Hi Everybody

Can anyone offer any advice on the following? My friend Helen started Atkins a couple of weeks ago and managed one week on the induction programme. She felt better, belt as if she had lost weight, but didn't register anything at the scales . She gave up after a week and went back on Weight Watchers as she said she was missing her fruit and veg too much

She told me at the weekend that she plans to follow Atkins for a week and then do a week on W W and keep alternating them . Does anyone have any ideas exactly what this will do to her metabolsim

She doesn't seem to be taking any notice of me when I tell her that I don't think it will do her any good.

Hmmmm... that is interesting! I'd like to have one of the Admins or Moderators answer this one!!

My guess (let's see if I'm even close!) would be that the time she spends on Atkins will be negated by the time spent on WW... in other words, she's wasting her time low-carbing if she's not going to stick with it.

Eventually, if she were to continue to do this long term, is that her metabolism will stay relatively heatlhy (or at the same state it's in now) since she'd be getting her calories in while LCing (hopefully!). The long-term result I would guess is that she will have a very slow weight loss, her energy levels won't be good (because of the constant metabolic pathway switching) she'll feel like cr*p most of the time (because of the blood glucose swings), and her biomarkers (BP, cholesterol, etc.) will be elevated.

Now.....to go find the REAL experts!

What fruits and veggies is Helen missing out on?

If she can make it through the first two weeks, she can start adding back in a lot of fruits and veggies and not run the risk of screwing up her metobolism for life.

Teri, you are right on when you say the week spent on Atkin's would be negated by the week on WW. Why bother going between the two? They are two completely different diets with different impacts on your metobolism and blood chemistry. I would hate to see her bloodwork after trying this.

I loved Bill's (Wbahn) viewpoint when it comes to Low Carbing....and if I may be so bold to use his quote:

Ever see the movie, "The Karate Kid"? It's sorta like that.

Either you do LC yes or you do LC no. You do LC "guess so" and squish - just like grape

I wish your friend Helen nothing but success.

Oh, I'm thinking new signature here!! Love it!!

hi there Paulie,

I'll add to what the others have said.

Alternating a low-carb ketogenic diet such as Atkins with a low-calorie high-carb plan such as Weight Watchers could do some harm to the metabolism. Studies show that metabolic slow-down and suppression of thyroid function, esp. conversion of T4 to active T3 happens in less than one week while following a 1000 calorie diet, whether it's low or high carbs. Except the high-carb program had even more slowing of the metabolic rate, and less weight lost than when following a low-calories but low-carb regimen. I posted this to another member recently; you can read about it here.

It can take some people more than a week to get into active lipolysis (ketosis), especially if the previous diet was high carbs. The muscles and liver need to use up all stores of glycogen before insulin levels will go down. Putting high-carbs from fruits, grains and starches into the body every other week for a whole week, will basically inhibit the metabolic benefits of a low-carb diet. Some athletes do utilize a planned carb-up for 48 hrs every week alternating with ketogenic low-carbs .. in order to build up muscle glycogen stores .. However, they do this in combination with a rigorous exercise regimen of combined cardio and weight-training, in order to build muscle and burn fat. You can read more about this in our CKD forum (CKD = cyclical ketogenic diet).

Atkins is not the only low-carb diet. If it's just an issue that your friend wishes to have some fruits and greater variety of vegetables, there are other programs that may be a perfect fit for her, without having to flip-flop back and forth. Plans such as Protein Power Lifeplan or Schwarzbein Principle may be more do-able for her. Click on "Which low-carb plan is right for me?' from the Quick Links column to the right. You'll find reviews of several low-carb plans, with menus. Perhaps there's a good fit for your friend.

Doreen

To be honest, I don't know how badly she'll screw up her metabolism. There seems to be something about "shaking up your metabolism" from time to time and other approaches (BFL, CAD, CKD) seem to incorporate the concept formally. So maybe this approach might work - though I rather doubt it. Of course, these other approaches don't invoke stringent calorie restriction during the non-LC phases and that's a significant difference. I think that Doreen's information above pretty well indicates that it will not work well at all and might well be harmful to some degree or other.

My biggest concern is that if she is unable to follow a plan for even two weeks, then she has bigger problems and larger hurdles to deal with and plan switching isn't going to address them. We as a society (Americans in particular but I think a lot of other industrialized and urbanized societies fall into this category as well) tend to want everything right now and in large quantity. For many of us it's a significant part of why we are overweight in the first place and it is also a significant part in why we have so much trouble controlling our weight. We want instantaneous gratification, we can't go a week without the foods we love, we want to see miraculous weight loss within a week, we are unwilling to accept that it might (and should) take a long time to lose any significant weight properly. Unless we can break out of that mental mindset and adopt (and become comfortable with) a long term approach we are generally setting ourselves up for failure.

