Clinton's vegetarian diet plugged his heart arteries?

[Kent]

Former President Bill Clinton has the "best" health care in the world, and it is absolutely free. So, why did he suddenly develop quadruple heart artery blockage requiring bypass surgery? The answer is simple. His doctors don't know that insulin causes heart disease. They never checked his insulin level. Clinton is just one of millions of people suffering from the AMA, AHA and USDA high-carb diet. President Clinton was very fond of Asian Indian vegetarian foods. Vegetarians in southern India have twice the heart disease rate of meat eating people in northern India. Some report say the rate is five time as bad for vegetarians and getting worse.

Exercise does NOT prevent heart disease. Bill Clinton was jogging with chest pains. Marathon runner James Fixx died at age 52 in his running shoes because of his vegetarian diet. Marathon runner Brian Maxwell, producer of the PowerBar, died of a heart attack at age 51 because of his high-carb diet. His bar is enough to give a healthy person heart disease. It is heavy in carbohydrates and bad fats.

Sick Willie and his heart of the matter - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-839419,curpg-1.cms)

Heart arteries that are partially blocked can be cleared with the proper diet and supplement program, but you can't find the answer at the Mayo Clinic, American Medical Association or American Heart Association. Check out my web page that describes how to avoid heart disease and reverse existing coronary artery disease. Print it out for friends and family.

Heart Attack, Reversing Coronary Artery Disease, Stent & Lowering Cholesterol. (http://www.biblelife.org/heart.htm)

Kent :wave:

[mrfreddy]

Former President Bill Clinton has the "best" health care in the world, and it is absolutely free. So, why did he suddenly develop quadruple heart artery blockage requiring bypass surgery? The answer is simple. His doctors don't know that insulin causes heart disease. They never checked his insulin level. Clinton is just one of millions of people suffering from the AMA, AHA and USDA high-carb diet. President Clinton was very fond of Asian Indian vegetarian foods. Vegetarians in southern India have twice the heart disease rate of meat eating people in northern India. Some report say the rate is five time as bad for vegetarians and getting worse.

Exercise does NOT prevent heart disease. Bill Clinton was jogging with chest pains. Marathon runner James Fixx died at age 52 in his running shoes because of his vegetarian diet. Marathon runner Brian Maxwell, producer of the PowerBar, died of a heart attack at age 51 because of his high-carb diet. His bar is enough to give a healthy person heart disease. It is heavy in carbohydrates and bad fats.

Sick Willie and his heart of the matter - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-839419,curpg-1.cms)

Heart arteries that are partially blocked can be cleared with the proper diet and supplement program, but you can't find the answer at the Mayo Clinic, American Medical Association or American Heart Association. Check out my web page that describes how to avoid heart disease and reverse existing coronary artery disease. Print it out for friends and family.

Heart Attack, Reversing Coronary Artery Disease, Stent & Lowering Cholesterol. (http://www.biblelife.org/heart.htm)

Kent :wave:


I thought slick willie was on the South Beach diet??? I don't think he was a vegetarian, unless I missed something? And of course, we all know about his fondness for fast food and cigars over the years (presumably he cut that out with the SB diet, but the damage was done...)

Anyway, it seems a little unfair to blaime these heart problems - Clinton, Fixx, Maxwell- on diet alone. There probably were other contributing factors - we all know Bill went through a period of intense stress, thanks to Mr. Starr and company...

[Lisa N]

Liking vegetarian dishes does not make you a vegetarian. When Clinton was in office, the press often poked fun of his love of all things fast food (particularly McDonalds and he wasn't going there just for the fries).
Too bad "Supersize Me" wasn't made yet at that time. ;)

It's also interesting to note that the doctors here are saying that it takes a long time for occluded cardiac arteries to form and yet Jody Gorran (with the help of PETA) is insisting that this happened to him in less than 2 years because of his allegedly following the Atkins diet. Whoops!

[mrfreddy]

i think it'll be very interesting to see what kind of diet changes are recommended to the ex-prez... will he stick with the SB plan? or will he fall for the low fat lies???

[Nancy LC]

I heard his cardiologist on the radio this morning, they're recommending LF. Doofuses!

[mio1996]

Yeah, you get bypass surgery and the doctors finish your cardiovascular system off with a lf diet. Good job, docs.

[Kent]

The Clinton reports are now claiming it was hereditary because of his mother. I am so sick of hearing this lame excuse. Plugged coronary arteries are not hereditary. Lifestyle, family favorite foods and family recipe books are hereditary. It is not in the genes. This is clearly proven in my relatives. Plugged coronary arteries are strictly diet related.

BTW, last time I checked fast food French fries were a vegetable.

The typical medical approach is to claim the arties are built up with plaque or cholesterol over a long period of time. This is possible, but the very fast accumulation of deposits are more likely. The deposits occur quickly as one moves from hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) to diabetes (high blood sugar). The blood insulin soars during this transition period. Insulin moves the small dense LDL particles into the blood vessel walls where they cause inflammation, etc. This is why so many people have great annual checkups but suddenly have a heart attack shortly thereafter. In the hospital they are also told they are diabetic.

Insulin was been shown to plug arteries in laboratory animals at least 50 year ago, maybe 80 year ago. The arteries plugged in a matter of days where the insulin was injected.

BTW, this is not the process described by the AHA or AMA because doing so would lead to the diet culprit behind the insulin surge --- CARBOHYDRATES. Blaming carbohydrates would crash the Food Pyramid Guide. The fraud goes on and on.

Concerning James Fixx and Brian Maxwell, their heart attacks were caused by diet. Fixx was a vegetarian but refused to take vitamin and mineral supplements. He was deficient in essential fatty acids, vitamins and protein. Both of them ate the typical very high carbohydrate diet recommended for marathon runners ---- for energy, you know. Well, as the insulin pushes the glucose into cells for energy it is also plugging the heart arteries. This doesn't happen when one is burning dietary fat for energy.

Kent :wave:

[Lisa N]

BTW, last time I checked fast food French fries were a vegetable.

Yes, which is why I pointed out that he wasn't going there just for the fries. I remember hearing that he also had a particular fondness for Big Macs as well which are hardly vegetarian. ;)

The typical medical approach is to claim the arties are built up with plaque or cholesterol over a long period of time. This is possible, but the very fast accumulation of deposits are more likely. The deposits occur quickly as one moves from hypoglycemia (low blood sugar) to diabetes (high blood sugar).

Kent, do you have any references to studies to back this up or is this just a theory?

[VickiP]

Yeah, you get bypass surgery and the doctors finish your cardiovascular system off with a lf diet. Good job, docs.


huh? These are a few of the top cardio doctors in the nation... Have performed heart surgery and helped people with heart problems before. I'm pretty sure if they recommend a low fat diet then it is probably for the better. But, I don't know, maybe you have a PHD from Harvard Med... Do you honestly think that eating a lot of fat is going to be good for someone who just had triple bypass surgery?

Some people who low carb spend so much time putting down other diets! A LC person gets wicked pissed hearing others put down LC but then will turn around and put down LF. Low carb isn't for everyone just like low fat isn't for everyone...

[Kestrel]

And just because someone had surgery, he should avoid fats?? Why?? If anything, perhaps they should be looking at the vegetable oils that would have been found in his various meals...

[fatburner]

huh? These are a few of the top cardio doctors in the nation... Have performed heart surgery and helped people with heart problems before. I'm pretty sure if they recommend a low fat diet then it is probably for the better. But, I don't know, maybe you have a PHD from Harvard Med... Do you honestly think that eating a lot of fat is going to be good for someone who just had triple bypass surgery?

Some people who low carb spend so much time putting down other diets! A LC person gets wicked pissed hearing others put down LC but then will turn around and put down LF. Low carb isn't for everyone just like low fat isn't for everyone...

