Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > LC Research/Media
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Mon, May-18-15, 19:43
RawNut's Avatar
RawNut RawNut is offline
Lipivore
Posts: 1,208
 
Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 270/185/180 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Florida
Default Hats off to the Japanese

Quote:
(Raised cholesterol is good for you)

For many years I have told anyone who will listen that, if you have a high cholesterol level, you will live longer. Equally, if you have a low cholesterol level, you will die younger. This, ladies and gentlemen, is a fact. The older you become the more beneficial it is to have a high cholesterol level.

This fact has become more difficult to demonstrate recently as so many people have been put on statins that the association between cholesterol levels and mortality has been twisted, bent and pumelled into the weirdest shapes imaginable. However, Japan, provides some very interesting data. Japan has always had a very low rate of heart disease, an enviable life expectancy, and… generally low cholesterol levels. Aha!, surely this means that low cholesterol levels are good for you? Well….

Well, here is the introduction to a one hundred and sixteen page review of the cholesterol hypothesis published in the Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism. It was published on April 30th 2015. I have just finished reading it for the first time. I thought I would share the Introduction, in full:

High cholesterol levels are recognized as a major cause of atherosclerosis. However, for more than half a century some have challenged this notion. But which side is correct, and why can’t we come to a definitive conclusion after all this time and with more and more scientific data available? We believe the answer is very simple: for the side defending this so-called cholesterol theory, the amount of money at stake is too much to lose the fight.

The issue of cholesterol is one of the biggest issues in medicine where the law of economy governs. Moreover, advocates of the theory take the notion to be a simple, irrefutable ‘fact’ and self-explanatory. They may well think that those who argue against the cholesterol theory—actually, the cholesterol ‘hypothesis’— are mere eccentrics.

We, as those on the side opposing the hypothesis, understand their argument very well. Indeed, the first author of this supplementary issue (TH) had been a very strong believer and advocate of the cholesterol hypothesis up until a couple of years after the Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival Study (4S) reported the benefits of statin therapy in The Lancet in 1994. To be honest with the readers, he used to persuade people with high cholesterol levels to take statins. He even gave a talk or two to general physicians promoting the benefits of statins. Terrible, unforgivable mistakes given what we came to know and clearly know now.

In this supplementary issue, we explore the background to the cholesterol hypothesis utilizing data obtained mainly from Japan—the country where anti-cholesterol theory campaigns can be conducted more easily than in any other countries. But why is this? Is it because the Japanese researchers defending the hypothesis receive less support from pharmaceutical companies than researchers overseas do? Not at all. Because Japanese researchers are indolent and weak? No, of course not. Because the Japanese public is skeptical about the benefits of medical therapy? No, they generally accept everything physicians say; unfortunately, this is also complicated by the fact that physicians don’t have enough time to study the cholesterol issue by themselves, leaving them simply to accept the information provided by the pharmaceutical industry.

Reading through this supplementary issue, it will become clear why Japan can be the starting point for the anti-cholesterol theory campaign. The relationship between all-cause mortality and serum cholesterol levels in Japan is a very interesting one: mortality actually goes down with higher total or low density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol levels, as reported by most Japanese epidemiological studies of the general population. This relationship cannot be observed as easily in other countries, except in elderly populations where the same relationship exists worldwide.

The mortality from coronary heart disease in Japan has accounted for around just 7% of all cause mortality for decades; a much lower rate than seen in Western countries. The theory that the lower the cholesterol levels are, the better is completely wrong in the case of Japan—in fact, the exact opposite is true. Because Japan is unique in terms of cholesterol-related phenomena, it is easy to find flaws in the cholesterol hypothesis.

Based on data from Japan, we propose a new direction in the use of cholesterol medications for global health promotion; namely, recognizing that cholesterol is a negative risk factor for all-cause mortality and re-examining our use of cholesterol medications accordingly. This, we believe, marks the starting point of a paradigm shift in not only how we understand the role cholesterol plays in health, but also how we provide cholesterol treatment.

The guidelines for cholesterol are thus another area of great importance. Indeed, the major portion of this supplementary issue (from Chapter 4 onward) is given over to our detailed examination and critique of guidelines published by the Japan Atherosclerosis Society. We dedicate a large portion of this work to these guidelines because they are generally held in high regard in Japan, and the country’s public health administration mechanism complies with them without question. Physicians, too, tend to simply obey the guidelines; their workloads often don’t allow them to explore the issue rigorously enough to learn the background truth and they are afraid of litigation if they don’t follow the guidelines in daily practice.

