Carb allergy vs carb addiction

[Zuleikaa]

This is only my opinion!!!!!

Though carb allergy and carb addiction produce the same results, an uncontrollable appetite for carbs and binging, the two conditions are not alike in their causes, physical reactions and necessary treatments.

Carb allergy is a food allergy to a particular class of carbs, i.e. grains, sugars. It is like other food allergies such as dairy and yeast producing foods in that eating the food can cause a reactive increased appetite for that particular food allergen. Carb allergists' physical results, unlike those of a carb addict, can result in bloating, water retension, swollen joints, gas, diarhea, vomiting, mental fogginess and disorientation, skin eruptions and flu like symptoms. As you can see these are all negative symptoms and can make you feel very ill. Low carb diets other than CAD are the appropriate treatment for this condition as they eliminate, minimize exposure to allergens. Generally, carb allergists don't react this way to carb vegetables and fake sugars.
So, yes, carb allergists can not control themselves at a Reward Meal. They are reacting to a food allergen!

On the other hand, carb addicts react to carbs as a group and can have a reaction, yes, to grains and sugars but also to carb vegetables, even broccoli! , and fake sugars. A carb addict's physical results, unlike those of the carb allegist, include pleasure and a sense of satisfaction and not the negative physical ones above. In addition, the carb addict can feel sleepy, lethargic and drugged. But that is the point. Carbohydrates are a drug to the carbohydrate addict. Think of a heroin addict. He gets a high when using the drug but as time goes on the pleasure period gets shorter and requires higher doses and more frequent applications to attain. The same is true of a carb addict, except where the heroin addict cycles over a period of time, the carb addict cycles many times in a day. In fact every time he/she eats or eats carbs.

So you can see that you have physical reactions, i.e. craving and binging, that are the same in both cases but their underlying causes and treatments are very different. Put a carb allergist on CAD and it won't work for them. At the same time, putting a carb addict on Atkins, other than the induction phase, or one of the more moderate low carb plans won't work for them either.

I think one of the determining factors in answering the question "Carb allergy or carb addict?" is the person in question's reaction to fake sugars and sugar alcohols. Consuming fake sugars and sugar alcohols seem to bother only "true" carb addicts (my feeling ). A "true" carb addict reacts to anything carb or carb tasting, while carb allergists react only to their specific allergen(s). Another sign of a carb addict is an increased appetite or carb craving resulting from eating more than four times a day.

[Zuleikaa]

Update

[agonycat]

Originally posted by Zuleikaa
At the same time, putting a carb addict on Atkins, other than the induction phase, or one of the more moderate low carb plans won't work for them either.


I am rather curious as to how you came to this conclusion. What is so different between Atkin's induction and Atkin's OWL, that makes it not work.

[Zuleikaa]

According to the Hellers, when you spread carbs throughout the day or eat more than 4 times a day, in a Carbohydrate Addict (CA), this causes multiple and recurring insulin surges and carb cravings.

Also there are trigger/higher carb foods that are allowed on the other lc plans that are not allowed on CAD/CALP at other than the Reward Meal because they can cause increased appetite/cravings, i.e. broccoli, avocados, nuts, low GI fruits, AS (more than 3/day), sugarless gum, coffee with cream throughout the day. Therefore, when you get off induction and start adding back in some of the carbier vegetables or other than allowed CAD/CALP foods and spreading them throughout the day, you (CA) cause increased hunger/cravings and accompanying weight stall/gain. You (CA) find you have the need to eat every two hours and are often hungry and unsatisfied.

Many CAs on CAD/CALP only eat 2-3 times a day. Once their insulin is under control, they just are not hungry more often.

[agonycat]

That didn't really answer my question.

Why do you say Atkin's induction works but the later stages do not? During induction you eat carbs all day long....same as during OWL. Some Atkin's followers stay around 30 carbs a day during OWL. Are you saying 30 carbs as opposed to 20 carbs a day doesn't work?

I think this needs to be more specific as to number of carbs one eats as to just making a blanket statement that anything but Atkin's induction doesn't work for a carb addict. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't know many people following Atkin's that needs to eat every couple of hours. We tend to find more people than not lose their appietite and barely eat one or two meals a day.

I would really love to see your research numbers on this. Like how many people that are on Atkin's that you have followed for 6 months or more, as opposed to people on CAD for 6 months or more and do a comparison on the two groups.

[Tigra1965]

Dear Agonycat

I have to reply to the below statement and let you know of my experience with Atkins.

I don't know many people following Atkin's that needs to eat every couple of hours. We tend to find more people than not lose their appietite and barely eat one or two meals a day.

I agree that I did not need to eat every couple of hours, but must disagree about those on Atkins being able to eat barely one or two meals a day.

I had 3 meals aday while on atkins and snacks of nuts and low carb foods too - I just made sure I stayed within my allowed carbs.