I suppose it's pretty easy to claim that because research (well at least the older epidemiological statistical analyses) overwhelmingly seems to largely suggest low fat diets as being heart protective, then, well they must be right.
It wasn't just theologians who thought Galileo or Darwin or Newton or any of the other great scientific minds who turned accepted wisdom on its head, were dangerous fools. Most of their scientific colleagues thought so too. I actually am reassured that science is a pretty cautious business. Impulsive knee jerk change is never good. Nevertheless I would always rather be in the vanguard of scientifc discovery, particularly if it makes so much sense. Too often I hear scientists and lay people are like saying things like 'everybody' knows that saturated fat is a cardiovascular risk factor'. When you ask them why, you get the various versions of the many studies that finger sat fat but don't eliminate the complication of dietary carbohydrate. It's like saying that because plumbing problems are statistically associated with the attendance of plumbers, then plumbers must be a risk factor for plumbing problems.Time alone will tell wether you are just one of the conservative dietary theorists who can't quite believe that the huge juggernaut of medical and dietary science has got it so sadly and tragically wrong for so long. Unfortunately for slick Willie and the legions of other battlers who are likely to just believe the low fat nonsense, I have no doubt that what they need most of all is a high fat diet. But only, and this is such an important qualifier ( and I might add the most signifigant reason why science has so far missed the point) only if at the same time DIETARY CARBOHYDRATE IS DRASTICALLY REDUCED. High fat with high (or even 'moderate' carbohydrate just makes the inflammation caused by the carbohydrate/insulin even worse). Statistics is, I'm afraid, a very messy business, and it has needed the various low carb mavericks from Banting to Atkins and beyond to think are bit more laterally than conventional researchers, and see clearly how the statistics have lied so tragically.

[Lisa N]

Do you honestly think that eating a lot of fat is going to be good for someone who just had triple bypass surgery?

Better than a low fat/high carb diet unless President Clinton has a hankering to become a diabetic next.
A low fat diet following heart surgery is standard protocol and no matter how skilled the surgeon, the mortality rates following such surgeries when 3 vessel disease is present is fairly high (up to 50% at the 10 year mark). One would think that if the low fat diet was such as good treatment, especially when paired with revascularization of the heart through grafting, that there would be no further problems, but such is not the case.
I don't put down low fat diets because I'm pissed that people criticize low carb, I put them down because I've done my research and I believe they are a menace to the majority of the population. At the minimum, the track record for treatment with such diets following surgery (or even without surgery) isn't exactly stellar.

[tofi]

Maybe South Beach, which emphasizes LOW fat, isn't enough to counteract the genetic predisposition toward forming arterial plaque. I wonder if Atkins/PPP would have been more effective? With all the EFAs, you'd think the arteries might have cleared out more. But perhaps, SB did a partial job and he's lucky he didn't have an MI in the past year.

[Kent]

I'm not saying Bill Clinton was a true and faithful vegetarian. After all, Clinton has a reputation for cheating, but in all my reading about him I have never heard anything mentioned about eating meat. He was solidly supported by animal rights activists. Junk food with high fat is being blamed for his heart disease, not meat.

Vegetarians are constantly cheating by eating meat. I used to visit Dr. Andrew Weil's message board where the majority were vegetarian or near so. One proclaimed vegetarian said she had steak at her brother-in-laws the evening before and said, "It was delicious." I posted a reply saying, "A vegetarian eats steak? What is this?" Naturally she got furious. Cheating is expected among vegetarians. The more they cheat the healthier they are and the long they can stay on the vegetarian diet without becoming ill.

Low-carbers cheat also, but the result is the opposite. Cheating makes a low-carber sick while cheating makes a vegetarian well. A low-carb doctor can look at the patients triglyceride reading as a direct measurement of the amount of cheating they have been doing.

The Clintons' most likely have a strong vegetarian leaning with perhaps some exceptions like snails or caviar. Obviously, the diet that plugged his heart arteries was HIGH-CARB, and the diet his doctors are now keeping him on is HIGH-CARB.

Kent :wave:

[Lisa N]

I'm not saying Bill Clinton was a true and faithful vegetarian. After all, Clinton has a reputation for cheating, but in all my reading about him I have never heard anything mentioned about eating meat. He was solidly supported by animal rights activists. Junk food with high fat is being blamed for his heart disease, not meat.

I'm sorry, Kent, but eating vegetables from time to time doesn't make him a vegetarian, either. According to this link, some of his favorite foods contain meat (chicken and beef) and it's also known that he had a special fondness for Egg McMuffins and pork barbecue. Actually, one of the quotes I ran across while looking for the link below said, "Bill never met a meal he didn't like." ;)

http://clinton4.nara.gov/textonly/WH/kids/html/bill.html

[Faithnj]

Kent, yours was on truly interesting post. Are you just joking about this "Bill Clinton a vegetarian" thing? And the rest of us just didn't realize it was a joke, or what???

Kent, FYI, it was widely reported in the press that the last diet Bill Clinton was on was the South Beach Diet:

"He has lost weight over the past few months, saying he has gotten more exercise and has been on the South Beach diet."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/conditions/09/07/clinton.condition/

The press first took note of the fact that Bill Clinton was on South Beach because he appeared at the Democratic Convention looking remarkably slim and healthy. (Clinton said he'd lost 21 pds, I think.) In addition to that, the t.v. news has been showing numerous clips of Bill Clinton eating over the years, as a discussion of him having a large appetite. I don't ONCE remember seeing Bill in any of these clips with Indian vegetarian food. What I remember is him outside of McDonalds with a hamburger, and inside a Bar-b-que joint eating pulled pork with the masses.

And face it Ken-- Bill grew up in Hope, Arkansas. He grew up on meat and potatoes, fried chicken and greens and pork, eggs and bacon, just like the majority of Americans growing up before the 1980's. You could probably count the number of vegetarian Indian meals he's eaten on two hands. (Plus-- not all Indian food is vegetarian, anyway. Do you really think he passed up the Tandori Chicken for the Spinach Paneer?)

Why in the world you want to dream up some crazy idea that Clinton has heart disease BECAUSE he might have eaten some Indian food on occasion is absolutely beyond me. And what are you going to say next? Only vegetarians get heart disease? That's right, Ken! The only people in this world who get heart disease is vegetarians!!! Let's all just ban vegetables, and the people who eat them!!! Those sound like good titles for your next posts.

You surely have an interesting point of view, indeed.

Faith

[Kent]

Well I'll be darn. Maybe ole Bill did eat some meat once in a while. Thanks for the correction.

But I bet his doctors advise him to NOT eat red meat now.

Kent :wave:

[TwilightZ]

And face it Ken-- Bill grew up in Hope, Arkansas. He grew up on meat and potatoes, fried chicken and greens and pork, eggs and bacon, just like the majority of Americans growing up before the 1980's. You could probably count the number of vegetarian Indian meals he's eaten on two hands. (Plus-- not all Indian food is vegetarian, anyway. Do you really think he passed up the Tandori Chicken for the Spinach Paneer?)



To whatever degree or not vegetarian, along with everything else, Bill Clinton ate lots of crap all his life, i.e. the worst carbs and the worst fats. Regarding the South Beach diet, Arthur Agatston is a mainstream cardiologist who realized that Atkins was on to something with regard to weight loss, but Agatston does not understand the necessity of saturated fat in health. As Tofi said, South Beach is LOW-FAT.

[Faithnj]

Un huh, Twilight.

And my point is, whatever in heck the South Beach Diet is, it is NOT a VEGETARIAN diet. And whatever caused Bill Clinton's clogged arteries, it sure WASN'T because he followed an Indian VEGETARIAN diet-- as the poster of this thread, "Clinton's vegetarian diet plugged his arteries," implies.

Now you all can go argue the merits of South Beach vs. Atkins and Saturated Fats vs. Unsaturated Fats till the cows come home. You can even go on and on about what a shame it was that Bill ate french fries with his hamburgers or that he ate grits with his bacon and eggs if you want. (Though I'm sure there are other threads where these arguments are more to the point than this one.) I really don't care about those issues. My only point is that Bill Clinton was NOT a vegetarian, and certainly not an Indian vegetarain- so don't blame an occasional Indian dinner on this southern good ol' boy's ills. That's just misleading and flat out wrong with a capital "W." Lol!

Faith

[ItsTheWooo]

As Tofi said, South Beach is LOW-FAT.
South beach is not low fat.

South beach is moderate fat/moderate carb. It emphasizes a decrease in saturated fats and of the fats you do eat you are supposed to eat the politically correct ones (canola oils, nuts, etc).

[mcsblues]

No matter what your views are on diet, it is bad science (or not science at all) to state with apparent certainty that an individual such as Clinton, Fixx or Maxwell got sick or died as a result of their diet or exercise regime. What you can say is that their diet/exercise did not prevent their disease/death. Dr Atkins had a heart attack late in his life - can you say his diet caused that? Of course you can't - if you had access to his medical records you might find out it was caused by a virus, but in the absence of detailed knowledge of his condition, all you can say is whatever he had done in his life up to that point (including his diet), had not prevented it.

Think about it - If you were presented with a scientific study which disagreed with your ideas on diet, would you give it any credibility at all, if you discovered the study sample 'group' ... was one person? Then why would you take the example of one person's death or disease as "proof" when it appears to support your point of view?