These chapters clearly describe some of the flaws in the guidelines—flaws which are so serious that it becomes clear that times must change and the guidelines must be updated. Our purpose in writing this supplementary issue is to help everyone understand the issue of cholesterol better than before, and we hope that we lay out the case for why a paradigm shift in cholesterol treatment is needed, and sooner rather than later. We would like to stress in closing that we have received no funding in support of writing or publishing this supplementary issue and our conflicts of interest statements are given in full at the end.

Here is the introduction to the chapter on cholesterol and mortality:

All-cause mortality is the most appropriate outcome to use when investigating risk factors for life threatening disease. Section 1 discusses all-cause mortality according to cholesterol levels, as determined by large epidemiological studies in Japan. Overall, an inverse trend is found between all-cause mortality and total (or low density lipoprotein [LDL]) cholesterol levels: mortality is highest in the lowest cholesterol group without exception. If limited to elderly people, this trend is universal. As discussed in Section 2, elderly people with the highest cholesterol levels have the highest survival rates irrespective of where they live in the world.

I don’t think that I really need to say anything else, other than to repeat this fact. If you have a high cholesterol (LDL) level, you will live longer. This is especially true of the elderly.

Ann Nutr Metab 2015;66(suppl 4):1–116 DOI: 10.1159/000381654



http://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2015/0...o-the-japanese/
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Mon, May-18-15, 20:41
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,948
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
Location: United States
Default

They're asserting that an outlier case should be used to up-end the established paradigm. That seems like a losing strategy.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Mon, May-18-15, 21:01
RawNut's Avatar
RawNut RawNut is offline
Lipivore
Posts: 1,208
 
Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 270/185/180 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Florida
Default

It's one MORE case supporting what all the others show only this time in all age groups. I'd hardly call that an outlier.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Mon, May-18-15, 22:31
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

Actually, outlier refers to a thing detached from the group by virtue of some difference, whether confirming or opposing. For example, the rich guy is an outlier only because he's got more money than everybody else. In his book Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell uses the term to describe not one who appears to disobey the rules, but instead to describe the same rules only a few of us obey to such a high degree.

In terms of observational evidence, this would be the difference between an inaccurate observation that allows a real effect to show inverse, non-existent or inconsistent causality, and an accurate observation that consistently showed causality. The accurate observation obeys the rules of observation, the inaccurate observation does not or less so. As we are all likely aware, the initial observation that led to the current cholesterol paradigm was intentionally inaccurate. Ancel Keys lied. It's possible that in spite of his intentional lie, he was still right about the whole thing because even a broken clock gets it right twice a day. But it's very unlikely. Also, Keys was paid by sugar money, he was pushing an agenda not even related to fat or cholesterol. But what better way to remove suspicion than by blaming somebody else, ya? The agenda today is different, but the blame is still unwarranted because the target is still somebody else, just like it was when Keys lied.

Does that mean this new observation is more accurate or even reliable to any degree? Not one bit. Ever. If the goal here is to find the culprit (or in this case to find the innocent), any observation just ain't enough. Indeed, if I believed in the old paradigm and I wanted to keep believing, I'd probably use that argument too.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Mon, May-18-15, 23:53
gonwtwindo's Avatar
gonwtwindo gonwtwindo is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,671
 
Plan: General Low Carb
Stats: 164/162.6/151 Female 5'3"
BF:Sure is
Progress: 11%
Location: SoCal
Default

Ok so Japan has 'generally low cholesterol'. And all-cause mortality is higher with the lower cholesterol levels. This well known in all populations.

Nowhere does it talk about high cholesterol levels, only the highest within a population of 'generally low cholesterol'. So, rubbish. More manipulative 'interpretations' of data IMO
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Tue, May-19-15, 08:02
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Good point. How high is high? High in the context of a population with particularly high cholesterol might count as normal somewhere else.