I have to say I found that WOE very restrictive and I did try it out for at least 6 months. Because of this I would often crave foods I should not have and this is why I have converted over to CAD.

I still do occasionally have my moments - but in the end - I'm a severe CA and will lapse from time to time.

I hope you do not mind my comments.

[agonycat]

Tigra, I don't mind your comments at all. :)

Notice I did not say everyone on Atkin's? Everyone is different after all. I have yet to find anyone following the Atkin's diet having to or feeling the need to, eat every 2 hours as Zule would lead people to believe though. Mostly the hunger drops off.

If CAD suits your lifestyle that is fantastic and I am very happy you found something that does work for you personally :) For me CAD didn't work. Mainly because the reward meal triggered me wanting to eat more carbs.


It just really concerns me about false information being spread. Or assumptions being made without any real hard core research at hand. I have read the CAD books and I don't EVER recall Heller's stating that Atkin's past induction doesn't work for people. I really believe it is an individual thing based on how carbs effect a person's metabolism.

[Talon]

I still do occasionally have my moments - but in the end - I'm a severe CA and will lapse from time to time.

Is "allowing yourself to lapse" from time to time a CAD thing? Or is that just a person choice?

[luv67fire]

First of all AgonyCat, if you read the very first words from Zuleikaa's post, it says:

This is only my OPINION!!!

and you replied with:

I am rather curious as to how you came to this conclusion..

She couldn't possible be spreading false information if her post was her opinion.



Secondly,

I understand completely why some Atkins people might have a hard time after induction because if you are snacking on nuts, your body releases insulin for those carbs. If you are a true carb addict, that release of insulin affects your cravings.

While I have not been on a low-carb woe very long, after my inital drop in weight I started doing a lot of research on WHY it is working when nothing else did. I reviewed ALL of the plans out there, and searched and read through an unbelievable amount of posts and journals from multiple lowcarb forums. While this by no means makes me an expert on the subject, I feel I have a pretty good grasp on what is going on.

I found that a lot of the people who stall for a long period of time on Atkins are stalling because of a carbohydrate addiction. Those snacks that they eat in between (and MOST of them do report having some kind of carb, whether it be small or medium amount, ie. nuts) are what is stalling them. SAME with the sugar substitutes.

They have insulin resistance still, and their body will continue to store fat because of the continuing release of insulin. THey may even gain a pound or two.

MY PERSONAL OPINION on why carbohydrate ADDICTS have a hard time with CAD's Reward Meal is because they are not addicts at all, but are allergic to them. A person's chemistry and biological balance can be thrown off if they have an ALLERGY to the food they are eating. However, if it is an addiction, the Reward Meal should NOT affect them because of how insulin is released.

Your pancreas releases the insuling in two waves, the first is based on your past meals and how much insulin was released during those. On CAD, you are extremely limited so very little amount of insulin is released during RM. The second wave is 60-70 minutes after the first, and it is based on any remaining carbs being eaten during the release. Which is why going even 5 MINUTES over your RM can spell disaster for a carb addict. However, if you are allergic to a carb, it doesnt really matter WHEN you eat those carbs, because it will set of a reaction just from EATING them.

Which is why people who are allergic to carbs need to be on strict low carb diets. Like Atkins. However, people who are addicted to carbs can very easily lose weight and be happy on the CAD because it is SPECIFICALLY for carbohydrate addicts. They are not hungry or craving because of the CARBS it is because of the constant INSULIN release. Allergic people will react the CARBS - the actual food - not the insulin. Which is why they can eat sugar free foods without a reaction. And it is why addicts can NOT.

To me, it sounds like you are allergic to carbs. Which is why you could not handle the RM. Your body can't take the high amount of carbs taken in, and it reacts accordingly. However, if you were an addict, and ate within the hour, the only reason why you would cheat, would be psychological. I know that there has been a few times where I THINK I want something, after my RM, but I know it is in my mind. I can tell when it is a physiological craving when after my RM i feel very lethargic or I get a false hunger a couple hours later. I've only had that once, when I had a few almonds, but forgot to start the hour then, and started eating about 20 minutes later. I basically started my insulin release when I ate the almonds, and by the time I started my actual meal and finished it, it was over an hour and my body understood I was eating high carbs and released a LARGE second wave of insulin. Which in turn gave me the lethargic feeling and hunger afterwards. I have NEVER had that any other time during my RM. That is how I know I am a carb ADDICT.

Again, this is through my studying journals of people who are different low carb plans, and through their own personal posting in the forums.

Essentially, this is my OBSERVATION which allows me to form my OPINION. Since i DO NOT have the resources available to conduct a scientific study, I can not say that this is fact. I do agree with nearly all Zuleikaa has been saying and believe she has done her own research as well, as with personal experience.

I do not see any fallacies here....

[agonycat]

I actually think you missed the point of my question.

I realized it was her opinion. I can read and comprehend the english language very well thank you.