We can certainly guess that Clinton's diet (whatever it was) and lifestyle were important factors that lead to his disease, but we cannot prove it.

We have all read the mounting evidence that living a reduced carb way of life and eating healthy fats is great for your health. But NO credible scientist (including Dr Atkins) would suggest that by living this way you will not ever have a heart attack (as Clinton was about to do) - there are genetic factors and (some) environmental factors outside of our control, and we clearly are yet to fully understand all there is to know about medicine. What they will say, is this is the best way we know to reduce your risk of CHD. And that, is why we should live this way, until there is better evidence presented to indicate we need to refine our WOL further.

Cheers,

Malcolm

[bluesmoke]

South Beach is moderate carbohydrate and moderate fat? Yeah right, by who's standards? If you are coming from a low fat perspective maybe, but it still supports thr "good carbs" myth and still demonizes saturated fats.
Nyah Levi

[Kent]

Most carbohydrates come from vegetable products such as fruit and grains.

No carbohydrates are found in animal flesh.

Some carbohydrates come from dairy products from milk.

Carbohydrates are digested to become blood glucose.

Blood glucose requires insulin to rid it from the blood.

Insulin moves glucose into cells to produce energy in the form of work and heat.

Insulin move blood triglycerides into body fat cells.

Insulin packs LDL cholesterol into the artery walls of the heart, neck and legs.

This happened to Bill Clinton proving he ate a lot of vegetable carbohydrates.

Therefore, Bill Clinton was a vegetarian in principle who may have eaten meat on occasion.

The high-carb diet is basically a vegetarian diet.

The low-carb diet is basically an animal diet.

Kent :wave:

[mcsblues]

Most carbohydrates come from vegetable products such as fruit and grains.

Sure

No carbohydrates are found in animal flesh.

Well no, liver has carbs, shellfish have carbs and of course processed meats have carbs - See how you get into trouble when you generalize?

Some carbohydrates come from dairy products from milk.

Carbohydrates are digested to become blood glucose.

Blood glucose requires insulin to rid it from the blood.

Insulin moves glucose into cells to produce energy in the form of work and heat.

Insulin move blood triglycerides into body fat cells.

Insulin packs LDL cholesterol into the artery walls of the heart, neck and legs.

Let's agree with all of that :)

This happened to Bill Clinton proving he ate a lot of vegetable carbohydrates.

Sorry but no. You do not know "this" happened to Bill Clinton. Arterial lesions can be caused in a variety of different ways. Once they exist blockages can occur regardless of LDL cholesterol levels. 'It' might have been the cause of Clinton's illness, but you have proved nothing.

Therefore, Bill Clinton was a vegetarian in principle who may have eaten meat on occasion.

Que?

The high-carb diet is basically a vegetarian diet.

The low-carb diet is basically an animal diet.

Your thesis - a man who lives on burgers, hotdogs and beer WILL get CHD because he is a vegetarian?? :lol:

Kent, I'm sure we agree about a lot of diet related things ... just don't run around claiming you can prove things you can't. You will end up giving all low carbers a bad name.

Cheers,


Malcolm :wave:

[Samuel]

Calling The South Beach diet responsible for Mr. Clinton's heart problem is nothing which I reject.

Dr. Atkins was asked once "How could low carb dieters make it with all the cholestrol they get?" His answer was "When you restrict your carbohydrate intake, your body digests cholestrol so it cannot harm you."

Most of the information which come from Atkins center never say "Fats are good for you" unless the phrase "within the low carb context" follows.

So, Atkins diet has never been to reject the claim that fats are harmful although heated debates some times may have led some people to believe so. Unfortunately most people on this forum prefer to say "calling fat harmful is baseless" instead of saying "It could be harmful except that this does not apply to us."

Acording to Atkins, there are two different methods to digest fats, the regular one which is the default and the "restricted carbs" one. If the body receives no more than a specific amount of carbs (50 grams on average) it proceeds with the second one. Otherwise the first one is used. The second method is safe and harmless to the heart.

The South beach diet has modified Atkins diet to an unuseful one. It does not restrict carbs enough to force the body to proceed with the second method, so unless you are very careful with your fat intake it can harm you.

[Trinsdad]

I really like reading Kent's posts. He is extremly informative and when faced with a correction he is quick to change.

I appreciate that kind of poster and will look forward to reading even more of his comments in the future.

I do have a question for him though. I was wondering if carbs from veggies and fruits are considered harmful if kept at low levels. I was always told they are a boon to the human body.

[hifive]

Plugged coronary arteries are not hereditary. Lifestyle, family favorite foods and family recipe books are hereditary. It is not in the genes. This is clearly proven in my relatives. Plugged coronary arteries are strictly diet related.

I'm sorry, Kent, but this is simply UNTRUE. Genetic factors are HUGE in the development of vascular disease. They are the one element of your risk that you cannot change. Your family may not have the genetic element of risk; but certain of your family members may have adopted lifestyles which have introduced separate, avoidable risk.

That said, modification of lifestyle (avoiding tobacco, controlling high blood pressure, blood LDL cholesterol and blood glucose, maintaining an exercise program) can ameliorate hereditary risk to a large extent.

And your leap from "insulin packs LDL into the walls of arteries" to "Therefore Bill Clinton ate a primarily vegetarian diet" is ridiculous. A more likely scenario is that Bill ate high-carb (priming his body with insulin) combined with high-fat (which was then packed away onto his artery walls). Populations who consume almost exclusively high-carb (rice) with low-fat (fish) have little obesity or coronary artery disease (eg, the traditional Japanese and Chinese diets). Introducing high-fat foods into the high-carb diet produces obesity and coronary artery disease (as is happening with the Chinese, with the advent of McDonald's and other abominations into their culture).

I think low-carb provincial thinking is as offensive, and foolish, as low-fat bigotry. And it apparently seems to twist the brain into stunning feats of illogic.

Lucy

[Kent]

Originally Posted by Trinsdad

I really like ready Kent's posts. He is extremly informative and when faced with a correction he is quick to change.

I appreciate that kind of poster and will look forward to reading even more of his comments in the future.

I do have a question for him though. I was wondering if carbs from veggies and fruits are considered harmful if kept at low levels. I was always told they are a boon to the human body.

Thanks, Trinsdad. To begin to understand nutrition and health one must first simply erase his brain and start over by studying principles of human anatomy and physiology. This is extremely difficult because the truth can only be found in bits and pieces through extensive searching. Major nutritional and medical website are worthless because they are awash with old dogma based on agendas and fraud. Dr. Atkins' website is an excellent resource by searching the “Science behind Atkins.”

Nutrition resources have been corrupted by food manufacturers who for the most part turn out a zillion different kinds of packaged carbohydrates. This is why the Food Pyramid Guide is based on 60% of calories coming from carbohydrates while the scientific requirement is ZERO.

Medicine has been corrupted by pharmaceutical companies. Many doctors have been relegated to drug salesmen. They diagnosis the health problem and write out a prescription recommended by pharmaceutical company to alleviate the symptoms.

The human mind is easily tricked, actually the process is brainwashing. As an example, people believe some theory about hereditary that simply is not true. The nutritional and professional associations blame it on the genes when they don’t have an explanation that fits their agenda. As an example, Bill Clinton’s coronary heart disease is not hereditary. Bill Clinton’s doctors will never say his heart disease was caused by the excessive consumption of fruit and grains, but it was. Pigging out on carbs is the cause, but his doctors are blaming it on dietary fat and genes. His fat gut showed he is severely insulin resistant. He is somewhere between hypoglycemic and the first stage of Type 2 diabetes. He must not be at the second stage of Type 2 diabetes, which is insulin dependency, because his doctors would probably say so. A 5 hour glucose tolerance test would show his real condition. BTW, Atkins’ new diabetes book is awesome.

Check out my website for references and links. This page is a good start:

Top Ten Nutritional Myths, Distortions and Lies That Will Destroy Your Heath. (http://www.biblelife.org/myths.htm)

I posted a link to my heart disease web page in the starting post for this thread. I suspect that few people bothered to read it.

Kent :wave:

[Kent]

Orginally Posted by mcsblues.

Well no, liver has carbs, shellfish have carbs and of course processed meats have carbs - See how you get into trouble when you generalize?

This strikes me as funny. You found 3 grams of carbs in liver and 1 gram in an oyster. LOL This is a riot. :lol:

Yes, I always generalize. It cuts to the heart of the matter. The younger generation never wants to state anything as absolute fact. That way they always have an escape.

