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  #16   ^
Old Thu, Feb-08-24, 03:45
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
This helps explain why I flunked the processing classification quiz at the WSJ link.

She's definitely right that when it comes to UPF, we may "know it when we see it", but the classifications NOVA is coming up with defy the very meaning of ULTRA processing.


Going back to the chickpeas in the WSJ quiz - those are dried chickpeas. You can't eat them like that unless you enjoy having broken teeth. Apparently if you buy them canned (chickpeas, water, salt), then they're processed. If you take home a bag of dried chickpeas, soak them in water and cook them for hours in water with salt - somehow that's still considered to be an unprocessed food, even though it's the exact same ingredients as the canned chickpeas.

If hamburgers are marked guilty of being ultra-processed simply by association with UPFs - then eating a green salad at an Italian restaurant with Tiramisu for dessert makes the green salad ultra processed by association.


Cooking is processing. And that's confusing. I assume a cat walked on my keyboard above, but I think I was trying to point out the artificial ingredients are the most dangerous, no? Those indecipherable word clumps on the label is what I'm talking about.

It's that the danger, as much as the UPF carbs that raise blood sugar?
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  #17   ^
Old Thu, Feb-08-24, 03:59
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Ah, I get it. It's the Tufts food compass all over again.
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  #18   ^
Old Thu, Feb-08-24, 10:43
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Calianna Calianna is online now
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I couldn't recall hearing of the Tufts food compass before, but seeing the chart on google, brought back vague memories of the utterly ridiculous classifications for complete junk food compared to unadulterated single ingredient food.


******


The description of what makes a food UPF is far too vague and as pointed out in the article includes foods that have been part of the human diet for far longer than we've had UPF related addiction and obesity, such as sausages and pickled foods.



Let's say you want to eat grapefruit sections: Some processing is necessary, because the sections need to be removed from the rind.

Apparently if you buy grapefruit fresh, and remove the sections from the rind yourself, then they're considered to be unprocessed, even though you had to physically process that grapefruit yourself in order to eat it.

If you buy a container of grapefruit sections from the store that have been processed and packaged in plastic containers at the store, that makes them processed. (although that's in synthetic packaging, so verging on UPF)

And the same grapefruit sections are even worse if you buy a container of nationally branded and grapefruit sections from the refrigerated aisle - those are sectioned at a factory using industrial processes, and packaged using industrial processes in water or unsweetened juice in a plastic container - that's ULTRA processed, because even though it has gone through much of the same processing as when you sectioned that grapefruit yourself, and the same processing as when the store sectioned the grapefruit and packaged it for sale, the nationally branded grapefruit sections in juice were processed at a factory, uses synthetic packaging, has a brand name on it, and has some ingredients to give it a longer shelf life.

And yet I have yet to hear of anyone saying that they're absolutely addicted to those plastic tubs of Del Monte grapefruit sections. The only difference is that they're packaged with juices, a couple of acids and one preservative - certainly processed But despite the fact that we're not talking about Froot Loops and Chips Ahoy, they're branded as UPF foods.
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  #19   ^
Old Thu, Feb-08-24, 11:41
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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I dont follow the " processed" and "ultra processed" wording. Instead, i think about how this food item came to be.

Cocoa. A long complicated process of fermentation, drying and grinding.

Meats. Was it butchered and cut into manageable cuts? No added breading, no chemicals added. Canned meats are questionable unless I did the canning.

Veggies. Does it look like it just parted ways with the iriginal plant?

Same with fruit. Whole or cut up but no added sugar, not dried unless I dried it. Not canned as sugar is always added.

Grains. This is a tough zone. We lack the skills to use whole grains. And the genetics are a bit foreign for modern commercial varieties. Fine grinds while the norm today, was a rare treat before modern processing methods.

Nuts and seeds. Nuts cracked opened, roasted and salted. Thats good enough. One nut must be roasted because its poisonous otherwise. Anyone know which one? ?? Hint. Its a common "nut".

