Hello, all you strugglers,

I'm guessing you're strugglers. Why else would you be reading in a sub-forum named "Tips and Stalls?" What I'm proposing to do will probably be more for entertainment than anything else. If it's useful for weight loss, it will be so for those with really stubborn metabolisms.

I am very metabolically resistent. My doctor concurs that this is so. He also points out that I am nearing the threshold for adult-onset diabetes. Except for that (!), all the other blood work looks really great. My lipid panel, especially the cholesterol, has improved with the adoption of the Atkins diet.

Here's the problem: after an initial 10 pound drop within a week of going on Atkins (not unusual, to read others' accounts around here), and after staying on induction for the next eight weeks, I did not lose an ounce. So, I tried a fat fast. Bang, I dropped eight pounds.

The short version of the rest of the story is this: today I finished my most recent fat fast (done four of them so far), and every pound I've lost has been lost on a fat fast (excepting that initial chunk). Staying on induction after a fat fast keeps my weight loss stable -- i.e. I don't regain the weight. And, I don't mind living the rest of my life on an induction diet. I enjoy what I eat and the range of things I can eat.

The problem (for me) is that I seem to get the biggest bang for my buck out of a fat fast if it lasts at least 5 days. The longest I've gone is 7 days, the least 4 days. On day 4, my ketostix begin to turn almost black! But, something undesirable kicks in -- I begin to wonder how the dog will smell turning on a spit over low-burning charcoal. No, I'm not talking about hunger pangs; this is far more metaphysical than that. Not a craving, exactly. More like a soulish obsession with chewing something -- something greasy, and cheesey, and (yes) carby. Think of a double pepperoni and jalapeño pizza, washed down with a big bowl of triple vanilla ice cream topped with Hershey's chocolate syrup. Yeah, that sounds ever so much better than roast dog, right? But, roast dog (at that point) doesn't sound so bad either. Hence my problem ...

The fat fast has been such a help, I don't want to abandon it as a technique, but I'm wondering how if I might gain some things (perseverance and, [crossing fingers hopefully] additional weight loss) by adding yet another technique to the mix -- the refeeding. What I propose to experiment with is this -- to cycle through a fat fast, a 36 hour refeeding, and a few days of induction; then back to a fat fast, then a refeeding, then induction again, and so on.

What I don't have a clue about is how long to run the induction period. In one sense, it may not matter. I know I want to FF for five days, and I want to follow that (initially) with a 36 hour refeeding. After that, I'll do induction for whatever number of days is convenient (at least until my weight stabilizes for several days in a row), and then (if convenient), I'll start over again with the fat fast.

If any of you have tried anything similar, I'd really like to hear what you observed. Meanwhile, I'm keeping a good record -- weights and blood glucose numbers included, and I'll be reporting in from time to time with what I'm observing.

One more note -- I have been exercising five times a week since beginning Atkins. I get my pulse up to 130 (usually w/in 8 minutes of fast walking), and I keep it between 130 and 160 until an hour has passed, jogging lightly when necessary to keep the pulse somewhere in that range. I notice that it's taking more jogging lately, which is what I'd expect if I'm accomplishing some cardio conditioning.

Also, I'm 56, I had a heart attack seven years ago, and as of today, I'm one-third the way toward my goal of losing 85 pounds. My lipid panel is great, except for the blood glucose which is bumping the upper ranges of normal. But, there's a history of diabetes in my family, so this is no surprise either. Doc says if I lose another 20 pounds, the blood glucose will take care of itself. For now, he's decided to let me go for it. We can always add drugs in 3 months if more weight doesn't come off.

If I've left anything out you're curious about, ask.

Homesar

I am curious (now that I've recovered from laughing) about the order you are doing this in...any reason to follow the fat fast directly with the refeed? I worry about the severity of this to your system...why not, say, do FF for 5 days, then Induction for 5 days, then feedup for 2, the Induction for 5, then fat fast again? This will keep the body guessing and hopefully fool that li'l debbil leptin without perhaps being quite so hard on your body..

Just a thought. I couldn't do the FF myself... I really had tummy grumbles and felt like I was starving. So gave up on the second day.

Keep us posted.

Val

Hi, Val,

Thanks for the question.

The order I'm trying was picked (partly) because of the freak-em-out effect it might have on the leptin-sprite in my body. After a fat fast, (remember, it's not just 90 percent fat, it's only 1000 calories a day) -- well, I'd suppose that sprite would think -- "Sheesh! Rations are short and greasy. Time to give the starvation dial a turn or two."

So, if the point of a switch is to confuse the leptin-sprite, I can't think of anything better suited to do this than a blast of calories in all their nuitritional variety -- protein, fat, and carbs-wonderful-carbs in quantities of a few hundred grams a dose.

If I'm correct (and who knows about that?? Is personifying a metabolic process bizarre, or what?), then going back on induction is a further slight-of-hand maneuver: keep the grub chugging down the gut, but yank the carbs and up the fat. If the Leptin-sprite is as stupid as I hope he is, he'll see gross calories and food-mass and overlook the fact that the carbs are gone.

As to being a shock to the body, a couple of things to say ...

1. So far, no sweat. Last night, when I posted the post above, I did so while waiting for that double-pepperoni jalapeño pizza to be delivered to my door. I ate four slices and felt almost uncomfortably "full," but otherwise no problems.

