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  #16   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 10:53
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 35,702
 
Plan: DANDR '92
Stats: 236/181/140 Female 165 cm
BF:
Progress: 57%
Location: Eastern ON, Canada
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Quote:
originally posted by Sthrn Tami
If anyone out there is still reading this ridiculous thread, please let me know how to ignore this thread so that I don't get any further messages via email.

Tami .. in the notification email, you'll see the option to unsubscribe from this thread, or from all subscribed threads. Click on the option of your choice, that should do the trick.

The default is to receive email notification for all threads you've participated in. If you wish, you can change this in your User Control panel ... just click the profile icon at the top right of the page. Select Edit Options, scroll down to "Use 'Email Notification' by default?" and select no. Be sure to click Submit.

Note though that this will prevent emails for future threads. You will continue to be emailed for current threads until you unsubscribe from them.

~~~~~~~~~~~

As for the asshole comment, I didn't see it as a personal attack. Like Tami, I interpreted as a tongue-in-cheek quip about having personal opinions. Please read the Sticky post at the top of this forum, titled "The War Zone. Please read before posting here." This thread was moved from the General Low-Carb forum to the War Zone section, which is more appropriate for such arguments and debate.

However, blatant personal attacks and flames are a direct violation of the Registration agreement, and will result in suspension of the offender's account.

Doreen
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  #17   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 11:43
Toner Toner is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 16
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 180/177/168
BF:
Progress: 25%
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I'll put your age somewhere around 70 for the ASSUME joke. Man, that jokes is older than me!

Wow. I can't believe the "meat" of your argument is used up on offenses instead of the subject at hand. If you actually HAVE any facts at all to back up your arugments, please submit them. Otherwise I will ASSUME I have won the debate. So far, as I have stated before, you have been nothing but hot air and sensitivity, a bad role model for a Dr. Atkins diet subscriber.

And why would you call this argument ridiculous anyway? I have presented some good studies and have successfully rebutted provocative posts. As far as debates go, it would seem I am arguing with a bunch of children crying, "No it isn't," or "I know you are but what am I?" Some psychologists believe that people ridicule what they don't undserstand, or cannot argue against. I think you make a lovely case in point.

Too bad you let your fear of the truth hamper your debating skills. You ame out with such a bang but really faded in the home stretch. Maybe next time.
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  #18   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 12:50
Thelma's Avatar
Thelma Thelma is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 215
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 178/166.0/140 Female 5'9"/174cm
BF:30.4/30.4/25?
Progress: 32%
Location: Southern Indiana
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Quote:
Originally posted by Toner
I think the best approach to the Atkins diet is to treat it as a fast working diet to accomplish your weight goals, and then to switch to a truly healthy WOE, which includes low fat foods and moderate carbs. Basically, anything in moderation.


Quote:
Originally posted by Toner
I am personally glad to be my ideal weight for a 31 year old male, 175 lbs, 5'10" athletic build. The dark hair and blue eyes don't hurt either. P.


I wonder..... if you are your ideal weight, was exactly are you doing following some unhealty, unbalanced eating plan????
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  #19   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 13:11
Toner Toner is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 16
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 180/177/168
BF:
Progress: 25%
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I need to lose a quick 5 pounds for hockey season and Atkins induction is the easiest way to do it. Duh. Read my posts people, please, before asking useless and redundant questions. I think I've summed things up so neatly even simpletons can make sense of it if they read it a few times.
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  #20   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 13:13
Toner Toner is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 16
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 180/177/168
BF:
Progress: 25%
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By the way Thelma, you look pretty cute in that pic. I'd do the induction with yo uanytime.
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  #21   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 13:19
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
Forum Founder
Posts: 35,702
 
Plan: DANDR '92
Stats: 236/181/140 Female 165 cm
BF:
Progress: 57%
Location: Eastern ON, Canada
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re - Atkins' "heart attack" and "bypass" ...

He suffered a cardiac arrest caused by cardiomyopathy .. a thickening of the heart muscle due to an infection, not clogged arteries. Here's the CNN news report of the incident .. (of course, we can only assume that CNN is not on Atkins' payroll ) .. http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/diet...25/atkins.diet/


re - Atkins' funding of the Duke University study ...

I've read this statement elsewhere, and while it's partially true, it's misleading. According to the Duke University Medical Center report:
Quote:
The study appears in the July 2002 issue of the American Journal of Medicine and was funded by an unrestricted grant from the Atkins Center for Complementary Medicine.

