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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Jul-25-23, 04:30
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Default Carnivore vs Plant-Based vs Satiety: Which Nutrients are Harder to Get?

I was looking for a Carnivore thread, the Zero Carb one in Paleo forum hasn’t had a post since Jan2018. So new thread here.

Marty Kendall wrote a new blog post on Satiety and Nutrient Density for various forms of a Carnivore Diet. Each version of carnivore has its Nutrient density and Satiety score with Protein % in a chart. Interesting to learn about these different levels of food lists.

Carnivore vs Plant-Based vs Satiety: Which Nutrients are Harder to Get?
https://optimisingnutrition.com/car...nts/#more-41751

Quote:
An omnivorous diet allows us to maximise nutrient density and satiety and minimises ultra-processed foods.
The more we narrow our food choices, the less nutritionally complementary foods we have to choose from. If we drop plants and keep seafood and dairy, we can still get a fairly nutritious outcome.
However, nutrient density and satiety decrease as we exclude more foods from our repertoire.
A meat-only diet provides heaps of bioavailable protein, which is the foundation of any healthy diet, but it can be harder to get several essential micronutrients, including vitamin K1, vitamin C, manganese, folate, calcium, vitamin E and omega 3.

DietDoctor has new guides to carnivore.
Sinking our teeth into the carnivore diet: what’s known, what’s not
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/carnivore
This covers the basics and includes a good list of the websites and podcasts that feature Carnivore.

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, Jul-25-23 at 05:14.
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, Aug-20-23, 05:29
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Thanks, JEY! I'm 90% carnivore, as in animal-based as a portion of my diet. I eat meat, dark poultry, seafood, and dairy, with low oxalate/low carb fruits and vegetables. Which fits right in with this article quote:

Quote:
“By and large, most people doing the carnivore diet have some persistent health issue that the keto diet did not completely fix, such as not enough weight loss, a mental health condition, an autoimmune condition, or uncontrolled cravings,” says Dr. Paul Mabry, a zero-carb US family doctor who blogs at Born to Eat Meat and manages a Facebook group, Zero Carb Doc, which now has more than 8,500 members.


Myself, ALL of the above! Keto was great, until it wasn't. Fortunately, the information in Toxic Superfoods, which came out half a year ago, has a lot of nutrition science which greatly helped. It was the missing piece for me. My symptoms got triggered by rhubarb, a high oxalate vegetable, from a keto cheesecake hobby during the pandemic. I still love my low carb cheesecakes, but I'm a lot pickier about plant content these days.

Autoimmune is known to respond to carnivore, and in January of 2019, it put my terrible flare under control in a week. But that was an emergency move, because my plan was to use it as an elimination diet. If I added foods one at a time, I could tell how I had triggered the terrible flare in the first place. My answer turned out to be oxalates. Which I think is highly involved in all autoimmune issues.

And perhaps I had clues to what would help me the most, since I only lasted a few months as a vegetarian. I don't have the enzymes to get protein from all the rice and beans I was eating. I would have had to live on eggs and cheese because the carbs involved was messing me up. Which isn't vegetarian, and I'm sure the nice ladies at the health food store thought I was ignoring their advice, when I was doing it "right" and it still didn't work.

While only a few months on Atkins convinced me carbs are my kryptonite. That was my first successful food change and of course it was the one that had been demonized for decades. But I lost down to what I thought was my lowest size, only to eliminate more non-working foods and achieve greater success.

Our own personal bio-availability issues are, I'm convinced, so important to our food choices. Whatever the nutrients, we need a source we can actually extract the nutrition from. I'm reminded of the first time I read one of those hearthealthywholegrains articles and realized the vitamins they were extolling had been added to the flour. Because there's not a lot of real wheat flour in anything people normally eat. They extol the virtues of whole grains, but no one eats so much as a pumpernickel bagel these days.

Still, I've seen people get healthier on food plans that would literally kill me. And I know some people would need disinformation therapy to even consider eating the way I do. And I still, as I always have, know that it's not as expensive as NOT eating enough animal products, and stuffing oneself in a vain attempt at real nourishment. If you factor in the medicine savings, even though we are both retirement age, and it's still cheaper than trying to fix a problem with bad food and medicine.

Real food will always be cheaper than the autoimmune drugs, even with insurance help. I can buy a box of cookies for $5, or a cheap cut of meat. No contest.
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  #3   ^
Old Sun, Aug-20-23, 08:18
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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I enjoy two youtube channels, both men are tackling 500# BW with carnivore. And dropping fast. Both men are happy again. Both are delightful to follow.
One comment recently compared low carb keto to carnivore. For this man, ad he reported, lowcarb keto gave good results but switching to carnivore dropped three times the weight over a shorter time.