Dairy. No more whey powder here. Real cheeses. Few ingredients. Beware of ricotta: it can be filled with starches snd guar gum. Beware cream cheeses. Philly is the best. Though at one time the formulation was altered and carb level higher. Original recipe restored.

Herbs and spices. Most are dried and ground. The rich flavor of fresh picked is remarkable. Black pepper. Fresh ground is richer and stronger flavored.

Boxed ot packaged " food" is carefully scrutinized. My MIL complained that despite good eyesight, the fine print is annoying. In my experience,if I assume the content is the same as previous purchase, Im often disappointed when checking at home. Dinged too many times.

Knowing how foods are processed from field to table is a worthwhile education.

I've taught my boys throwing a steak in a hot skillet and adding chopped peppers and onion is fast and easy.

Knowing basic cooking skills makes it fast and easy. Teach cooking skills to our children and grandchildren.

Home Ec is gone from the schools here. But honestly,my mother had taught me everything and Home Ec was BORING. Teach someone to cook.
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  #20   ^
Old Thu, Feb-08-24, 15:45
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Calianna Calianna is online now
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Arielle - in answer to your question:

Cashews are the nut that is poisonous before being roasted. (Yes, I already knew this - I'm OLD, and have a lot of random facts wandering around in my brain) Even cashews sold as "raw" have been roasted once. The ones sold as "roasted" have been roasted twice.



About home Ec - it was completely useless when I was a kid - and I'm 70, so that was a very long time ago.

Literally the only thing I learned from the cooking unit in Home Ec was that you heat water in a tea kettle, and you needed the little green teapot (yes, it was green) to steep the tea.

I already knew how to sew - had made Barbie doll clothes for a few years, then began sewing my own dresses the summer before 7th grade. Home ec that year had us making a "torn apron" from gingham. It was called a torn apron because we weren't allowed to cut the fabric, just tear strips to sew... and the ties weren't even sewn into place, just threaded through a channel at the waist of the half apron. Incredibly stupid project.


Home Ec was even worse when my kids were in school (the one daughter was taught how to set a table "properly" for the cooking unit), so I'm sure it's even more useless now.
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  #21   ^
Old Fri, Feb-09-24, 07:55
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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It's about confusing people. It's not about informing them. Especially since they have been told all their lives what food is, and we contradict that.

Who often turn away in horror. They LIKE the food pyramid. And to me, grains are the ultimate processed food. And we all remember the Bread Addicts in our lives. "Oh, I can't give up bread."

They are inedible in their native state, and grinding them releases a lot of anti-nutrients. White flour has the least toxins (rice is the least toxic grain) and has vitamins put back in it because without that, it's simply paper mache glue.

That is its power. It can be molded into anything and blended with sugar. But the taste and convenience isn't worth it. And there are better ways to grow the economy than letting ten companies takes over and flood the market with their fake food.

Turning the pyramid upside down was good for me.
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  #22   ^
Old Fri, Feb-09-24, 07:58
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And they are wrong. The book, Ultra-processed People, is very clear and did not confuse me. I also think they ignore clear facts. Pickling is high in vinegar and sodium, but on low carb these are clearly beneficial ingredients.

And the whole frenzy about salt was WRONG and why are they pushing the DASH diet?
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  #23   ^
Old Fri, Feb-09-24, 09:34
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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"Turning the pyramid upside down was good for me."

Yes!!!!!

I was into DANDR when my children came along. I totally dissed the pyramid AND the plate. My kids drank water not milk. Unfortunately, they lacked vitD3 as I didn't understand iits importance. Cheese doesn't have added D3. AND pediatrician never tested blood levels, even though he knew my boys didnt drink milk. All good now, vit D3 pills.

And my boys can cook.

"Pickling is high in vinegar and sodium, but on low carb these are clearly beneficial ingredients."

I learned how to make vinegar!! SUPER EASY!! Much much cheaper than Braggs ,which is super pricey now. I keep a bottle as a starter solution.