read the full brief here.

So ... what is an Unrestricted Grant?? According to Duke University's Accounting Dept. policies, procedures and terminology ..
Quote:
Grants: Unrestricted: refers to gifts or bequests to the University where the donors have not specified how the gift or bequest is to be used.

http://www.finsvc.duke.edu/finsvc/gap/rev32xx.html
If you go to Duke University's Office of Research Support, you'll find links to details as to how grant monies are awarded.

Unrestricted grant monies are administered by an unbiased third party committee, to study proposals which have been developed and meet strict guidelines prior to application. This is totally different from research solicited by a drug company, for example, which directs and controls the implementation of the study, and the results that are obtained.

The grant money provided by Atkins Research organization did not involve any influence or restriction on the Duke study nor its results. In fact, the media release of the study indicate that the researchers were surprised by the results, as they were expecting quite different.

Doreen
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  #22   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 13:19
Nems's Avatar
Nems Nems is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 155
 
Plan: own version of LC
Stats: 180/163/145 Female 5' 8"
BF:
Progress: 49%
Location: Austin, Texas
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Hiya Toner

Tami was right...I wasn't calling you personally an ahole...it was just a saying I heard many years back which I found very amusing the same way I found your choice of words in your first post very amusing. Funny thing....I thought you were a female until I read one of your last posts...guess because I don't know of many men who look bad with a little extra weight.

I'm not one for debate because I have to admit I haven't done extensive research on either side. All I know is this diet is helping me change my eating habits and to eat more balanced meals in the long run. Of course my main objective was to lose weight and still is.....Oh my....vanity is still there after 43 three years.
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 13:34
Toner Toner is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 16
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 180/177/168
BF:
Progress: 25%
Default

Hello and good afternoon ladies. It's nice to be back in the good books, even if only for awhile.

Agonycat - it is a pleasure to receive your informative post about the Duke funding fiasco.

Nems - thanks for the explanation and I ask your forgiveness for being cheeky earlier on (this goes for all of you).

Thelma I still think you're cute even if you hate me.

Okay, back to the discussion. Unrestricted grant to me means "here's some money - make me look good." I don't know what it means technically and I won't pretend to although I KNOW it's a little fishy, as is all political funding. It's just that way.

Having said this, I must admit I have not felt better on any diet as I have on Atkins. This diet makes me energetic, lively and slim. Health implications are not a factor for me as I do not have high cholesterol or diabetes, and I'm pretty sure my body's up for a little ketosis. Again, I fear the long term results because it just does not FEEL right eating loads of cheese and meat and eggs while leaving fruit and vegetables and complex carbs behind. SOmeone on this board sais they were up to 60 grams of carbs a day now. Oh wow - what's that? A potato? Please....

The AHA's recommendations are sound. Eat fruit in abundance and fat in moderation and weight and health will take care of themeselves. Oh ya folks - excercise plays a part in this too. I know a lot of us hate it, including me, but it's totally necessary to sweat it up frequently. The modern office job is pure evil. We work for the man getting nowhere fast while we can actually feel the fat forming on our asess. Thank God my work has a gym, which Iuse religiously every lunch hour for weight training. By the way, did you know that weight training counts as cardio and each pound of muscle burns twice as much as each pound of fat? Get those weights out!

So, to end this rather long rant....the unrestricted grant, in my interpretation means "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" pure and simple.

Now back to my salami and brie.
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  #24   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 13:42
nsmith4366's Avatar
nsmith4366 nsmith4366 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 691
 
Plan: Atkins KISS
Stats: //
BF:
Progress:
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Brace yourself - I disagree. But I know you can handle that.
Just follow your own path. What works for YOU cannot work for everyone/we are all different in so many ways.

Thank you everyone for proving one thing. I love this message area/forum/website. THIS and only this one allows for HEATED and sometimes humourous areas of blatent disagreement. It's REFESHING to hear other people's points of view...

...especially if they challenge well ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.

Stay brave, speak your minds and above all, continue to respect the view of the other - kindness and expression do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Don't be afraid to post it, boast it or "toast" it (as in "your toast")...debate it til it drops - how else are we ever going to learn to live and share this space TOGETHER?

N

Last edited by nsmith4366 : Thu, Dec-05-02 at 13:44.