I asked how she came to her conclusion that ONLY Atkin's Induction works for the Carb Addict while Atkin's OWL does not. Since both are very similar in the plan, the only difference being the carb levels. Instead of answering that she chose to quote Heller findings, but I do not recall Hellers ever saying Atkin's didn't work.

Making a blanket statement that Atkin's followers eat every 2 hours or more than 4 times a day, is also a false claim as I know very few that eat that much. I simply asked for references, study/research materials that lead her to believe what she wrote. It's not a personal attack on her in anyway. I merely am curious as to what has lead her to her opinion.

She posted her original opinion on Nov 1, and bumped it up just today so everyone could see it one more time. I figured she was wanting someone to debate her on the issues since she keeps bringing it to the top of the forum.

:D

I firmly believe both diets have their followers for various reasons. Neither is right or wrong. Both work for different people. I know plenty of carbohydrate addicts following Atkin's that can not follow CAD, and plenty that can not follow Atkin's that do just fine on CAD. I for one fall into the can't do CAD.

This forum is ment for Low Carbers in general and is not ment as a bashing ground for one diet over another. It is not ment to prove one diet is better than the other. We support each other in one goal and that is to lose weight. It doesn't matter which diet you chose to follow.

[luv67fire]

I did miss the original point of the question, you are right. I will get to that in a minute.

I'm sorry if you felt that that was an attack on my part, I meant nothing by it.

Originally posted by agonycat:
It just really concerns me about false information being spread. Or assumptions being made without any real hard core research at hand. I have read the CAD books and I don't EVER recall Heller's stating that Atkin's past induction doesn't work for people. I really believe it is an individual thing based on how carbs effect a person's metabolism.

I just didn't see why that was necessary, since she stated in the beginning that it was her opinion. Perhaps you didn't mean it in the way I took it...

It is also not uncommon for Atkins followers to snack in between meals. It is not uncommon for ANY diet, lowcarb or lowfat. I guess the journals I read through must have been a coincidence, because a lot of them are eating nuts or some other low carb snack in between.

You keep referring to Zuleikaa saying a "blanket statement" that Atkins followers eat every 2-3 hours.

Originally posted by Zuleikaa:
Therefore, when you get off induction and start adding back in some of the carbier vegetables or other than allowed CAD/CALP foods and spreading them throughout the day, you (CA) cause increased hunger/cravings and accompanying weight stall/gain. You (CA) find you have the need to eat every two hours and are often hungry and unsatisfied.

She is saying that that AFTER induction, the carbs that are added back in are triggering reactions in a carbohydrate addict, and in turn, they will feel the need to snack or eat again in a few hours. I believe that this statement above was the answer to your question.

Induction works because you are eating such a low amount of carbs, your insulin never gets very high, even if it is released 4 or 5 times. Remember, the first wave is based on previous meals, and if you have been eating 20 grams or less the entire day, you just aren't getting much insulin in your body period.

Originally posted by agonycat:
I think this needs to be more specific as to number of carbs one eats as to just making a blanket statement that anything but Atkin's induction doesn't work for a carb addict. Wouldn't you agree?

It is not really a matter of number of carbs, it is realy a matter of how much insulin is produced from that particular food. If they eat a moderate amount of broccoli, or diet soda, it may cause their (they as in carb addict) insulin to rise and in turn make them hungry or unsatisfied earlier and more frequently. To someone who is allergic to carbs, YES the number of carbs is VERY important. They just can't take in a large amount. Period. THeir body reacts to the CARBS. The actual amount of food. Whereas the addict reacts to the INSULIN. If you want to go into numbers, it would be the glycemic index. The higher the GI number, the more it will affect a carb addict, even if it is a low number of carbohydrate grams.


Originally posted by agonycat:
This forum is ment for Low Carbers in general and is not ment as a bashing ground for one diet over another. It is not ment to prove one diet is better than the other. We support each other in one goal and that is to lose weight. It doesn't matter which diet you chose to follow.

I am, again, sorry if you took my post as a bashing against anyone or any plan. I personally feel that if you are allergic to carbs, you should definitely NOT be on CAD. And if you are an addict, you probably won't do so well on Atkins.

I am not (nor is Zuleikaa, as far as I've read) attacking Atkins nor any other plan, just posting on why it works for some and doesn't for others.

As I read the the Confession Forum, and see some of the Atkins people stall and continue cheating, I read their journals and see a direct correlation between snacks like sugar substitutes and nutes or alcohol and their hunger and snacking. If this thread was posted in a place that more might see it, they might understand they are they either addicted or allergic to carbs and that might explain why WHATEVER PLAN THEY ARE ON is not working. If we see someone on here that is not doing well, especially during RMs, I know I would most likely suggest that he/she is allergic, and need to be on a stricter low carb plan. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing wrong from switching to Atkins to CAD either.