I ask a clerk at the bank if absolute truth existed. She said, "No." I said, "Are you absolutely sure?" Her eyes glazed without an answer, and her brain literally locked up. :lol:

Kent :wave:

[ItsTheWooo]

South Beach is moderate carbohydrate and moderate fat? Yeah right, by who's standards? If you are coming from a low fat perspective maybe, but it still supports thr "good carbs" myth and still demonizes saturated fats.
Nyah Levi
South beach diet does not ask people to restrict fat. By most people's standards it is a fat-adequate diet. Just because it isn't like 50% fat doesn't mean it's a low fat diet.

[Faithnj]

I really like ready Kent's posts. He is extremly informative and when faced with a correction he is quick to change.....
Hmmmm. Trinsdad, I think right now you might be very much in danger of "*drinking the Kool-Aid." Sounds like somebody needs a course or two in critical thinking. http://www.criticalthinking.org/

But if that's asking to much, let's just start with the dictionary, shall we?
Following are a few definitions of the word "vegetarian." (see www.dictionary.com) As you might notice, even though a lot of people who eat chicken and fish want to CALL themselves "vegetarians," they ARE NOT in fact, vegetarians, any more than a fish is in fact a vegetable! Perhaps the many fish and chicken eaters who call themselves vegetarians are partially responsible for your confusion. If they would only look up the word "vegetarian" in a dictionary, they would know they are not vegetarians-- they are simply carnivores or omnivores who want to appear as if they eat more veggies than the "Average Joe." (Also see the definitions for "Poseur" and "Liar.") However, you don't have to be a victim of your own lack of knowledge in this area. You don't have to allow other people to mislead you. When people try to convince you of things that seem a bit suspicious, all you have to do is open up the dictionary for yourself. Here...I'll give you a head start:

veg·e·tar·i·an (vhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gifjhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif-târhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/emacr.gif-http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifn)
n.One who practices vegetarianism.
adj.1. Of or relating to vegetarianism or vegetarians.
2. Consisting primarily or wholly of vegetables and vegetable products.
Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=ahsmd): The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002,
Main Entry: 2vegetarian
Function: adjective
1 : of or relating to vegetarians
2 : consisting wholly of vegetables, fruits, and sometimes eggs or dairy products <a vegetarian diet>
Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/medical/aboutmwmed.html): Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


vegetarian\Veg`e*ta"ri*an\, n. One who holds that vegetables and fruits are the only proper food for man. Strict vegetarians eat no meat, eggs, or milk.
Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=web1913): Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA,
Inc.

vegetarian
n : eater of fruits and grains and nuts; someone who eats no meat or fish or (often) any animal products
Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=00-database-info&db=wn): WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University



Trinsdad--
Best wishes as you go forth in search of good health and the truth!
And remember, even though it may be very hard to find sometimes, it's the truth that sets you free. Remember the Jonestown Massacre. Don't let anyone talk you into "drinking the Kool-Aid."


Faith ;)
*http://www.wordspy.com/words/drinktheKool-Aid.asp

[ItsTheWooo]

Most carbohydrates come from vegetable products such as fruit and grains.

No carbohydrates are found in animal flesh.

Some carbohydrates come from dairy products from milk.

Carbohydrates are digested to become blood glucose.

Blood glucose requires insulin to rid it from the blood.

Insulin moves glucose into cells to produce energy in the form of work and heat.

Insulin move blood triglycerides into body fat cells.

Insulin packs LDL cholesterol into the artery walls of the heart, neck and legs.

This happened to Bill Clinton proving he ate a lot of vegetable carbohydrates.

Therefore, Bill Clinton was a vegetarian in principle who may have eaten meat on occasion.

The high-carb diet is basically a vegetarian diet.

The low-carb diet is basically an animal diet.

Kent :wave:
Kent, you are really reaching here when you say that Clinton is a vegetarian because he ate a crappy diet and got sick. You are overlooking two things...

1) Eating sugar does not make you a vegetarian, and not all vegetarians eat a lot of sugar. Yes, sugar is found from plant-based food sources, however this does not mean a true vegetarian diet is rich in sugar. Plants contain other stuff besides carbs. From plants you can also get healthy fat (nuts, pure raw monosaturated essential fats (not that oxidized deep fried processed fat crap that a lot of meat eaters and even LCers eat), minerals and enzymes) and protein (particularly soy) as well. THe fact that there are many vegetarian low carbers disproves your assertion that to be vegetarian precludes eating a lot of sugar/carbs/unhealthy food. A vegetarian diet is not necessarily synonymous with rice and bread anymore than a LC diet is synonymous with blackened low quality deep fried meats treated with nitrites.

Furthermore, the inclusion of a high quantity of refined carbohydrates in ones diet does not exclude the possibility for lots of meat, too. It is entirely possible to eat a lot of sugar while also eating quite a lot of meat, especially if one is overweight (which implies over eating), the two are not mutually exclusive. For example, I ate a ton of starch before I lost weight, but I also was eating a lot of meat (probably more than I do now). I have always been a carnivore and preferred steak to potatoes. According to you, I must have been a vegetarian simply because of the volume of crappy starchy/sugary food I was eating.

2) There are more ways to damage your health besides eating too many carbs. Fats damaged by oxidation (overcooking as in frying on your kitchen stove, or simply being burned in the oven... especially if you consume a lot of PUFAs as these fats are fragile) and hydrogenation are good examples. Chemically treated processed meats are another example. You are really oversimplifying things when you blame it all on carbs. These things - which are often found in non-carbohydrate foods - certainly could contribute to a decline in health. It is totally irrational to conclude that the sickness was caused by carbohydrate alone, since there are numerous dietary, lifestyle, and even hereditary factors which predispose and encourage disease.

[Trinsdad]

Hmmmm. Trinsdad, I think right now you might be very much in danger of "*drinking the Kool-Aid." Sounds like somebody needs a course or two in critical thinking. http://www.criticalthinking.org/

But if that's asking to much, let's just start with the dictionary, shall we?



First off, don't be an ass. I contribute to this board as much as anyone and try to respect those that deserve a little respect. You don't even know me, and yet you feel confident enough to come in with that kind of attitude towards me.

Everyone here has a different opinion, and whether I belive someones opinion or not makes me no less of a "critical thinker."

I can appreciate theories from all aspects and people. What I can't appriciate being written to like I was an idiot.

Well I'll be darn. Maybe ole Bill did eat some meat once in a while. Thanks for the correction.

But I bet his doctors advise him to NOT eat red meat now.

Kent :wave:


By the way. This is what I was refering to.

I was impressed that Kent realized that Clinton wasn't on a Vegitarian Diet and said "thanks for the correction."

Unbeliveable...

[Faithnj]

......Everyone here has a different opinion, and whether I belive someone's opinion or not makes me no less of a "critical thinker." You're right. Everyone here does have a different opinion. There are opinions, and then there is research and there are facts. I like to listen to different opinions. But I'm not in the habit of just believing someone else's opinions without first thinking about what they are saying, and then if time allows, researching what they are saying. (And Kent's opinions on Bill Clinton being a vegetarian et al, deserve more than a little thought, to say the least.)

However, I think that the real problem we have here is that you read one of Kent's earlier posts that seemed to reflect an honest change in his opinion. I, too, was charmed by that particular post, and Kent's seeming openness to change. Well, News Flash: Kent flip-flopped. Perhaps you simply missed his follow-up post that includes "Therefore, Bill Clinton was a vegetarian in principle who may have eaten meat on occasion." ? (If you missed that one, you've gotta read it. Perhaps then, you'll understand why I had thought you were drinking the Kool-Aidl!)

By the time you complemented Kent on his change of heart, Kent had already spun around and changed direction faster than Serena Williams in a pair of black sneakers. (All the same, advantage Capriati, right?) My guess is that you just missed his follow-up post. I can't, in good conscious, blame you for not keeping up with a turnabout done at that speed....Plus, who could have seen it coming?

All the same, Trinsdad-- something tells me that you are in fact a "critical thinker." I was alarmed by Kent's post, so I was being more than a bit snarky. I apologize.

Faith
Oh...And by the way, you look absolutely fabulous! And what a beautiful wife and children, too! You REALLLLLY didn't deserve my snarkiness. Keep up the good work!

[TwilightZ]

Un huh, Twilight.