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 14:11
Toner Toner is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 16
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 180/177/168
BF:
Progress: 25%
Default

That's right NSmith. You go girl! Or is it boy? Maybe Nicole Smith? Hmmm....
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  #26   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 14:32
mnokat's Avatar
mnokat mnokat is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 666
 
Plan: VLC
Stats: 248/188.8/148 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 59%
Location: MA, USA
Default I wasn't going to do it...

I really wasn't. I was going to avoid this discussion completely. Alas, my years as a debater have kicked my common sense into the ground yet again... so,

Quote:
Having said this, I must admit I have not felt better on any diet as I have on Atkins. This diet makes me energetic, lively and slim. Health implications are not a factor for me as I do not have high cholesterol or diabetes, and I'm pretty sure my body's up for a little ketosis. Again, I fear the long term results because it just does not FEEL right eating loads of cheese and meat and eggs while leaving fruit and vegetables and complex carbs behind. SOmeone on this board sais they were up to 60 grams of carbs a day now. Oh wow - what's that? A potato? Please....


First of all, I want to state for the record that I do not follow the Atkin's plan (I'm currently doing a lower carb version of Body For Life). However, I have witnessed many people be very successful both in their weight losses and IMPROVE their cholestrol, HDL and triglycerides while following it. Many people are even able to get off their cholesterol, heart meds and insulin injections from being so successful following DANDR. Also, if you have read the book in full, or even visited the website, I'm sure you know that Dr. Atkins does not suggest to "leave fruit(s) and vegetables behind". Not even in the induction phase of the eating plan is this suggested. As one approches maintenance levels more and more fruits and veggies are added to the diet, even those higher up on the glycemic index than the green leafy veggies, broccolli, and berries that are reccomended for Induction.

Quote:
The AHA's recommendations are sound. Eat fruit in abundance and fat in moderation and weight and health will take care of themeselves. Oh ya folks - excercise plays a part in this too. I know a lot of us hate it, including me, but it's totally necessary to sweat it up frequently. The modern office job is pure evil. We work for the man getting nowhere fast while we can actually feel the fat forming on our asess. Thank God my work has a gym, which Iuse religiously every lunch hour for weight training. By the way, did you know that weight training counts as cardio and each pound of muscle burns twice as much as each pound of fat? Get those weights out!


"The AHA's recommendations are sound" -Says who? You? The AHA? LOL If they are so sound, and if the ADA and AHA are the end all be all of dietary information, then why 1) are Americans more Obese than ever in the history of our nation since having implemented the Food Pyramid? (I assume you have read the NY Times article, at the very least ... if not, click here )

Quote:
Eat fruit in abundance and fat in moderation and weight and health will take care of themeselves.

I am living proof that this is not the case. There are many others here that will agree. I have always eaten well. I was vegetarian for 3 years even. And yet, although I was on the swim team, tennis team, AND soccer teams in high school, and ate better "balanced" diets than any of my friends, I was always a size 14. For people without weight problems, with properly functioning metabolisms, I will agree with you, such a diet will probably work for them. However, as I'm sure you've seen, most of us here have seen, heard, tried, and done it all - with no success. From Weight Watchers, to Jenny Craig, to Slim Fast, to other more extreme measures... it has been tried, and failed by most of us. Yet somehow this works. Pretty hard to dispute that, IMHO.

"Oh ya folks - excercise plays a part in this too.... By the way, did you know that weight training counts as cardio and each pound of muscle burns twice as much as each pound of fat? Get those weights out!" LOL!!!!!!!!! I really have to laugh at this one! Have you actually browsed around this forum at all? You'll notice that the VAST MAJORITY of us work out regularly. Feel free to peek into my gym log any time (link will be posted at the bottom of this post), or Natrushka's... or any of the Gym Logs found in the Exercise Forums section.

Also, if you want hard core studies to verify LC living, as a way of life, not just a "quick fix", doreen T has posted MANY links throughout this forum to MANY articles in favor of Low-Carbing, as well as Natrushka , and our own TrainerDan . Rather than posting the links to the studies, I thought you might get a kick out of reading through a recent thread initated by "Infuriator": Click Here

I'm sure you'll find it both amusing and enlightening.

Have a great day! Good luck with your Hockey!



Kate

Last edited by mnokat : Thu, Dec-05-02 at 14:34.