[agonycat]

In her second post:


According to the Hellers, when you spread carbs throughout the day or eat more than 4 times a day, in a Carbohydrate Addict (CA), this causes multiple and recurring insulin surges and carb cravings.

Therefore, when you get off induction and start adding back in some of the carbier vegetables or other than allowed CAD/CALP foods and spreading them throughout the day, you (CA) cause increased hunger/cravings and accompanying weight stall/gain. You (CA) find you have the need to eat every two hours and are often hungry and unsatisfied.

Many CAs on CAD/CALP only eat 2-3 times a day. Once their insulin is under control, they just are not hungry more often.

She makes it sound like people that follow Atkin's eat more meals than CAD followers which isn't true. We both eat pretty much the same amount during the day. I mostly eat 2 meals a day sometimes 3, and very rarely snack. Which is why I said I would love to see her research materials. This is the blanket statement I am refering to. I don't know many Atkin's followers that eat 4 times a day nor every 2 hours. I think this statement alone sends the wrong message to people.

As for the nuts. Well I can't answer that because Atkin's doesn't say in his book eat nuts every day. It's a personal choice. I chose not to eat them mainly because they are too dang salty for my liking. :)

In the confession booth you find people of all plans falling off the wagon. Protein power, CAD, Atkin's, Sugarbusters. I think there are more Atkin's people due to the fact it is a more publicized and popular diet than CAD.

I think my main point is: Be a little less opinionated and more objective when comparing plans. Like I said it's not which one is wrong. Neither are. It's not which one works better. They both do. It's totally up to the single individual person following the diet, and you can't fault that on the diet itself if it fails. Can we?

Have a pleasant rest of the weekend. :)

:wave:

[luv67fire]

Ahhhh!! I see!

I think that her post might have been misinterpreted.

She is saying that AFTER induction, when you add more of the starchier/carbier vegetables in (like broccoli), and spreading them throughout the day, a carb addict can become hungry and stall. Spreading them throughout the day does not mean eating 6 times, it means, you are eating those carbie veggies or whathaveyou throughout the day, instead of only during one time. Once a carb addict is hungry, he/she can still have the willpower to continue, but with a low carb snack. Usually, if there was too much insulin released because of a higher carb veggie (or other things allowed on Atkins, but not in CAD) than the hunger can come again in a few hours. Meaning they might feel the urge to snack more often. Whether or not they do in Atkins or whatever else plan doesnt matter, it is just that if they are an ADDICT, they might feel hungry in a few hours. THAT generally leads to snacking or cheats, but again, it DOESN'T matter.

When she said that if you eat more than 4 times a day, does not mean 4 meals. I agree with you, most people on MOST of the low carb plans (including Atkins) eat 2-3 MEALS per day. No one will argue that. However, the difference is that with a carb addict, you simply can NOT snack. A simple diet soda can throw a carb addict's day completely off if not had within a specified time.

The nuts are just used as an example. It is a generally low carb snack those a lot of people turn to. I love nuts and if allowed, I would snack on them just cause I love the texture and taste.

I knew I shouldn't have breathed the word Atkins in that paragraph about the Confession booth. I was just saying that if a thread like this was posted in a forum like that, some people might understand why they are not doing well or stalling in a particular plan, whether it be PP or CAD. If you go through their journals, the main reason why they end up cheating are because they felt hungry or had a craving, or the environment they were in (ie lack of planning ahead when going to a wedding, etc). The environment thing is not the diets problem. It is the persons. The hungry or craving IS not a FAULT of the diet. It is merely because some people go into a plan seeing that it has worked for others and is popular and might work for them too. I just hate to see someone stop Low Carbing because ONE plan did not work. I would rather them try a different plan then continue with the frustration of a multiple month long stall. I know what it is like to do everything a diet tells you to do and not lose wieght, or even worse, gain some.

It is all about the individual, and if you are a carb addict, insulin is your problem. If you are allergic to carbs, then the carbs themselves are the problem. I think that most people are ALLERGIC to carbs. Which means that Atkins and other carb counting plans will be VERY benifitial for that person. However, if you are a carb ADDICT, just limiting your carbs won't help. You have to understand HOW your body releases insulin, WHEN it releases insulin, and WHY it releases insulin. If you can control your insulin release, you can control your addiction.

::sigh::
Originally posted by agonycat:
I think my main point is: Be a little less opinionated and more objective when comparing plans. Like I said it's not which one is wrong. Neither are. It's not which one works better. They both do. It's totally up to the single individual person following the diet, and you can't fault that on the diet itself if it fails. Can we?
I really feel compelled to be sarcastic, and have rewritten my response to this paragraph about 5 times so far. I will refrain from doing so though...

Let me put it in the NICEST way possible here: If you look at the comparison for the CAD diet on this website, you'll see a note saying that some people have a hard time with the RM, with no explanation of why. I (along with Zuleikaa) am interested in finding out WHY they have a problem, and why some people don't.