Two Quart container. I like a mason jar. Any canning jar really. With a lid and ring. I did buy the plastic covers, easier for maling vinegar. Keep ring loose to let gasses push up lid to release excess gases.

Half fill with sliced apples. Add 1/3 cup sugar. Add 2/4 cup Braggs. Fill with nonchlorinated water,leaving an inch space at top.

Put on lid. Tighten Lid. Shake hard to stir up sugar. Loosen screw top.

I keep in dark cupboard. Tighten lid, shake, loosen lid. Repeat over a few days. Then shake every couple days. Takes a few weeks.

Smells great.
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  #24   ^
Old Fri, Feb-16-24, 09:36
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Calianna Calianna is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
It's about confusing people. It's not about informing them. Especially since they have been told all their lives what food is, and we contradict that.

Who often turn away in horror. They LIKE the food pyramid. And to me, grains are the ultimate processed food. And we all remember the Bread Addicts in our lives. "Oh, I can't give up bread."

They are inedible in their native state, and grinding them releases a lot of anti-nutrients. White flour has the least toxins (rice is the least toxic grain) and has vitamins put back in it because without that, it's simply paper mache glue.

That is its power. It can be molded into anything and blended with sugar. But the taste and convenience isn't worth it. And there are better ways to grow the economy than letting ten companies takes over and flood the market with their fake food.

Turning the pyramid upside down was good for me.


I think it's also a guilt thing, and what you said about grains being the ultimate processed food is part of it.

If you buy a bag of whole grain flour at the store, is that considered to be ultra processed? Or merely processed? Even if that flour is only considered to be minimally processed, buying a brand name loaf of bread in a plastic bag with these ingredients on the list (whole wheat flour, water, yeast, eggs, butter, salt, honey) is apparently a processed food - I'd say ultra processed based on the name brand, plastic bag, and multiple industrial processes involved in it's production.

But somehow that's completely different from buying a paper bag of whole wheat flour, and adding yeast from a jar, water from your faucet, eggs, butter, and salt. Then kneading it, letting it rise, forming it into a loaf and baking it in your own oven, then after the bread has cooled, storing it in plastic bags - somehow that's not an ultra processed food.

The difference is that you don't feel guilty for buying an ultra-processed loaf of bread - you can proudly say that you did not fall prey to the ultra-processed siren of factory produced bread!

Instead, you made your own loaf of bread from scratch, and it's so much healthier that way.

But the reality is that it's not one bit better for you.

In fact perhaps it's even more tempting to overeat that homemade bread, especially hot out of the oven.

I'm still wearing the evidence of 20-some foolish years of convincing myself that homemade baked goods were soooo much better for you than store-bought, even though I was making the same baked goods as I could buy in the store.

(But at least I didn't feel guilty for just buying them from the store!)

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  #25   ^
Old Tue, Feb-27-24, 20:14
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Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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I read the ingredients. Too many non-food names means UPF to me. But I'm not sure that what the publishers mean.

I eat cocoa, ground beef, cheese, tea, coffee, cream, low-carb millet & flax flatbreads, 86% chocolate, and other processed foods.

Sometimes I snack on something very processed, but I go by the all things in moderation rule.

I put stevia in my coffee/tea, sometimes sucralose too. Depends.

My DW makes Duncan Hines Keto Brownies, and when I'm on a gig and need a boost, I'll eat a Quest or some kind of keto bar.

I'm 77, on zero medications and I don't get sick every year like most people (a cold every 15 years or so, and that's it).

Read the labels, if there are too many non-food items in there, eat them sparingly or not at all. That's my non-professional advice. YMMV
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  #26   ^
Old Thu, Feb-29-24, 04:31
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
Instead, you made your own loaf of bread from scratch, and it's so much healthier that way.

But the reality is that it's not one bit better for you.


While true, I think the difference has shifted, to where the actual UPF laden product is now MUCH worse for you.

