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  #16   ^
Old Sat, Jan-06-24, 13:47
NHSB NHSB is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 948
 
Plan: IF+HP+Cycling+Stillman
Stats: 148/147/130 Female 5’6”
BF:29%/27%/20%-25%
Progress: 6%
Location: New England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Umm, that protein does seem low to me now. Maybe because you don’t need to lose much fat? Marty's starting Macro formula is lower in protein too, I just keep on with what works for me.

I could not sign up for Hava as it required a Google account..or something like that? I tried to fill out their comment form which had 100s of questions ( I exaggerate for effect like Naiman now) think I finished it, but yet to hear back. Likely messed that up too. Foiled by technology.


I don’t have a Google account. It was confusing to sign up, but I just ignored the Google account field and it did work for me. That process did ask a ton of questions about me…I don’t know what they did with the responses!

The iOS app has rudimentary food logging with what appears to be a crowd-sourced database (with over 100 chicken breast options, none of which agree on nutrients or satiety score). It feels like myfitnesspal in the crowd-sourcing days but without the ease-of-use features. It also has a chatbot, which might be pretty well-trained on nutrition (the chatbot had a sensible understanding of chicken breast nutrients which did not match any of the data in the food database). I asked the chatbot why my protein level was so much lower than the P:E Diet recommendations, and it told me that 98g is the typical recommendation for an average height male. If I wanted to follow a specific diet, I should work with a dietician or nutritionist to determine appropriate macros. There does not appear to be any way to adjust anything in the app (which knows I am female, along with my height and weight and goals). The chatbot does not appear to know anything about the app itself. It provides generic suggestions when you ask for help, then responds “What a pickle you are in!” when its generic suggestions don’t apply. Not my sense of humor, but that could just be from the large language model they use (I would have preferred a straightforward “Sorry, I am designed to provide nutritional expertise, not application support.”).

I like Andreas. I have supported DietDoctor for many years. I hope this shapes into something useful for someone. For now, based on what I can figure out, you aren’t missing anything!

I had noticed that Marty doesn’t think we should increase protein…rather that protein % should go up by reducing everything else? I guess I don’t get the notion that we should be more satisfied by just eating less!

I am hopeful others will jump in with some secret to making hava more useful. In the meantime, I am providing feedback to the app.
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  #17   ^
Old Mon, Jan-08-24, 09:17
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Oh Darn, an invite to hear Dr Naiman Live … in Stockholm..in January.
Maybe next year
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  #18   ^
Old Fri, Jan-12-24, 06:13
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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So HAVA will be LiveStreaming this event. I’ll watch from my toasty living room with the fire on.
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  #19   ^
Old Mon, Jan-15-24, 12:26
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Good presentation. The big announcement other than the satiety concepts we already know, is Photo Tracking, the use of AI with a phone photo of a plate of food, so that all ingredients in the right amounts are entered into the app for you. Currently I can track a photo, but then need to enter the whole recipe into Cronometer and sync it with Nutrient Optimiser. This is amazing improvement.

For an example, Dr Eenfeldt used a plate of Mexican carnitas, then AI identified the recipes and amounts from the web, to create a list of all ingredients, calculate the nutrients, calories, etc and give it a satiety score. It can "see" a cup of rice under the mixed beef and veg, how much corn or chilis, and add everything. Or take a photo of a restaurant meal, it finds the recipes, amounts and automatically tracks all the food for you.

Clip about it: https://www.youtube.com/live/YT9FEy...LSrcwhMbd_XrGNb

Last edited by JEY100 : Mon, Jan-15-24 at 17:06.
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  #20   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-24, 03:19
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,774
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Or take a photo of a restaurant meal, it finds the recipes, amounts and automatically tracks all the food for you.