I'm also interested in finding out WHY some people stall on Atkins OR ANY OTHER STRICT CARB COUNTING PLAN for 3 to four months and why some people lose weight at a steady pace. There are MANY reasons why that you have already found out, is it impossible that there are more?? Especially since there seems to be SOME people who have really adverse reactions to carbs, but not sugar substitutes and low carb foods. And there are SOME people who do not get adverse reactions, yet still get hungry and lethargic after eating meals, but feel really good while eating them. THERE MUST BE A DIFFERENCE. And since EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT, we can not say that the only reason why people on CAD can handle the RM is willpower. It just ISNT SO!

I will never say that Atkins or CAD is better than ANY other plan out there. YOU WILL NEVER SEE ME POST THAT. I completely understand it is not about which is better than the other. However, I do feel that some are better for DIFFERENT people. Not everyone will do well on Atkins, as with not everyone will do better on CAD. PLEASE stop telling me that, as I ALREADY UNDERSTAND. I would care less about addiction vs. allergy if I thought one or the other was better.

Another thing, you said:

Originally posted by agonycat:
It's totally up to the single individual person following the diet, and you can't fault that on the diet itself if it fails. Can we?

YES, we can! Otherwise, why did the low fat diet I was previously on NOT WORK FOR ME??????? Should I have stayed on it longer? Should I have thrown away the idea that maybe, JUST MAYBE, I should try a low carb plan, because perhaps, it may WORK FOR ME????? Or should I have taken your advice? And said, no, it is totally up to the single individual person following this diet, and I can not fault my low fat diet itself if I'm not losing weight and always hungry, can I? Or should I?


Listen, I really don't wish to stir things up with you, and to me, your posts are very defensive of the Atkins diet. It is too defensive because no one ever said that Atkins diet was wrong or anything. In fact, no one even said that Atkins followers eat more than 2-3 meals!! Please go through and read them again, (walking on ICE HERE) not because you can not understand the english language or have poor comprehension. But because maybe you misinterpreted something?? Is it possible??

Please, I do not want you to feel like I am attacking you personally, but really, it seems like all Zuleikaa was trying to do was post her opinion on allergy vs. addiction. God forbid she mention the word Atkins ever again. Perhaps she should say, "low carb counting plan"? Technically, CAD could be that as well... please, enlighten us with a term deemed appropriate so that we may avoid using the Atkins plan as an example. If that is what it takes, then seriously, I would appreciate it, because I do not enjoy "run-ins" like this, especially over something so innocent....

[agonycat]

Since this isn't a low fat diet board, I would have assumed you would take my statement to refer to low carb diets and not the low fat ones. My mistake.

Anyway....I am unsure why you "feel you are stirring things up with me". Since my questions were directed more towards Zule and not you. You chose to answer on her behalf without really knowing exactly what she was intending when she typed what she did.

Unless of course you are her pretending to be someone else :) In that case it makes perfect sense. :D

Other than that it makes for a healthy discussion as long as both sides keep their cool. Which we have and I appriecate you not getting sarcastic with me since this thread nor myself has warranted such behavior.

ttfn

[luv67fire]

Well, I think I got the gist of things when commented on comparing plans... meaning low carb plans... but it does apply in any sitauation, and does apply here. Just because it is low carb, does not mean it is going to work for everyone. Both you and I agree on that.

A side note: I don't think thepurpose was to compare plans, and I think that is what I have been trying to point out. We are comparing allergy to addiction... A comparison of plans has already been made and if one feels they have an addiction, they would go to an appropriate plan, as would someone who has an allergy to carbs.

I feel a lot of defense coming from you, which is why I said I didn't want to "Stir things up". I don't mean to attack personally and have intentionally tried to avoid such.

I understand your questions were intended towards Zule, but if you were meaning something JUST for her, a private message would have been more appropriate. Excuse me for butting in, I just thought this was a public forum... that's all.

I guess I didn't read her intentions, if they were to bash Atkins, because as someone reading through it, I didn't get that at all. But if you feel that was her intent, than I guess I was out of line and your comment on spreading false information and assumptions was perfectly acceptable.

Now knowing her intent was to bash Atkins, I guess I should not have said anything. I thought she was posting her opinion on carb addiction vs carb allergy, as the title of the post implied.... I am not so good at reading between the lines I guess....

[Zuleikaa]

Thank you. Thank you.

I couldn't have said it better myself. You were clear, articulate and stated my position precisely. Again, thank you.

[slimmin]

Since this thread was posted in the CAD/CALP forum, I can only think that it was intended primarily for people who are either already on CAD or already thinking about making a switch.

I have read and re-read the original post several times trying to figure out why it set off such a strong reaction from Agonycat. I certainly didn't see it as an attack on Atkins or as any kind of comparison of the 2 plans.