2. Three hours later I ate one more slice, and a big bowl of that triple vanilla ice cream. Discovered (to my dismay) that my daughter had killed the last of the Hershey's Chocolate Syrup, so I had to settle for caramel sauce. The things I suffer for this WOE! [head shaking in amazement] Still, I felt fine, and I slept like a baby, where during the fat fast, I was waking up at 0500 wanting to power down my 200 calories of oil, though the feeding time was 0600.

So far, then, I experience no ill side effects. I'll check my blood glucose tonight before heading to bed. I expect it to be elevated since by that time I will have gone to a movie and eaten a large bag of popcorn. In a few moments, I'll finish off that pizza for lunch -- three lovely slices lying in their congealed greasiness in the fridge even as I type this. Yum! Cold Pizza! It's not just for breakfast any more!!

Otherwise, I like your idea -- five day FF, two-day carbing (really one and a half days), then five days of induction. It's almost two weeks for an entire cycle, and I might have to up the FF and induction one day each, to satisfy the calendar-obsessive sprite within me.

By the way, does anyone else on Atkins ever notice signs of multiple-personality disorder?

Homesar

Homesar, have you read the cyclic ketogenic diet stuff? When the body builders do their carb-ups, they eat high carbs and moderate protein and LOW fat...might be worth your while to read up on why. (don't remember).Of course they wouldn't go near fat fasts.

This could work for you, as it has done for quite a few people...they found that they would gain some weight (water), and then be down a further net pound or two after being back on regular ketogenic eating.

Val

Hi, Val,

No, I've not read any of it. I have heard others refer to body builders using some sort of refeeding technique to achieve very low body-fat percentages, but beyond that, I've not read anything "official" about the theory. I'l google around the net tonight and see what I turn up. Thanks for the tip.

I'm going to guess that body builder fellows do NOT have thoroughly trashed metabolisms, while that is probably exactly what I have. Dr. Atkins talks about insulin resistence as if it were induced solely by diet, e.g. gobs of highly refined sugars. No doubt that's true up to a point, but I wonder if there isn't a genetic component to the syndrome as well.

My Mom had trouble with her weight from the day she got prego with me (age 21). I was okay, until my late 30's, and then I began to look/feel/expand as I'd seen my Mom do for years. The last effort I ever made to lose weight before I tried Atkins; I was eating 1200 calories a day, exercising aerobically for one hour daily, five days a week (much like what I'm doing now, in fact; see above), and I stayed pegged at 220 for eight months. Then I gave up, more or less resigned to the same fate I'd seen overtake my mother.

What got me fired up again was seeing the same pattern develop in my eldest daughter around age 20. I just had to give something a go, one more time, hoping I'd find what would keep her from living the metabolic life her Dad and Grandma had lived. Boy oh boy and I glad I've found Atkins. It's the first real hope I've seen, ever. Period.

Thanks again for the tip. As I type this, I'm finishing off a Wendy's Doublecheeseburger with fries. Tomorrow, it's back on Atkins induction for 3 days, beginning another FF next tuesday evening. The next cycle or two is planned to make a carbo-period begin on Thursday, October 9, which is my eldest ddaughter's birthday, which we'll celebrate with Very Carby birthday cake and ice cream.

As always, I'll keep you all posted on developments as I have them.

Homesar

You can find lots of info on cyclic ketogenic diet in the exercise forum here...look under CKD sub forum.

Val

Hi there!
After struggling with a long 6 week stall, last thursday I did a refeed but it didn't help much and it was not very pleasent for me.
I'm posting some good info about it and the way to do it. It's supposed to be high carb LOW fat (the other way : high carb and high fat could end in a few pounds of fat gained)
The articles are from Lyle McDonald who is the author of Ketogenic Diet and have a lot of recognition in CKD.
Also you might want to take a look to CKD forum. There are more information there.
http://www.wannabebig.com/article.p...eid=87&pageid=3
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles...ogenic-diet.htm
Take good care and good luck,
Isiar

Yes, CKD is generally used by body builders though and I don't know if Lyle recommends doing this if you are just trying to lose weight with normal exercise..haven't read his book.

Val

CKD didn't work for me, I think that 5-6 days wasn't enough for my body to recover from a proper refeed and start to burn fat again. Plus it seems I must keep calories very low to lose more weight. First starting Atkins as a teenager I managed to lose 40 pounds in "spurts" of induction. For the last two years I've been up and down the same 10 lbs, despite exercising a LOT and adding muscle under the fat. Looks good - but the only fat I've lost has been through the fat fast.

I made a plan for myself to follow until New Year to hit a goal (under 20% bf). Follow the fat fast with the exception of a) one cheat day, Friday b) Saturday a higher calorie day to be able to enjoy low carb foods that I love c) no dairy d) slightly more protein and calories to compensate for intense exercise. I cringe to say no dairy but I think it gives me diarrea. I've been eating cream cheese creations (thanks Homesar!) and last night couldn't attend bagpipe practice for fear of the pressure induced by playing pipes.

I'd love to read your results, Homesar! Not only are your posts informative they're entertaining!

Meg

ps: I don'thave a dog to imagine on a skewer, but after 5 or more days without a "break" I feel dangerous.