That is wild! Let people understand their food. I see people on TikTok showing "what I eat healthy" and it's NOT.
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  #21   ^
Old Thu, Jan-18-24, 07:47
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Until the Photo Tracking is live, Marty Kendall is posting the Satiety Scores for his recipes compared to HAVA's. [On Twitter, I know, I Know it is a horrid place]
Today the LOWEST satietyrecipe in the ON database. BulletProof Coffee!
Quote:
At the other extreme, Bulletproof Coffee gets a ~JoinHava #satiety score of 12. It also happens to have THE lowest diet quality score in our recipe database. See explanation and nutrients at: https://optimisingnutrition.com/bulletproof-coffee/


Dr Naiman's comment: "Satiety Per Calorie — the final dietary arbiter of truth — shall rise, like a phoenix, from the ashes of keto….Just as the prophecy foretold."

Kathy, aka KeyTones here, will also be adding her yummy recipes to the HAVA satiety scores, it’s not all meat and veg.
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  #22   ^
Old Thu, Jan-18-24, 09:31
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,352
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Dr Naiman's comment: "Satiety Per Calorie — the final dietary arbiter of truth — shall rise, like a phoenix, from the ashes of keto….Just as the prophecy foretold."


I hope Dr Naiman says this with a smile on his face and his tongue in his cheek. Anyone who believes that they have found the holy grail of dieting, the final absoute truth, is swimming in arrogance and is bound to be pushed off his pedestal eventually when the next god of healthy eating ascends the mountain.

Seeking after the truth is commendable. Believing that you have found it for all times, all places and all people is hubris.
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, Jan-18-24, 10:58
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Definitely tongue in cheek. He has said how wrong he was being a vegetarian for the first 25 years, then Atkins, Paleo, then Keto for a hot minute, until he decided to find their one unifying theory, and so far Protein:Energy is holding up. But should something better come along, he will promote it. It is so refreshing to hear a doctor say he was wrong multiple times in an interview, and willing to change.
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  #24   ^
Old Sat, Jan-20-24, 04:40
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Example of a complete Meal with an 81 HAVA satiety score:
Green Hulk Omelette.
I love the green Hulk Smoothie plus berries and forgot this version. Posted on X yesterday so I made the omelet with two added eggs for more nutrition, added the reminder of a bag of grilled chicken breast ( maybe was 6 oz.). I ate around 10 am and totally satiated for the day. Could not eat the salmon I had ready for dinner, had a yogurt with PP instead.
https://optimisingnutrition.com/gre...tte/#more-14700
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  #25   ^
Old Mon, Feb-12-24, 04:08
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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The AI Photo Tracking is getting rave reviews. Take a photo of a pan of stir-fry, it picks out the ingredients, and even estimates the amount of oil used in the pan. You can adjust any amounts if needed and there are some meals with high satiety scores (in the 60s) that are spot on. KeyTones/Kathy has posted some great meals on Twitter these past few weeks, some at restaurants, with their Satiety Scores.

Dr Eenfeldt and Dr Naiman posted today:

Quote:
Struggling to lose weight on low carb or keto?

Here's your regular reminder that carbs, while important, are not everything.

Some low-carb foods promote overeating: for example, nuts and dairy like butter and heavy cream. Avocado, regular cheese, and processed meats are not great either.

Multiple factors impact this: protein, energy density, fiber and hedonic factors etc. We're making it simple by combining all these factors into one satiety score. Aim for a balanced satiety score of 50 or slightly higher on average. Get your average to the low 60s and it's arguably hard to fail.

Here's your cheat code: Fat free Greek yogurt is delicious and has a satiety score of 89. Combine it with berries, chopped fruit, or anything you like.
For satiety scoring, try our app for free for a week, no commitment: hava.co Check the satiety score of any food for free: hava.co/science


Beautiful, slick infographics of high satiety foods! DietDoctor nails it. https://www.hava.co/science

My tip of the day. A 32 oz NF yogurt container froze solid because it was placed near the cold compressor outlet in the fridge. Appeared to have spoiled, little lumps of ice, swimming in whey. An Immersion Blender saved the day! Hard going but the yogurt is now super thick and satiating again. With added frozen mixed berries, it is like ice cream!