Based on my own experience, I have to agree with what Zule wrote. I was on Atkins for more than 4 months. I stalled as soon as I finished Induction - I stayed the same weight for over 3 months. And most of the time, I kept my net carbs under 30. I only ate 3 meals a day, but I snacked frequently ... on nuts (pecans), on SF Jello, and on LC choc. I was hungry most evenings. Eventually, I began to cheat.

I only switched to CAD 3 weeks ago. I haven't cheated yet, and I have no urge to snack. I eat huge reward meals, loaded with all kinds of bad HC foods, but they have yet to set off a binge. And, I have lost weight and am now below the weight at which I stalled for months on Atkins.

Maybe another difference is that the Hellers seem to count total carbs, not net carbs as Atkins does (which would explain their ban on nuts).

I am NOT saying that CAD is a better plan than Atkins, and I don't think that Zule was either. I AM saying that CAD seems to work better for ME than Atkins.

[plum]

I hope I can add to the debate ( and maybe make things clearer) by posting my experience.

Unfortunately its only " anecdotal evidence" but here goes.

I believe in the Dr Atkins woe 100%.... , I have 4 friends at home having great success, not to mention my many internet friends.

However, I have spent a total of 20 months with my own Atkins woe, stuck. Not for the want of trying, and I am grateful for the help and support I recieved.

I lost in induction, but then nothing, despite all the "tweaks". I vowed to never give up but my lament was always "why did I lose on induction and none since " I had carbs up, carbs down cals up, down, you name it !

In the end feeling a total failure, I finally admitted... Atkins doesnt work for me. I was terribly disappointed as I believe in it so much. I was beginning to accept that Atkins could help me maintain my weight.

then, desperately... and desperately is the word..... I browsed CAD forum.... to read..

"at the same time putting a carb addict on Atkins, other than the induction phase or one of the other more moderate LC plans, wont work for them either"

I recognised myself at last. I AM that person

I cried with relief. Then I went out to buy CAD. I had picked it up in the bookshop, and at a quick glance, thought.... no way - fad diet. But on reading it.... it dawned on me..... snow pea broccoli, cream, my Atkins staples..... were these sabotaging my efforts ? I couldnt believe what I was reading, but it made sense.

Well, its early days, Im 2 weeks in, and have lost 2 lb. But ... I have that feeling that all Atkins people have--- the energy, the alertness---- that I never had before.

I now believe wholeheartedly that there are a group of people that Atkins just wont work for. I can only speak from personal experience on this one. Im so glad I read these threads.

:) sorry this turned into an epic :) to summarise, yes I think there is a case to carry such statements in our forums, and with additional debate theres a wealth of information for us LC ers.

[JoaniePA]

I find this thread to be fascinating (not the banter, mind you, but the topic). I have believed for a year now that I am both carb addicted, AND allergic to certain carbs. BOTH. If I eat more than a miniscule amount of any wheat product I immediately begin the bloat, cramp, gas thing. followed by a desire for more, more, more. Rice and potatos and other high carb vegies have zero effect in the bloat, cramp, gas thingie. My mom is like this, as is my brother who struggles mightily with the RM and has gone back to Atkins because of it. Realizing this, I try to tailor my RMs and CMs so that my wheat intake is minimal, soy based baked goods if I have 'em, but I follow all other aspects of CAD (not CALP). I have no problem at all with any other high carbohydrate food at the RM in terms of bloating etc. and binging after.

I'd be very interested to know if others have come to the same conclusion.

Joanie

[luv67fire]

Joanie,

I don't know if I actually posted anything about people who are both, or if I just meant to.

However, from reading through the endless journals and the patterns that emerged from then, I did see that that there were some people with both an allergy and an addiction.

For instance, Plum, might have a resistance against eggs. Since only that effects her, it means she is allergic. A carb addict should not have such effects from the small amount of carbs that eggs contain. However, since she does, she must have an allergy of sorts. It is a trigger food for her.

I believe that in cases where one has both an allergy AND an addiction, than they would be best suiting both. Do CAD or CALP, but take out those "trigger" foods or the foods you find yourself allergic to. If it is near to impossible, especially with the RM, than another plan would be more appropriate. However, since CMs requre such little amount of carbs, and the RM can allow ANY high carb, and not just wheat (in your case), you can put in high carb veggies, like you suggested. Or sweets, if that doesn't get ya too.

Either way, I think that the low carb plans out there are enough to fill most people's needs. If they have a specific problem (ie candida or diabetes) there are plans for that. There are plans for carb addicts, and there are plans for people who want to eliminate carbs almost entirely. All in all, it is about what your body reacts to and it is SO important that we listen to it. I know that most of us here have no problem with that, though!! lol, one of the many reasons why we saw CAD/LP in the first place!!!