The Usual Suspects are trying to confuse people. The ULTRA is ultra-processed, to the point it loses the "matrix" of food. Yes, we process our food ALL the time, since we discovered how to use fire. Or let a jar of mashed fruit turn to party time

But we don't disturb the matrix. When I make smoothies with Naked Whey, it's a reconstituting process. I can turn it back into whey, which the body recognizes as food.

I'm sure it's different with soy isolate. THAT is the serious danger point, where it deranges the brain appetite center and people start putting on excess fat. It IS energy toxicity, because without the lure of what's been done to it, we would never eat this stuff.
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  #27   ^
Old Thu, Feb-29-24, 09:45
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Calianna Calianna is online now
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According to the list Nina Teicholz provided of characteristics that supposedly describe what makes a food a UPF the factory produced bread containing the exact same ingredients as homemade is all it takes to make it UPF.

And I think that was one of her main points - there are too many things on that list which only describe manufacturing processes which have nothing at all to do with the nutritional value of a food that has the exact same ingredients as a home made food.

By the same token, as explained (I can't seem to get back into the article to see if it was her or if I read it somewhere else), if you make something like cookies or cake at home from ingredients that are not healthy, that doesn't make it any better than a UPF - but if you base it on that crazy list, somehow it's not a UPF because you made it at home - which gives home bakers a free pass to eat as much homemade cake and cookies as they want.

How about buying frozen cooked hamburgers? I used to be able to buy those. Just ground beef, cooked. But they were cooked in a factory, frozen, and sold in a plastic bag, so that you could get one out to heat and eat. That would make them a UPF food, despite the fact that they were no different from a burger that you'd cooked at home.

It's the whole NOVA description of what makes something UPF that's crazy - it's just going to confuse people about food (even more than they are already confused about what's healthy and what's not), making them think that no matter what's in something you make at home, it's fine if you used individual ingredients and made it yourself, but if you bought something that contains perfectly good and natural ingredients but was produced in a factory and packaged for retail sale, somehow that makes it... different, in a bad way.
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  #28   ^
Old Fri, Mar-01-24, 04:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
And I think that was one of her main points - there are too many things on that list which only describe manufacturing processes which have nothing at all to do with the nutritional value of a food that has the exact same ingredients as a home made food.... it's fine if you used individual ingredients and made it yourself, but if you bought something that contains perfectly good and natural ingredients but was produced in a factory and packaged for retail sale, somehow that makes it... different, in a bad way.


I am likewise puzzled and I think Nina is right to call out this blurring of the issue. They are putting filters on the bread and telling us to light up!
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  #29   ^
Old Fri, Mar-01-24, 09:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
They are putting filters on the bread and telling us to light up!
Great visual, thanks! You just made my day
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  #30   ^
Old Fri, Mar-01-24, 19:44
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Calianna Calianna is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
I am likewise puzzled and I think Nina is right to call out this blurring of the issue. They are putting filters on the bread and telling us to light up!


That is certainly what it sounds like.

But how about this possibility -

If they tell people it's ok to have cookies, and cake, and bread that you made at home from the same "good wholesome ingredients" that the manufacturers use, but if they're made in a factory they're bad for you - how many people actually have the time and energy to make those at home?

The working mom who needs to get the kids to soccer practice and clarinet lessons 5 days a week after work certainly isn't going to have the energy or time to bake a batch of cookies from scratch after she gets home from working all day and chauffeuring the kids around all evening.

She MIGHT actually have the time and energy to do that on the weekend - after she does the shopping for all those ingredients she needs to make a batch of cookies.

If she takes the NOVA description of UPFs to heart, she'll only eat and give her kids homemade cookies - not the 6 packages of factory made cookies she could have just thrown in her cart while she was in the store.

That's probably a pretty far-fetched scenario, but there are some who would truly believe that making those cookies from scratch from "good wholesome ingredients" will make them perfectly ok. And if they only get cookies once a week, well then they've actually reduced their consumption of UPF's.
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