And my point is, whatever in heck the South Beach Diet is, it is NOT a VEGETARIAN diet. And whatever caused Bill Clinton's clogged arteries, it sure WASN'T because he followed an Indian VEGETARIAN diet-- as the poster of this thread, "Clinton's vegetarian diet plugged his arteries," implies. Faith

Sorry, I forgot what the initial post was in this thread. I was also posting in another Clinton thread and got them mixed up.

[ItsTheWooo]

Thanks, Trinsdad. To begin to understand nutrition and health one must first simply erase his brain and start over by studying principles of human anatomy and physiology. This is extremely difficult because the truth can only be found in bits and pieces through extensive searching. Major nutritional and medical website are worthless because they are awash with old dogma based on agendas and fraud. Dr. Atkins' website is an excellent resource by searching the “Science behind Atkins.”

Nutrition resources have been corrupted by food manufacturers who for the most part turn out a zillion different kinds of packaged carbohydrates. This is why the Food Pyramid Guide is based on 60% of calories coming from carbohydrates while the scientific requirement is ZERO.

Medicine has been corrupted by pharmaceutical companies. Many doctors have been relegated to drug salesmen. They diagnosis the health problem and write out a prescription recommended by pharmaceutical company to alleviate the symptoms.

I do agree with much of what you are saying. We're being told to eat all these cereal grains that are nothing but raw sugar energy... why? Even if we assume that the body has a "minimum requirement" for carbohydrate like many of them believe, why eat cereals and grains (refined ones at that) when you could eat things like plums, dates, and other fruits (which are rich in antioxidants, enzymes, minerals, etc)? There is nothing nutritionally redeeming about grains. The whole grains (very very few people eat true whole grains and they are very hard to prepare as they are inedible in their more natural state) do have enzymes and minerals and what not, but in order to make grains convenient and palatable these nutrients are processed out.
The average person is eating highly refined carbohydrate foods because they think bread and pasta and rice are good for them.

The damage from this poor diet is then "controlled" with symptom-masking medicines. It's sad. Businesses are capitalizing off of our sickness.

The human mind is easily tricked, actually the process is brainwashing. As an example, people believe some theory about hereditary that simply is not true. The nutritional and professional associations blame it on the genes when they don’t have an explanation that fits their agenda. As an example, Bill Clinton’s coronary heart disease is not hereditary. Bill Clinton’s doctors will never say his heart disease was caused by the excessive consumption of fruit and grains, but it was. Pigging out on carbs is the cause, but his doctors are blaming it on dietary fat and genes. His fat gut showed he is severely insulin resistant. He is somewhere between hypoglycemic and the first stage of Type 2 diabetes. He must not be at the second stage of Type 2 diabetes, which is insulin dependency, because his doctors would probably say so. A 5 hour glucose tolerance test would show his real condition. BTW, Atkins’ new diabetes book is awesome.


There are two factors which determine whether or not you get a disease. Factor one is environment (i.e. eating a lot of carbs). Factor two is heredity, your genetic potential. The combination of your unique environment and your unique genes results in you, all of you, including your diseases.

Perhaps you are trying to say that we are not genetically different enough for heredity to be that strong of a factor in onset of disease. In your opinion, then, there is no one walking on with a really strong predisposition to develop CHD, who will develop it if he is eating properly. There are only people who guzzle beer and eat cheetoes and too much sweet fruit/juice and get CHD.

I disagree. I do believe a diet that would allow a person with low genetic susceptibility to remain healthy is the same diet that would allow another with high predisposition to become sick with CHD. All diet and lifestyle can do is slow the onset, minimize the damage.

I look at it like this. If humans lived forever, we would all eventually catch every disease there is. But we don't live forever, so we usually die before getting most of them. Disease and genetic predisposition work together to increase the rate at which we get sick. They are factors which work to speed up the rate at which we expire. Whereas it is likely you would die before your system malfunctioned and developed that particular disease, heredity and lifestyle work together to increase the odds so that it's likely you develop the disease even within our very limited lifespan. Someone with high resistance to diabetes but poor diet might not get diabetes at all, or only get it in very old age. Or, someone with low resistance but a very good diet might stave off diabetes until old age as well. On the other hand, someone with both lower resistance and the same diet might get diabetes at 30.

THe fact of the matter is, kent, that unique familial genetic elements which predispose people to diseases have been identified. Native Americans and Mexicans are famous for their strong familial predisposition to diabetes. The genetic elements responsible have been partially identified by science. When they eat properly (that is very low carb and high fat), they might not get diabetes at all or perhaps not until very old. But, when they don't eat properly, they get diabetes very very young. Your average white person eating the same or similar diet would not get diabetes until much later due to his stronger genetic resistance.

So yes, heredity is a very strong factor. It might not condemn you to diet of heart disease, but it makes it much easier for you to get it unless you are careful.

[eve25]

in all my reading about him I have never heard anything mentioned about eating meat
i never read anything about him brushing his hair but i am sure he does it. oh and he used to eat cheesesteaks when he came to philly

Vegetarians are constantly cheating by eating meat.

i was a vegetarian for 7 years and never once, ever, EVER even tasted meat. but thats right, you, admittedly, generalize a LOT.

[Kent]

Originally Posted by Faithnj

As you might notice, even though a lot of people who eat chicken and fish want to CALL themselves "vegetarians," they ARE NOT in fact, vegetarians, any more than a fish is in fact a vegetable! Perhaps the many fish and chicken eaters who call themselves vegetarians are partially responsible for your confusion.

Faithnj, technically you are correct according to the dictionary, but as you admit, in practice people call themselves vegetarians even though they eat chicken and fish. Dr. Andrew Weil seems to fall into this category. Vegetarians love his books and website even though he strongly recommends eating fish, especially salmon. He repeatedly recommends against eating red meat. Many people call themselves vegetarian because they avoid eating red meat. Others list exceptions to the true vegetarian diet but still call themselves vegetarians, like lacto-vegetarians. Many eat a highly vegetarian diet but don't call themselves vegetarians. Bill Clinton may be in this category.

Even so, cheating among vegetarians is almost universal, but as usually, there is always the few exceptions.

The meaning of words change over time and dictionaries are revised according. English grammar is in a constant state of change. The word vegetarian is one of those cases.

Kent :wave:


.

[eve25]

This happened to Bill Clinton proving he ate a lot of vegetable carbohydrates.

Therefore, Bill Clinton was a vegetarian in principle who may have eaten meat on occasion.

The high-carb diet is basically a vegetarian diet.


he was a "vegetarian" because he ate a lot of grain???? thats one of the stupidest things i ever heard (but pretty funny too, though). even if that WAS true, it doesnt matter, its likely the person with the high carb, HIGH FAT diet would have the health problems (which is pretty much how he ate from what i have seen).

when i was a vegetarian, i weighed 200 pounds and was a size 12-14. i didnt eat all that great (lots of bread and cheese sandwiches and pizza and pasta) but not much sugar. i had SO MUCH energy and great cholesterol and perfect blood pressure, no aches and pains, nothing. when i added the meat back in, i upped to 300 lbs in 1 year. so i guess you COULD say, it was the meat, right??????? well obviously NO...it was the combination. COMBINATION!! i was still eating super high carbs but i started eating super high fat too.

It is not in the genes. This is clearly proven in my relatives. Plugged coronary arteries are strictly diet related.

my father had a heart attack when he was 39. he was in good health, not overweight, no high cholesterol, didnt smoke, excercised, etc. he was, in fact, running his few miles/day as it happened. as far as i know what the docs think is that he just has a lot of extra calcium in his body as he also gets kidney stones. you just cant oversimplify every problem.

[Faithnj]

Kent-- one minute you use the example of Indian vegetarians to substantiate your claims about a commitment to vegetarianism being the only possible reason for Clinton to have had clogged arteries. And then in the next minute you conveniently ignore the millions of Indian vegetarians who are vegetarians for religious and cultural reasons, and don't cheat because 1) It goes against their religion. 2) they don't have easy access to meat foods. It's not like their mommies are cooking beef at home on the sly. And 3) they have been vegetarians all their lives, and would be as likely to have a craving for something they have never tasted as the average American would be likely to crave snails or worms.