[plum]

it occurred to me that I was so busy going on about "me" :) that I didnt actually answer Agonycats question. And yes Agonycat you are right because to me its a bit of a puzzle as well.

but I can only attempt to answer with anecdotal evidence again. Ive done induction x2. Both times lost 10 - 12 lb then siezed up.

During induction I ate meats and salads. As I was previously doing " healthy hi carb low fat" I think my body went into shock ;) dumped the water weight and a bit of fat. Most lost during the first week.

Then I got happy with the loss and added back.... cos I wanted to stay healthy.... broccoli, peppers, eggs.
( the very things I think I am sensitive to)

I also tried increasing snacks, as my cals were at about 1,200.

CAs ( as opposed to "normal" whatever that is :) ) can react with insulin response to food ans snacks eaten at other times than RM. This includes reaction to cream, or milk in drinks to veg like broccoli and snow pea.
No snacKs and eating 4 times or less is better for a CA ( and with me, its proving to be 2 - 3 only.) with trying to get my cals up, I was eating 5-6x.

What would have happened if Id stayed on just meat and salad ? dont know, but even with K+ I was feeling weak.

luv67fire and JoaniePA, yes I think youre right and people can be both. I think my time on Atkins, and my food choices were fairly limited , made me more sensitive to what I react to.... Ive been able to tell whats upsetting me from my food diaries.

[skyspinner]

While I am always in favour of open discussion, and while I appreciate the level of knowledge and experience apparent in Z's defenders, I must deplore the tone of this thread as a bit too confrontational. Some of us are making efforts to remain congenial and open-minded.....I would hope that we all could do so.

Surely we are all aware that everything each of us says is an "opinion"? That none of us are scientific researchers, that there is no "research" at hand to display? If we had to be in posession of solidly proven facts before making a comment, the valuable interchange of ideas and opinions on these BBS would surely die off.

While there may indeed be some scientists among us, I would venture to say that they are few, and that most of us are simply relaying our beliefs and experiences. We do not deserve to be attacked for this behaviour. It is in the discussion that each of us has the opportunity to decide what we believe. Anything that closes off such discussion is counter-productive. And I really doubt that updating a post always indicates that one is looking for a debate. Sometimes it just means that the question has been raised again and one would like others to read it again.

I for one, thought that Z had adequately answered agonycat's point of why Induction works for CAs while OWL does not when she talked about adding more carby foods during OWL. I do not see how she could have specified a level of carbs to support her opinion....this must be a very individual level.

It seems to me (this is my OPINION) that Z has had experience w/ Atkins for herself and has read of the experiences of others and that is how she came to the conclusions she stated. This kind of basis for her opinion could not possibly have been based in any sort of formal research activity, but is empiric in nature. The Hellers appear to depend upon empiric knowledge a great deal, although they also are fortunate enough to be able to practice more formal research methods.

I am very glad that so many CADettes came here and voiced their beliefs.....it shows that they have developed some beliefs! As each of us forges his or her own plan for success, beliefs are pretty much what we go on......in my opinion. :)

Now let us go forward amicably, shall we? There is gold to be mined here in each others opinions, and our success depends on it.

[JoaniePA]

Huh..?? Am I now a CADette? :D How cute!

I don't have any beliefs, just theories, and I'm old enough to know that MOST of my theories are usually disproved to some degree! (my hubby and I have regular bets, and I am nearly always proved wrong.. so I make sure I can afford to lose the ante!)

Being rather new to the Board (but not new to LCing) I find the overly sarcastic nature of some of posts to be a bit off-putting, but I try to ignore it as best I can and focus on what I came here for. Anyhow, it's very easy to "read" things the wrong way when you can't see someone's face and body language.

sigh....

best,
Joanie

[luv67fire]

I agree, CADette, has a nice ring! Lol...

If anyone has taken offense in my posts, or found them to be sarcastic in nature, I truly am sorry. I honestly tried to avoid that, and was just trying to get the point across. Feel free to PM with any concerns, as I am willing to apologize for any misconceptions that may have taken place :) I debate on multiple boards, and might have brought too much of that "tone" into this one.

Either way, as reading through this thread, I believe it to be very informative, and one that people new to CAD would benefit in reading. It might help them realize that there are reasons behind stalls, in most plans, and listening to your body can be the number one key to finding out. Agonycat's questions may have just made it more in depth and detail, which is a good thing! All in all, I think people should continue to add to it, so we might build a honest experience based "study" of sorts. To testify whether they feel they have an addiction, allergy, or both.

I know my problem is pure addiction. I have no harsh reactions to carbs, never have. I just get all the "addict" signs when eaten in abundance. My mother, who tried this woe for about two weeks, has "allergic" reactions to sugar. She is definitely addicted to carbs, but sugar gives her migraines, sick tummy, etc. LOL, she stopped doing CAD though, she just couldn't kick the rice!! But with all the weight loss and the loss of hunger and cravings I had, she is starting to give it a closer look. I gave her both CALP AND Atkins book, so she might decide for herself which one is better.