Low carb is a great place to start, but there is so much more to eating a nutrient dense diet to finally reach an ideal body weight.

"If you’re already low carb, you need to address the 70-80% of your body’s insulin production that is simply related to how much fat you’re carrying. Simply minimising carbs, while an important step, is missing the main game!"

Last edited by JEY100 : Mon, Feb-12-24 at 07:53.
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  #26   ^
Old Tue, Feb-20-24, 05:46
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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The new Vegetable scoring introduction. [Fruit is in my journal today]
Dr. Eenfeldt writes on Twitter:

Quote:
Are vegetables effective for weight loss and metabolic health? Most people would say YES... except some hard-core carnivores and keto people, who would say you should limit them as much as possible.

Who is correct? Let's see the result of our ~JoinHava satiety scoring, where we combine protein percent, energy density, fiber, and hedonic factors into one scale, 0-100.

The result is clear. Almost all vegetables get balanced (around 50) or high (60+) scores. A few, like lettuce and asparagus, get all the way up to 100. More starchy root vegetables like potatoes and corn get scores in the low to mid-40s. Note that this still makes it possible to combine them with other highly nutritious foods for a balanced or high overall score.

However, add a lot of butter and sour cream to a baked potato, and the overall score can plummet into the 20s. And let's not even talk about what happens if you deep fry it to French fries (OK let's do it, the score drops to 13).

Perhaps the most surprising scores are olives (27) and avocado (34). A bit lowish, so perhaps some caution is recommended if you want to lean out. Why are they so low? They are extremely low in protein percentage. In other words olives and avocados mostly supply energy (from fat). That's great if you need the energy, but less great if you have too much already.

The main story though, is that pretty much all vegetables are great from a satiety perspective. I'd suggest eating them as much as you like. What's your favorite vegetable?
Check the satiety of any food – and learn how it's calculated: hava.co/science


My favorites that were limited on "keto" are Tubers. Crunchy carrots [59] and the occasional baked potato [43] with a steak. If you replace baked pepperoni,nuts and cheese crisps with carrots, red pepper strips, cucumber, etc, you eliminate hundreds of calories of fat, and gain nutrient dense tasty crunch.
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  #27   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-24, 05:05
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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KeyTones (Kathy) continues to use HAVAs AI photo tracking. Her latest post about it with her awesome success photo. "Left, age 35. Right, age 59, at about half my former size! #thePEDiet, #satiety. Love the new Hava app guidance system with the amazing & easy AI food photo uploader (helped with taking off a bit of holiday weight &#128513"
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  #28   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-24, 06:32
BawdyWench's Avatar
BawdyWench BawdyWench is offline
Posts: 8,794
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 212/179/160 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Rural Maine
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I don't get it. Cauliflower is more satiating than a steak??? I'm not at all sated/satisfied eating veggies. They don't fill me up. Well, they do, for about 30 minutes and then I'm running on empty, whereas 8 oz of ground beef means I'm good for up to 6 hours.
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  #29   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-24, 07:12
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Remember this is satiety per calorie.
8 oz of 80% lean ground beef is 576 calories, 37g fat, and 57g Protein.
80 oz (5 pounds!) of cauliflower is 522 calories, 10g fat, and 42g Protein.
But since unlikely to eat 5 pounds, even 8 oz of cauliflower is only 52 calories, with a full days RDA of Vitamin C, 4g Protein, and loads of other satiating vitamins and minerals.

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Feb-21-24 at 07:17.
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  #30   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-24, 07:44
BawdyWench's Avatar
BawdyWench BawdyWench is offline
Posts: 8,794
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 212/179/160 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Rural Maine
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True, but I'll stick with my meat, especially since veggies and fiber in general wreaks havoc with my digestion. But, you've done great on these plans, which is great!
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