You seem to think that because it suits your theories, you can change the definition of any word you want? Regardless of how it applies to the world at large? Simply because you know a few westerners who say they have adopted a vegetarian lifestyle, but then go back to their meat eating roots? Ohhhh, I see. You seem to believe that if you lie long enough, the lie becomes the truth, and you just want to make this "Bill Clinton is a vegetarian" thing so. Uhhhh....and if I call you a "mis-leader," then that makes you George W. Bush too, right? You should be so slick! But it seems to me that if you lie and say that omnivores or carnivores are the same as herbavores who lie about being herbavores when they are really omnivores, then you are just as bad as all the omnivores who lie and say they are herbavores. In fact, you are supporting the cause of omnivores who lie and say they are herbavores, by trying to change the definition of herbavore to the equivalent of "lying omnivore." So that makes you a vegetarian, too!!!! Don't you see it, Kent! Vegetarians are liars. And liars are Kent. So then Kent is a vegetarian! It's all crystal clear to me now! And Kent will shortly die of heart disease! And I'm a psychic! Yipppeee! I can see the future!!!!

Kent, this has been fun. But seriously, think what you like. Your goal seems to be to believe whatever makes you happy, truth be damned. So I say enjoy yourself in "Kent Land" if it works for you. Now that this thread is no longer posted on the front page of this website, under the heading of "News," I think I've done my job, and so I can enjoy myself too.

Faith

[Nudizzle]

Well put.

I never thought I'd agree so whole heartedly with a vegetarian (=


By the way, if p --> q, that doesn't always mean that q --> p. The two are not logically consistent. (i.e. "vegetarian lifestyle may cause arterial plaque build up" does NOT imply the converse, or "the presence of arterial plague build up shows the he was a vegetarian)

not that i believe p anyway...

[Kent]

It is amazing that so many former vegetarians keep defending the diet that made them sick. I guess its human nature to refuse to admit you were seriously wrong.

And why do people use the vegetarians from Southern India as an example, unless they simply don't know the truth.

"The vegetarians of Southern India eat a low-calorie diet very high in carbohydrates and low in protein and fat. They have the shortest life span of any society on Earth, and their bodies have an extremely low muscle mass. They are weak and frail and the children clearly exhibit a failure to thrive. Their heart disease rate is double that of the meat eaters in Northern India. HL Abrams. Vegetarianism: An anthropological/nutritional evaluation. Journal of Applied Nutrition, 1980, 32:2:53-87." Anthropological Research Reveals Human Dietary Requirements for Optimal Health (http://www.biblelife.org/abrams.htm)
by H. Leon Abrams, Jr., MA, EDS

Kent :wave:

[Faithnj]

It is amazing that so many former vegetarians keep defending the diet that made them sick. I guess its human nature to refuse to admit you were seriously wrong. Who are you talking about??? (Faith looks around the room to see if somebody else is in here.) Are you talking to me???? Oh no you're not! 'Cause I've been a REAL vegetarian for 21 years. And unlike you, I don't flip-flop and I don't cheat on my vegetarian diet. I have no craving for meat, despite the fact that I was raised on a typical midwestern diet of meat and potatoes. (And with two meats on Sundays.) I have no nutritional deficiencies that my doctor can detect with medical tests. And I don't care what other people eat, but the thought of putting animal flesh in my own mouth makes me want to toss my low carb cookies. (On the other hand, I'm sure you're cheating all right. I'm sure you're sitting at home eating cookies and downing a Pepsi as I type.)

RE: "....the diet that made them sick." Quite frankly, when I look at the health of many others who are like me, I'm thankful I gave meat up. Based on my genetics, if I still ate meat, I'd probably be a lot fatter, and I'd probably have diabetes too. For years I'd sit down next to my peers at breakfast. I'd have eggs, toast, homefries and juice. They'd have eggs, toast, homefries, juice and bacon and sausage or ham. Many of these people think that breakfast is not breakfast if it doesn't include meat. For personal reasons, I'm glad I didn't continue to think that way-- the weight difference between me and many of these people is a flat out 100 pounds, easily. (In fact, the weight difference between me and many of you is or has been a flat 100 pounds, and I'm six months pregnant!) I notice that a lot of these omnivores/carnivores also look significantly older than I do. Now, the fact that I have improved on my own health by switching to a low carb diet is a different subject. I'm still a vegetarian. (And I noticed that you improved on your diet by switching to low carb, too. Does that mean you were a closet vegetarian??? Hmmm? Tell the truth!)


And why do people use the vegetarians from Southern India as an example, unless they simply don't know the truth. Now here's what make you interesting Kent. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT UP SOUTH INDIANS as an example!!!! As I said before, you use them when you want to. (To say vegetarianism is bad.) And then you conveniently forget their existence when it suits you. (When you want to establish all vegetarians as cheaters who crave meat.) Hmmmm. Who's the "real" cheater?????? And why is he looking more and more like you?

Oh well. Case closed. Using your own logic, you are definitely a vegetarian. In fact, using your logic, you are definitely a South Indian at that. (My apologies to all the South Indians out there.;)) And because of this, you will die of clogged arteries and your last day on earth will be spent on a funeral pyre in India, burning right next to Bill Clinton. I can hear the fat in your clogged arteries sizzling and popping on the fire right now.

Best wishes ~

Faith

[eve25]

It is amazing that so many former vegetarians keep defending the diet that made them sick.

faith i believe he is reffering to me! what i said about being a vegetarian was not a "defense" but it was a fact. sorry kent but i wont claim vegetarianism made me "sick"/obese, unless you want me to lie to you??? it was a high fat high carb diet that made me "sick."

i was overweight before i went veg. hell i was overweight from infancy. giving up meat helped for sure, and my weight leveled off instead of gaining more. the picture in my gallery is of me 6 years into a vegetarian diet. you cant tell really but that outfit was a size 12, my hair was thicker and shinier,as i stated my health was much better, and my energy was through the roof. but, alas, when i started eating meat i still kept the high carbs i ate as a veg. so instead of a cheese sandwich i ate a ham and cheese and so on. the "before" picture in my gallery is me 3 years after the vegetarian picture.

this is the truth. i have nothing to gain by lying. i am not a vegetarian now. its hard, harder than low carbing. believe what you want. i lived as a vegetarian, as a high fat/high carb eater, and as a high fat/low carb eater. i have experienced these different woe so i wont just go off of what you say.

[Faithnj]

faith i believe he is reffering to me!
Naaaaah. Kent's not referring to anything but the voices in his own head!
You made it perfectly clear that you didn't think your years as a vegetarian had caused problems for you; rather it was the combination of eating high carb in conjunction with high fat. And I think your fabulous physique and that incredible mane of hair from your veggie years proved your point! Girl, you look fabulous in those pics! All the same, I'm glad that in our older years both you and I have discovered a w.o.e. that suits us better. No matter how you look at it-- vegetarian or non-vegetarian, too many carbs in the presence of too much fat is the wrong combination for some of us.

Faith
(Who wishes all of us the best as we try to find a way of eating that provides us with optimal health and happiness.)

[eve25]

You made it perfectly clear that you didn't think your years as a vegetarian had caused problems for you; rather it was the combination of eating high carb in conjunction with high fat.

did i make that clear?????? i wasnt too sure!

[Lisa N]

Faithnj, technically you are correct according to the dictionary, but as you admit, in practice people call themselves vegetarians even though they eat chicken and fish. Dr. Andrew Weil seems to fall into this category. Vegetarians love his books and website even though he strongly recommends eating fish, especially salmon. He repeatedly recommends against eating red meat. Many people call themselves vegetarian because they avoid eating red meat. Others list exceptions to the true vegetarian diet but still call themselves vegetarians, like lacto-vegetarians. Many eat a highly vegetarian diet but don't call themselves vegetarians. Bill Clinton may be in this category.

Kent, I'm really puzzled why you want to maintain this silly argument that Clinton developed heart disease due to his "vegetarian" diet even to the point of expanding the definition of vegetarian such that it includes the majority of the population. According to the evidence, Bill ate both vegetable matter and animal matter. That makes him an omnivore, not a vegetarian. I also eat a lot of vegetables and am not heavy on the meat, whether it be chicken, pork or beef (can't develop a taste for fish no matter how hard I try). That does not make me a vegetarian. It makes me a (very selective) omnivore since I don't eat grains, very little fruit and low GI/low carb veggies.
If you really want a villian to hang this crime on, make it the transfats that he probably consumed in anything but moderation along with his omnivorous diet along with the abundance of highly processed carbs he most likely consumed. President Clinton fully admits that he knows that he made bad food choices (heavy on the junk food) for the majority of his life.
The definition of vegetarian is what it is. If people want to claim that they are vegetarian and still eat meat, that doesn't change the definition. It just means that they are trying to claim a PC label without having the fortitude of conviction to follow through on it. I could tell people that I'm a cow and go live in a barn and eat hay but that doesn't make me one and most people with an ounce of sense would see how silly I was being (and would probably call the men with the neat white coats that button in the back to come take me away ;) ).