[skyspinner]

Thanks, Cassie.....that makes a lot of sense! :)

Oh, and I didn't take offense at anything you said.....don't even think about that! I think we got off quite a few posts back, but everybody has generally just been super! And taken a lot of care in expressing his or her opinions. (There's that word again!!!) :lol:

Keep it coming, folks....

[chazel]

Just to say that I have much enjoyed reading this 'debate', and find such spicy posts much more interesting and informative than always 'afraid to offend/sugary' replies. I am now going to do more 'insulin provoking' experiments on myself as I am a bit stuck at the moment. I am so pleased this board exists - otherwise I would have lost interest long ago!

[Zuleikaa]

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[KittenLady]

Hi, fellow CADettes and others, too!

Even though part of this thread looks like it's from "The War Zone" ;) , I have evidence in my own life for both carb addiction AND carb allergies.

A few years ago, I went on an elimination diet to attempt to stop chronic daily migraines by figuring out if it was something I was eating. This was before hypoglycemia hit. Lo and Behold, my major migraine trigger is corn, but not all of corn, just the carb part! I can eat corn oil, but anything with cornstarch or corn syrup can make me really sick -- usually migraine, often with nausea and horrible gas. By going off corn products, I got rid of 2/3 of my headaches. But what's weird is that I can end up craving popcorn. I don't eat it, but WOW, sometimes I have to have my DH hide the popcorn! I don't go to movie theaters too often, partly because there's popcorn everywhere.

Then, I started Atkins. No wheat products. Guess what?-- the rest of my digestive woes went away with the wheat.

I also know that when I have a bad allergic reaction to anything, I really swell up badly, all over. :tears: It's very uncomfortable, and sometimes life-threatening when my tongue joins my extremities in swelling up.

So, from personal experience, I have both carb addictions and carb allergies. Thought I'd throw in my two cents!

[Zuleikaa]

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[Sparker34]

Thank you for the update. It's exactly what I needed to read. I also am probably allergic AND addicted. Though I don't know exactly what the triggers are. I know taht when I do eat carbs, I can have ice cream with relativily low problems the next day. BUt have some cookies or cake, and I'm in trouble. But I have intolerances..which are very different from allergies.

[Zuleikaa]

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[momto4boys]

I have to say I always thought I was a CA, but I think I have some allergy symptoms too. *sigh* Oh well-- I will just stick with it and see how it goes.

[Zuleikaa]

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[DeanaJane]

This thread really needs to be back up at the top. WOW what an eye opener. This has been very informative and has made me really think a lot. Now I know I have some research to do with my body. Artificial sweeteners might very well be a big problem for me. Sad thing, while on Atkins, my sf syrup (DaVinci) has been the one thing I always said saved me from many carb fested meals. Kept me sane. Now I wonder if it's really the cause to my insanity. Very good food for thought.

Thanks Z

Deana

[Lessara]

I agree with this post. Atkins and CAD both work for me. CAD just makes low carbing easier on my family. CAD has reduced my cravings as long as I don't ever eat my allergy foods. I discovered by writing down what I crave for and what I eat on a binge that the foods are all allergy foods and I get major cravings even if I eat them only at my reward meal. Pasta, Bread, Chocolate, Cheese, Tomatoes, Beans, Wheat, MSG, and Soy all cause me cravings... oh and Eggs. I may not break out anymore or get stomach problems but the cravings are what is killing me. Thankfully potatoes and rice are still on my reward meals and my family is fine with that. I serve fresh bread slices so I can easily avoid them. The biggest troublemaker is MSG which is in everything. I have to make my own broth, gravy etc to avoid it. I even found it in hot dogs! Annoying!

[Zuleikaa]

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[Zuleikaa]

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[Zuleikaa]

Bumping it as requested.

[momto4boys]

is the person in question's reaction to fake sugars and sugar alcohols. Consuming fake sugars and sugar alcohols seem to bother only "true" carb addicts

This is me! I am a carb addict. I react to the fake sugars so strongly. I wish I didn't, but I do.

I am Jill, and I am a carb addict and TG I am no longer in denial. :D

[babydoss]

Now I KNOW what has been wrong with me ALL these years!

I am ALLERGIC to carbs! My ankles would swell, especially in the hot summer months here in NC (May to Oct) and I could not wear anything but tennis shoes. When I started Atkins in May 2003 my ankles went down to normal (after a month or so) and I could actually see the veins on the top of my foot! I was bloated beyond comprehension. I even went to an Endocrine Dr at Duke and all he could tell me what that I needed to lose weight. They even tried to charge me for a urine test that NEVER got performed. That man was rude and I just gave up at that point (that was probably in 2001).

Anyway, I am SO happy to see that there IS an explanation for all of my symptoms. Why can't the doctors see this?

Thanks!