Just my $0.02.

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your comments. I'll try to talk some sense into her tomorrow when I see her at work. One of her other excuses is that she doesn't like fish so hasn't got a great variety of foods to choose from . Sometimes I just wonder if we're on the same page

Bill is right though, we do tend to want the weight to disappear overnight and not have to work at it and lose it safely.

Hmm....I don't like fish, either, but that still leaves beef, pork and chicken, eggs and cheese. Still lots of variety. Sounds to me like she's just trying to justify failing in advance. Ever notice how when a person really wants something, they usually find a way to obtain it? Same thing goes for when we really don't want to do something...people will sometimes do mental backflips to come up with a reason not to do it (like, "I can't follow a low carb diet because I don't like fish.").

Some people, unfortunately, seem to have a failure mindset. They will tell you that they can't do it even as they are successfully doing it. I've seen it in varying degrees in quite a few people and, for some, it appears to be linked to an absolutely horrid self-esteem. For whatever reason they have become convinced that they aren't capable of doing anything. Most of the time it turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy which just lowers their self-esteem further. Very sad thing to witness. Don't know if that applies here or not.

Hi Lisa & Bill (Wbahn)

Thanks for your comments. I'm wondering if that after years of being conditined to eat a low fat diet, she feels guilty about eating the red meat, eggs etc. She doesn;t want to put any weight on so is trying damage limitation . To be honest looking at her I really can't say that she needs to lose any weight. She would probably be better doing some toning up at the gym - but that's another story

Hi again, Paulie!

If your friend doesn't have a great deal of weight to lose (and sometimes it's hard to tell just looking at someone), maybe she'd be more comfortable with a plan like The Schwarzbein Principle or Protein Power Life Plan. They are less severe than the induction phases of Atkins with more variety. You could even print off a copy of the plan comparison here on the board and show it to her. I explained to a co-worker that Atkins isn't the only low carb plan out there when they commented that Atkins induction was just too severe and suggested several others. They did the leg work and checked out the other plans and decided that Schwarzbein was just the ticket and have been very successful and happy with that WOE. Of course, the decision on what plan to follow will have to be hers, but it can't hurt to suggest unless she's totally closed to the idea.

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for the advice, I'll do that. To be honest, I didn't realise there were as many LC programmes around until I found this site . It has been a real eye-opener and it is great to get everyone's input and tips. I was in a bookshop yesterday and saw a lot of LC books. I don't remember seeing Schwartzbein, but I'll check it out.

Thanks again.

There was an awesome post on the atkinsfriend board about loosing that last 10 lbs. Basically she said that if all you have to loose is 10 lbs what you need is to tone up not loose more weight. That loosing weight will only make you a smaller version of your former fat self, but won't change your body shape.

The poster (who did Body for Life) included some VERY convincing pictures.

I dug up the post for you

http://www.pfangserver.com/bbs/show...&threadid=17996

It hasn't quite gotten me to get off my butt yet, but made me realize that I will have to sooner or later.

Good food for thought.

Hi Angeline ,

I have checked out that link, it makes very interesting reading. I am going to try to get back to the gym this week. I haven't been for months .

My friend has lost 4 lbs since she started Atkins last Sunday. As she has lost this time, she has decided to stay on it another week and see how she goes . If she loses a bit more she will start and introduce some of the things she is missing. I suppose it is a step up from going back on the W W plan alternate weeks. We'll see how she gets on.

Thanks again for the link.

Your friend is walking into a trap. She is still focusing on the immediate, short term results and those are highly confusing. Many, many people actually gain some weight back during their second week on Atkins as the body readjusts its water balance. They are still losing fat, but retaining more water weight. So if she doesn't lose anything (or gains a pound or two) during the second week what is she going to do? Bounce back to WW?

The body's metabolic controls work over the course of weeks and months. Some things can change over the period of one week but these are usually not good things - like the body shifting into starvation mode.

Your friend really needs to commit for the long haul - or at least a longer term. She needs to commit to stickiing to a SINGLE program for a MINIMUM of six weeks. Just six weeks. If she keeps making decisions week-by-week she will keep on making bad decisions based on bad data.