma engrained in me and my family.

I've had sucess now (look at my stats) and I have been on Atkins since 25th July this year.

It wasn't a choice to be overweight since childhood! I took a lot of athsma drugs when I was little and the weight heaped on me! The doctors and experts just made out like I was lazy and a gluton!!


My position on WLS - is I don't believe in it and I will never have it for me.

but, I will not judge anyone who does it because theri circumstances are different to me,

Having been judged, put down and abused all my life, simply for being me,

I have never felt that I could be judgemental against another person and their weight issues, including someone with only 15 pounds to loose!

[Wyvrn]

I don't share your pessimistic view of the medical profession. Perhaps it's my bias showing being Canadian where being a doctor isn't the money-making proposition it is in the States, but my experience is doctors want to help their patients. For most doctors, I believe that if they truly felt a ketogenic diet would do that better than WLS, they'd suggest it instead.I think this is also mostly true in the US but there are plenty of docs who seem to be in it mainly for the money and prestige.
Saturated fats are unhealthy, according to mainstream medicine. I don't believe it personally, but until there are as many studies or more that debunk the myth as there are studies confirming the myth, we can hardly blame doctors for not believing us. Give it time, the truth will come out eventually as more and more studies control for carbs and prove that saturated fats aren't unhealthy.How much time, how many more people must die or have their health destroyed? I believe there is plenty of scientific evidence now... the evidence that sat fat is unhealthy is very thin, actually. It's become "common sense" but in a court of law the facts might trump common sense.I don't believe the doctors KNOW saturated fats are healthy and CHOOSE to pretend they aren't to fool their patients into having WLS. The doctors might be wrong, but they honestly believe they are right, they aren't being malicious.No, I don't believe they are being malicious either, but I do believe that it is their job to provide medical consumers with good information and for whatever reason they aren't doing it. We pay a huge percent of our incomes toward health care - even those of us who are healthy pay through the high cost of insurance and taxes to support Gov't funded health care programs.If I were a doctor without first hand knowledge of the benefits of low-carbing in taming my cravings and hunger, would I be particular if a patient tried low fat vs low carb? No, probably not. I'd say, you tried, it didn't work! Why would I think low-carb would work better?Because if non-medical people can understand the basic biochemistry that makes low-carbing work, you'd think someone who has an advanced degree in that stuff would understand it.
I'm sorry if you thought I was criticizing you for judging WLS patientsNo, I didn't think you were criticising me for that at all, I just wanted to make my position clear because I think it's important for people to at least consider demanding the quality health care we are paying for, using the legal system if necessary.
We need to educate doctors, we need more and better studies proving the benefits of low carb, we need a way to legitamize low carb after years of being the all you can eat meat diet, but I think it will take a while before that happens.This is really where I disagree. I don't think it's our job to educate doctors, it's their responsibility to learn what they need to make the best medical decisions for their patients. They have an enormous amount of authority, let them earn it. I also think there are plenty of studies supporting the safety and efficacy of low carb to justify using it as a preferred treatment for obesity. And as for it taking a while, it will take forever if we just passively continue to accept the status quo, thinking that change will naturally come about. There are powerful commercial interests fighting that change, it's not going to happen by itself.

Wyv

[ValerieL]

I don't think it's our job to educate doctors, it's their responsibility to learn what they need to make the best medical decisions for their patients. They have an enormous amount of authority, let them earn it. I also think there are plenty of studies supporting the safety and efficacy of low carb to justify using it as a preferred treatment for obesity.

Well, in a perfect world, sure. But we don't live in a perfect world, we live in a world where doctors graduate from med school and for the most part don't question what they've learned ever again. And I don't even think obesity registers much on the average doctor's radar. The complications from obesity, yes, high cholesterol, heart problems, diabetes, etc, etc. So they tell us to lose weight without even thinking about how really. They know the answer, and they tell us, eat less, exercise more. Simple (NOT).

I agree they SHOULD know more, learn more about obesity, seeing as it's a huge contributing factor to so many of those problems, but I'm not holding my breath. I think it will take years, decades, generations maybe before the high-carb dogma/myth is debunked to the doctors community as a whole and the general public as well.

Val