[Paleoanth]

There are vegetarians who are really healthy and live on a low carb plan as well. I am one. No chicken, pork, beef, fish or seafood. I don't cheat either.

Calling a vegetarian unhealthy is not necessarily true. Calling a person who eats meat is healthy is not necessarily true either.

And by the way-there is a genetic component to plaque levels. What you stated about that was not true either.

[Kent]

My apology for the incorrect title to this thread. It appears former President Bill Clinton was not a vegetarian. At least he was eating meat in the news article below. It doesn't make much different except eating some meat must have delayed his heart disease since a vegetarian diet would have been higher in pathogenic carbohydrates than the meal with meal described in the article.

Poor Chelsea. She is heading for trouble.

Accompanied by his daughter, Chelsea, Clinton went to Camp Bondsteel, the sprawling firebase that is home for most of the 6,000 U.S. troops in Kosovo. Smiling and shaking hands, Chelsea got at least as much attention as her father. The Clintons stayed for a Thanksgiving dinner; Chelsea had a vegetarian plate while the president feasted on a drumstick, stuffing and sweet potatoes.

Clinton tells Kosovar Albanians: Be tolerant (http://www.unb.ca/web/bruns/9900/issue12/intnews/clinton.html)

Absolute Scientific Proof Carbohydrates Are Pathogenic. (http://www.biblelife.org/carbs.htm)

Kent :wave:

[ItsTheWooo]

RE: Quite frankly, when I look at the health of many others who are like me, I'm thankful I gave meat up. Based on my genetics, if I still ate meat, I'd probably be a lot fatter, and I'd probably have diabetes too. For years I'd sit down next to my peers at breakfast. I'd have eggs, toast, homefries and juice. They'd have eggs, toast, homefries, juice and bacon and sausage or ham. Many of these people think that breakfast is not breakfast if it doesn't include meat. For personal reasons, I'm glad I didn't continue to think that way-- the weight difference between me and many of these people is a flat out 100 pounds, easily. (In fact, the weight difference between me and many of you is or has been a flat 100 pounds, and I'm six months pregnant!) I notice that a lot of these omnivores/carnivores also look significantly older than I do. Now, the fact that I have improved on my own health by switching to a low carb diet is a different subject. I'm still a vegetarian. (And I noticed that you improved on your diet by switching to low carb, too. Does that mean you were a closet vegetarian??? Hmmm? Tell the truth!)


Faith, with all due respect, I don't think it is so much the meat-eating that is associated with the higher incidences of diet diseases (diabetes, obesity, CHD, etc) among meat eaters. Correlation does not prove causation. I personally feel that the sort of person who would become vegetarian is going to be someone who is not overly emotionally attached to food, and doesn't care for it very much, unlike the overwhelming majority of non-vegetarians.
In other words, I think the difference is mostly cultural. It is the behaviors and lifestyle lived with food that is common among meat eaters, whereas vegetarianism tends to attract those who are more interested in healthy living & eating, and less interested in emotional/comfort eating. An omnivore - someone who doesn't even think about what they put in their bodies - is far more likely to sit on the couch and down a six pack of beer and a bag of chips. A vegetarian - someone who has shown they are conscious of their consumption - is more likely to consider the health risks of binging.

Of course this is only my opinion, perhaps it really was the omission of meat that made the difference between you and your friends. However I am inclined to believe it was your temperament and outlook to food that made the difference. Whereas you would have a small serving of all those carby foods like juice and toast, your friends would have much more frequent and larger servings (AND also include the meaty dishes as well).

Just to be clear I'm not saying vegetarians can't be healthy, when done properly I think vegetarianism can be a very healthful diet. Also, I totally respect and admire your decision to live your life in a way you think is morally right.
However, I disagree with your assertion that anyone can get sick eating the diet that spurred our creation. Maybe some people have a bad reaction to our factory farmed meats with all the synthetic hormones and what not, this is possible. Meat in principle, that is eating the flesh of animals? I don't see how that's possible, at least without being profoundly genetically abnormal/diseased. All anthropological evidence shows we evolved as primarily carnivorous omnivores. In fact, the transition to intelligent hunters was the catalyst behind the evolution of our superior intellect and problem solving skills. Because we descended from primarily herbivorous (yet omnivorous) primates, our bodies were poorly suited to taking down prey. Animal food are highly nutritious, concentrated sources of energy and therefore were very prized. Proto-humans were faced with a paradox: how do you get the prize, without having the tools? Easy. You invent your own. We needed to depend on our brains to hunt, and so we starting depending on higher thinking processes to "outsmart" other animals. Result? A herd of grazing animals are tricked into running off of a cliff to their deaths, where by their corpses can be the fuel for human evolution.

This positive assocation between intelligence and survival encouraged females to k-select for intelligent males (as they, being the best hunters and providers, logically make the best mates), and this resulted in our evolution as intelligent beings. Ironically, the only reason humans have the capacity to contemplate the morality or usefulness of meat eating is BECAUSE we ate meat :).

Then there is the physiological evidence. Our bodies (musculature, dental formula, etc) share traits of both meat and plant eaters, however our digestive system tells the truth... we evolved on and are designed to be fueled by a high animal product diet. Plant foods are either pitiful energy sources due to our lacking the essential organs & enzymes to process them (i.e. cellulose, an abundant plant sugar, cannot be digested by humans because we lack both the enzyme to break it down as well as a caceum to ferment it into SCFAs for energy like herbivores have), or they overwhelm our body with energy at an abnormal, uneven, unnatural rate (i.e. highly sugared/starchy foods... our bodies are not designed to consume foods with high sugar or starch content, so these are rapidly absorbed by the small intestine. The result is an abnormal sugar-spike and consequential metabolic/endocrine abnormalities.). There are very few plant foods upon which humans can thrive, which is why vegans have the challenges they do. Conversely, if a human tried to "live like a caveman" and eat almost entirely all animal products, he would likely be very healthy. If we are truely "unbiased omnivores" or even "vegetarians" as is so common to say, why is it an overwhelmingly vegan human would die within weeks divorced of society, whereas an overwhelmingly carnivorous human could very well thrive and be healthy?

What I'm basically saying is that meat is the cornerstone of our natural diet, which was only supplemented by roots, berries, and the leafy foliage that could be gathered. To say it is unnatural and unhealthy for humans to consume meat is almost like saying tigers are healthier as vegetarians.
I can totally respect and honor your moral decision to be vegetarian, but I can't agree in good faith with your assertion that meat is in anyway unhealthy for anyone.

[Nazrafel]

just to butt in- my mother has been vegetarian for about 25 years (maybe a little fish once in a long while, little to no dairy) and is perfectly health. She's over fifty but can do 2 hours of aerobics and has gained 5 lbs since high school.

[mcsblues]

This strikes me as funny. You found 3 grams of carbs in liver and 1 gram in an oyster. LOL This is a riot. :lol:

Yes, I always generalize. It cuts to the heart of the matter. The younger generation never wants to state anything as absolute fact. That way they always have an escape.

Glad you are easily amused :lol:

In fact calf or lamb liver is about 10 - 11% carbohydrate. Oysters 6% - higher levels than the vast majority of vegetables.

- Far from "cutting to the heart of the matter", when you state things as "absolute facts" which are demonstrably false, the credibility of any thesis you build on the basis of such 'generalizations' is destroyed.

Cheers,

Malcolm

[ItsTheWooo]

faith i believe he is reffering to me! what i said about being a vegetarian was not a "defense" but it was a fact. sorry kent but i wont claim vegetarianism made me "sick"/obese, unless you want me to lie to you??? it was a high fat high carb diet that made me "sick."

i was overweight before i went veg. hell i was overweight from infancy. giving up meat helped for sure, and my weight leveled off instead of gaining more. the picture in my gallery is of me 6 years into a vegetarian diet. you cant tell really but that outfit was a size 12, my hair was thicker and shinier,as i stated my health was much better, and my energy was through the roof. but, alas, when i started eating meat i still kept the high carbs i ate as a veg. so instead of a cheese sandwich i ate a ham and cheese and so on. the "before" picture in my gallery is me 3 years after the vegetarian picture.

this is the truth. i have nothing to gain by lying. i am not a vegetarian now. its hard, harder than low carbing. believe what you want. i lived as a vegetarian, as a high fat/high carb eater, and as a high fat/low carb eater. i have experienced these different woe so i wont just go off of what you say.