Another thing I wonder about--usually we'll say, dietary cholesterol won't increase blood cholesterol. Is this true under all conditions? A low fat diet does seem to lower cholesterol levels, if it's pushed far enough. Our metabolism can regulate levels of cholesterol by increasing and decreasing production of cholesterol, its removal from the body in the stool, and absorption of cholesterol from the diet. What if you feed somebody a diet that has the liver producing less cholesterol than is needed--will dietary cholesterol absorption get ramped up? Two people on a fifteen percent fat diet--one eating lots of shellfish, the other person not--I wonder who has the higher cholesterol level? There's always the possibility that the cholesterol is tracking with something else.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Tue, May-19-15, 11:14
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,866
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Japan also has a more homogeneous population, they probably don't have the wide-genetic diversity we do in the US.
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Tue, May-19-15, 11:30
gonwtwindo's Avatar
gonwtwindo gonwtwindo is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,671
 
Plan: General Low Carb
Stats: 164/162.6/151 Female 5'3"
BF:Sure is
Progress: 11%
Location: SoCal
Default

Right? I mean, let's look at dogs for a minute. Certain breeds are known to have genetic weaknesses (and strengths) and humans are no different. Maybe 'Turning Japanese' is the real solution!

**before anyone gets upset, I am not implying that humans have 'breeds'. But we do have genetic ancestry.
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Tue, May-19-15, 12:53
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 4,328
 
Plan: vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

Stroke is the #1 cause of death in Japan (it is 4th in the US). Also included in their top 10 are stomach, liver and pancreatic cancer and suicide, which aren't even in the top 10 for the US. Maybe their cholesterol levels and consumption of fat are too low. And they don't eat more protein, so it must be the over-consumption of carbs or Hello Kitty, and genetics.

Last edited by deirdra : Tue, May-19-15 at 13:00.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Tue, May-19-15, 13:03
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,866
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonwtwindo
Right? I mean, let's look at dogs for a minute. Certain breeds are known to have genetic weaknesses (and strengths) and humans are no different. Maybe 'Turning Japanese' is the real solution!

**before anyone gets upset, I am not implying that humans have 'breeds'. But we do have genetic ancestry.

What are breeds but a set of defining physical characteristics? We do have human breeds, but we call them races or ethnic groups. (Do you suppose there are Chihuahua supremacy groups out there? )

My breed has a high rate of DVT due to a genetic mutation called Factor V Leiden. The AHC won't let me breed. (J/K about that last sentence)

Last edited by Nancy LC : Tue, May-19-15 at 13:08.
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Tue, May-19-15, 13:59
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
Posts: 8,765
 
Plan: Paleoish/Keto
Stats: 225/167/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 116%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Default

You can read the entire supplement here.

http://www.karger.com/Article/Pdf/381654
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Tue, May-19-15, 20:04
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,948
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
Location: United States
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RawNut
It's one MORE case supporting what all the others show only this time in all age groups. I'd hardly call that an outlier.


The researchers themselves state that Japan is an outlier:
Quote:
The relationship between all-cause mortality and serum cholesterol levels in Japan is a very interesting one: mortality actually goes down with higher total or low density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol levels, as reported by most Japanese epidemiological studies of the general population. This relationship cannot be observed as easily in other countries, except in elderly populations where the same relationship exists worldwide.
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Tue, May-19-15, 22:27
RawNut's Avatar
RawNut RawNut is offline
Lipivore
Posts: 1,208
 
Plan: Very Low Carb Paleo
Stats: 270/185/180 Male 72 inches
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj_cohn
The researchers themselves state that Japan is an outlier:


Okay it's an outlier then but it's still one more study that contradicts cholesterol being a villain in and of itself.

I once had high cholesterol myself. My chances at a long life were not good though as I also had metabolic syndrome, low HDL, high LDL, and high TG. That is why various ratios are a much better predictor than any one total. High total cholesterol and LDL can be a result and/or marker of hyperinsulinemia. If you were to take these people out of the equation, (which age does) it'd be easier to observe the same thing in other countries as in Japan.

There are two genetic diseases, one (only the heterozygotes) that lowers LDL and one that raises HDL. They are both associated with lower all-cause mortality. What do they have in common? A good HDL:LDL ratio.

This paper describes a highly sophisticated mathematical model of atherosclerosis, built upon an exhaustive set of data: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3951264/

Notice how LDL matters less and less as HDL approaches 60:




You may also want to take a look at Ivor Cumming's blog. He's been digging up papers on risk factors and how they relate to insulin resistance and hyperinsulinemia vs traditional risk factors. http://www.thefatemperor.com/blog/


Heretic Stan found these studies that fit nicely with what Ivor found. Insulin stimulates arterial cholesterol synthesis and lipogenesis: http://stan-heretic.blogspot.com/20...nsulin-c14.html

Seems I've gone off on a tangent.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 21:52.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.