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  #27   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 14:47
Toner Toner is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 16
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 180/177/168
BF:
Progress: 25%
Default Re: I wasn't going to do it...

Greetings Kate, and thanks for the rant. Let's get at it.



"The AHA's recommendations are sound" -Says who? You? The AHA? LOL If they are so sound, and if the ADA and AHA are the end all be all of dietary information, then why 1) are Americans more Obese than ever in the history of our nation since having implemented the Food Pyramid? (I assume you have read the NY Times article, at the very least ... if not, click here )

I think the anser to why Americans are obese is pretty simple. It's called McDonalds. It's called KFC. It's called Popeye's. It's called Haagen Dazs, Chocolate Brownie Overload, Pizza, Mr. Big, Bacon Double Cheese Burgers and French Fries. It's also called lazy. Were you really trying to imply that Americans got fat from fruit? I am laughing so hard right now I think I'm going to faint.

Your debating skills are evident, though obviously rusted through the years of inactivity you speak of.

Merry Christmas!

P
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  #28   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 14:52
Toner Toner is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 16
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 180/177/168
BF:
Progress: 25%
Default

In reading your post again Kate, I noticed another glaring example of why people turn to Atkins. It's called speed. The question for overweight people becomes, 'why do something that's healthy when it takes longer and more discipline to accomplish when you can believe a little hype and do something totally unhealthy and get quick results?' This is the juggernaut behind Atkin's success. It's an easy way to do it. And I'm the first to boast about the excellent results from Atkins diet. But I'm the last to get the wool pulled over my eyes about healthy eating high fat is.
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  #29   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 15:06
mnokat's Avatar
mnokat mnokat is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 666
 
Plan: VLC
Stats: 248/188.8/148 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 59%
Location: MA, USA
Talking Hi again!

I do agree with you. Fast foods and our busy lifestyles combined are a definite problem in this country. However, America is not the only country where obesity is increasinly becoming epidemic. It has spread through Europe and is even reaching the historically thin Far East. Also, most of the people taking part in this forum will be happy to tell you that while being overweight, they very rarely, if ever, ate at MickeyD's, KFC, or Popeye's. Ice cream and Pizza... well those are probably more of a contributing factor for most of us... but then again, what are their number one ingredients? Refined Carbs - in the forms of sugar, and white flour, respectively.

(btw, what's a Mr. Big? I don't think we have those around here... I assume it's a fast food joint?)

Quote:
Were you really trying to imply that Americans got fat from fruit?


No, actually, I'm more concerned with the "low-fat" products the food industry has bombarded us with. Low fat generally equals low carb. For a lot of us that is a bad thing for a few reasons. 1) low fat also means low satiety. Therefore Americans are eating MORE of them and ingesting higher calories, and much higher carbs. 2) Ingesting carbs, especially those of the "refined" variety, or high on the glycemic index, induces cravings in most of us, cycling us back to that loop where we keep eating because we are even more hungry!

Good old fats go a long way IMHO. It fills you up, gets your calories up there (for those of us that have a hard time meeting minimum calorie requirements, which, believe it or not, is many overweight/obese people), and keeps your body from entering the "starvation mode". When you eat fats your body says "okay, I have some fat here, I don't have to store up any more" and will burn the fat you've ingested, rather than saving it as a reserve.

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  #30   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 15:23
Toner Toner is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 16
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 180/177/168
BF:
Progress: 25%
Default

Interesting.....but why is it then that China,for example, has the least amount of obesity in the world and their diet is based on carbohydrates? And on the show Survivor....when all they eat is rice for a month and a half, why do they lose weight?

For me the problem seems quite clear. High fat and high refined carbs together are the problem. Low fat and low refined carb is the solution. Yes, it takes longer to lose weight this way but it is healthier in the long run.

People believe what they want to believe. Dr. Atkins has capitalized on this concept, by telling you that you can lose weight rapidly while still remaining healthy. The inevitable truth however, is that there are no shortcuts in life that don't stiff you one way or another in the long run. Maybe it's a cliche, but it's one I subscribe to due to the cyclical nature of ourselves and our planet. What comes around goes around.

I believe that a carbohydrate based diet, with low fat, will result in a lean physique as long as there is some activity involved in the person's life.

By the way, has anyone attempted switching from Atkins to a low fat diet? What were the results?
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