It might have been the inclusion of meat into your diet which did you in. I can especially believe this if you merely added on a bunch more new calories from meat into your diet. However, if you merely replaced calories from sugar (bread, pasta, rice) with calories from meat I don't see how that could have adversely affected your health.

You say your health went down hill after stopping vegetarianism, which is true, however it might not necessarily be the stopping vegetarianism which caused the problems. A long term high sugar diet takes awhile to manifest as disease in some people, whereas others are more sensitive (due to hereditary factors and all). It's possible that the sugar metabolism issues you have now were made worse by vegetarianism, but the obvious diseases (morbid obesity caused by a sugar-abuse-related disturbance in metabolic hormones and what not) might not have manifest until some time later.

I have a final question. If you are sure that it was the meat eating that caused the disease, why does your health seem to correlate with level of sugar you consume? Meat is not made up of sugar. Meat does not adversely affect sugar metabolism. Carbohydrates - which are usually higher on a vegetarian diet - do. Technically if your health was being improved by vegetarianism, why do you now need to low carb to be healthier?

I just thought I would throw that out there into conversation :).

[potatofree]

...............................................

[ItsTheWooo]

Naaaaah. Kent's not referring to anything but the voices in his own head!
You made it perfectly clear that you didn't think your years as a vegetarian had caused problems for you; rather it was the combination of eating high carb in conjunction with high fat. And I think your fabulous physique and that incredible mane of hair from your veggie years proved your point! Girl, you look fabulous in those pics! All the same, I'm glad that in our older years both you and I have discovered a w.o.e. that suits us better. No matter how you look at it-- vegetarian or non-vegetarian, too many carbs in the presence of too much fat is the wrong combination for some of us.

Faith
(Who wishes all of us the best as we try to find a way of eating that provides us with optimal health and happiness.)

Yes, a high calorie diet by which carbohydrate and fat are more evenly distributed is problematic. This hypercaloric diet which favors fat and carbs equally over scant amounts of protein is the absolute worst diet there is. The carbs are putting your body in a state of fat storage, the extra calories from dietary fat isn't being burned off it is preferntially being sent to fat cells with good efficiency.

However, on a calorie adequate diet, I tend to be of the opinion that the higher fat ranges, and the lower the carbs, the better. I'm not necessarily talking something ridiculous like 5% carb ketosis diet, but 15, 20, 25% carbs? You're better off with that than higher levels. Sure there are exceptions, active people sprinters and what not might need more sugar, but as far as the average person is concerned the more fat and less carbs you eat the better off you'll be...

Again, JMO :)

[fatburner]

Yes, a high calorie diet by which carbohydrate and fat are more evenly distributed is problematic. This hypercaloric diet which favors fat and carbs equally over scant amounts of protein is the absolute worst diet there is. The carbs are putting your body in a state of fat storage, the extra calories from dietary fat isn't being burned off it is preferntially being sent to fat cells with good efficiency.

However, on a calorie adequate diet, I tend to be of the opinion that the higher fat ranges, and the lower the carbs, the better. I'm not necessarily talking something ridiculous like 5% carb ketosis diet, but 15, 20, 25% carbs?

Again, JMO :)

Probably the most amazing thing for me about low carbing is that this 'calorie adequate' principle is so easy to achieve. I eat less than half the calories I used to when I was high complex carb/low fat and I feel hungry at mealtimes and NEVER in between, which seemed like an impossible dream in the 'recommended healthy diet' nightmare. It always amuses me that the lowcarb critics knock this easily satisfied appetite aspect of low carbing as somehow 'cheating' or unhealthy, or most hilarious of all - because we are bored. What a joke! Meanwhile the pharmaceutical companies spend mega billions on 'discovering' some high tech appetite control. Even if they manage to come up with some pill that doesn't come with a raft of adverse side effects, why would you bother? I've never had a weight problem, but I'm actually putting on muscle gradually and losing bodyfat without even trying. Low carb, moderate protein, and FAT FAT FAT - it's not that difficult to understand . So the benefits of lowcarbing apply just as much to 'normal' and I would guess 'underweight' people alike. It's the Woo, I think your

'The carbs are putting your body in a state of fat storage, the extra calories from dietary fat isn't being burned off it is preferntially being sent to fat cells with good efficiency.'

says it as well as any wise words in any of the lowcarb gurus' books. And that's just about the weightloss aspect. The serious degenerative effects of insulin metabolism affect us all - fat, thin , or in between. The health benefits I have experienced from induction levels of lowcarbing for over two years have been nothing short of astonishing.
I think Kent's denigration of 'Vegetarianism' is unfortunate. Veganism definitely makes good health difficult. But Ovo/ lacto vegetarians should have no problem getting their fats (and particularly their saturated fat) high enough and keeping carbs low enough to get the full health benefits of low carbing, particularly if they avoid fruit. I admit that it's probably a lot easier if you eat meat. If the animals I eat are raised and killed humanely I've actually given them the gift of happy lives they would not otherwise have had at all. So vegetarianism on philosophical grounds never made any sense to me. The 'health' benefits of vegetarianism are just plain wrong IMHO, but I respect people's right to choose. It's sad that the many worthwhile principles of PETA are so obscured by their fundamentalist methods and distortions. Their targeting of Atkins is a tragic indictment of the whole organization.
Slick Willie ate too much carbohydrate with his fat and protein, it's that simple. It was no more because he ate little meat (even if that's true) than if he'd never eaten animals in his life. And he probably ate so much transfat in junkfood that it's surprising that he still has a cardiovascular system left at all, vegetarian or not.
Kent, you've got so many interesting and worthwhile things to say most of the time, why do you waste your energy on wild goose chases like this?

[Faithnj]

My original message was wayyyy to long. I'm going to see if I can cut it down for you Miss Woo.

Faith

[eve25]

I have a final question. If you are sure that it was the meat eating that caused the disease, why does your health seem to correlate with level of sugar you consume?
oh it definately wasnt the meat eating, it was the meat ON TOP of everything i ate before. see...
when i added the meat back in, i upped to 300 lbs in 1 year. so i guess you COULD say, it was the meat, right??????? well obviously NO...it was the combination. COMBINATION!! i was still eating super high carbs but i started eating super high fat too.


Technically if your health was being improved by vegetarianism, why do you now need to low carb to be healthier?

well i was a vegetarian for 7 years but then i was an "eat-everythingarian"
for 5, and then i started atkins last october to lose the weight i had gained over those 5 years. after packing on the pounds i did consider going back to eating vegetarian but it is sooo hard to stop eating meat after you start.

[VickiR]

But I thought that Clinton was also fond of Mickey-D's burgers.

Also, vegetarian foods in India tend to involve a lot of butter - which is tasty, but in combo with all the rice and bread, not so good, IMHO.

Also, it's possible for people to go from no blockages, to blocked coronary arteries, in an instant - it depends on how the arteriosclerosis develops (within the lumen of the artery, or outside the lumen). If it develops outside the lumen, and the clotting cascade starts on an exposed surface, the blood will clot right up and block the arteries very suddenly.

It does go to show you, though, that the best medical care in the world doesn't mean that you will enjoy vigorous good health forever!

[etoiles]

I just wanted to add that I am also a vegetarian and also have not cheated once in 9 years.

Vegetarian does not have to be the anti low carb plan. Just as meat eating does not necesarily lead to low carbing.

[TombRaider]

"The vegetarians of Southern India eat a low-calorie diet very high in carbohydrates and low in protein and fat. They have the shortest life span of any society on Earth, and their bodies have an extremely low muscle mass. They are weak and frail and the children clearly exhibit a failure to thrive. Their heart disease rate is double that of the meat eaters in Northern India. HL Abrams. Vegetarianism: An anthropological/nutritional evaluation. Journal of Applied Nutrition, 1980, 32:2:53-87." Anthropological Research Reveals Human Dietary Requirements for Optimal Health (http://www.biblelife.org/abrams.htm)
by H. Leon Abrams, Jr., MA, EDS


Having done relief work in southern India, I can tell you flat out that this scholar is leaving out a big part of the picture. Huge portions of the population of the Indian subcontinent are living in extreme poverty, with little to no sanitation, poor medical facilities, an almost complete absence of natal and pre-natal care, and the prevalence of a number of devastating tropical diseases, including malaria among others.To blame the inability of children to thrive in this environment completely upon vegetarian diet is incomplete science at best.

[gapgirl420]

Kent
Where do you get this stuff??? A Republican Health Magazine?
Bill Clinton was NEVER a vegetarian, and he LOVED MEAT....
and all the bad carbs that went with it!
GAP