I wish there were studies to help explain why this works thus way. I wonder if carnivore deals with insulin resistance quicker...
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  #4   ^
Old Sun, Aug-20-23, 10:34
dan_rose dan_rose is offline
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Plan: None, limit carbs, Omega6
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Hi Jey, does Marty provide any information regarding how the nutrient ratings are obtained? In particular, why is Mackeral at 80% but canned Mackeral is only 52% (on a Nutrient per serving basis).

My understanding is that canned fish is cooked in the can so nothing is missing albeit I guess if the temperature is higher or longer than normal cooking, some nutrients could be degraded. Also, in some cases, the bones are left in and are soft enough to eat so presumably that would make canned fish more nutritious.
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  #5   ^
Old Sun, Aug-20-23, 10:39
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JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Arielle,

The major benefit to carnivore over low carb keto is the magic of Protein Leverage. As long as they don’t overdo fat, and get the nutrients that are abundant in protein foods, they should be successful.

Quote:
Benefits of the Carnivore Diet

Carnivore has many benefits. For starters, it is almost inevitable that you will get adequate bioavailable protein on a carnivore diet (unless you’re explicitly targeting high fat).

Hitting your protein goal often means that you will also hit your targets for the ‘cluster’ of nutrients that tend to accompany high-protein foods. Increasing your intake of the amino acids and the nutrients that come with them will increase your satiety and allow you to eat less while still feeling full.

A carnivorous diet also excludes sugars, refined grains and industrial seed oils, which are the primary components of hyperpalatable ultra-processed food.

Compounds in plant foods often contribute to or spur many intolerances. So, if you are dealing with histamine intolerance or sensitivities to different foods, the carnivore diet is considered the ‘ultimate elimination diet’ because it removes all plant foods.


More good info on Carnivore: https://optimisingnutrition.com/car...ist/#more-38100

I’ve also read many more stories of NOT losing weight on carnivore, having digestive issues, bored with lack of variety, etc. As people can fail on most "every" diet, inc, LC and Keto. Did X Diet Fail You?

https://optimisingnutrition.com/did-diet-x-fail-you/.

You can harness the weight loss power of Protein Leverage, while still eating a balanced diet including vegetables, fruit and dairy. The biggest lesson from upping my protein and tracking was realizing what is considered Protein on LC or Carnivore food lists is often more Fat, more Calories.

https://optimisingnutrition.com/pro...sis/#more-36979

Last edited by JEY100 : Sun, Aug-20-23 at 13:57.
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  #6   ^
Old Sun, Aug-20-23, 10:49
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JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_rose
Hi Jey, does Marty provide any information regarding how the nutrient ratings are obtained? In particular, why is Mackeral at 80% but canned Mackeral is only 52% (on a Nutrient per serving basis).

My understanding is that canned fish is cooked in the can so nothing is missing albeit I guess if the temperature is higher or longer than normal cooking, some nutrients could be degraded. Also, in some cases, the bones are left in and are soft enough to eat so presumably that would make canned fish more nutritious.



You may need to ask Marty that in the ON Community. I know he different ratings for the Satiety Index. He gave some broad comparisons to what he uses compared to the Tufts Nutrient Profile system. https://optimisingnutrition.com/tuf...ranking-factors
But sorry, I have no idea why the difference between canned and fresh mackerel
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  #7   ^
Old Sun, Aug-20-23, 19:41
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deirdra deirdra is offline
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Presumably the fresh mackerel is cooked dryish, whereas canned mackerel has more liquid with it, so 100g fresh dry-cooked vs 100g canned/wet-cooked which may be ~15% water.
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, Aug-21-23, 10:18
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
I wish there were studies to help explain why this works thus way. I wonder if carnivore deals with insulin resistance quicker...


Since I've done both, I can compare:

As we discussed when Keto became a buzzword instead of the science of Ketosis, people aren't doing "a diet to put a person in ketosis," which is how I did Keto. Far more are "doing keto!" based on what they see on TikTok.

It's an information gap. Mainstream health articles, which number in the billions, emphasize that keto drops the weight fast, but no one should STAY on it because MEAT KILLS. Implying that you really want to be plant-based, allegedly "for the planet." The Great Plant-Based Con is an excellent book which debunks many of these myths of veganism.

So people go in ready to bail because of vague health concerns. But there are tons of nut-based protein bars, and the plant-based ones... like with pea protein. And artificial binders and emulsifiers and sweeteners, flavors, and colors. I know, because I've seen them, that people eat 80% UPF with "keto."

And I can't even blame them because the numbers add up. Except in one's body, where that pea protein counts 2/3rds of what an animal source provides. Crunch THOSE numbers and either people get enough protein by eating more of this artificial stuff, or they don't get enough protein.

While carnivore is not subject to such confusion. It's meat, or it's not. It's balancing itself with macros and bio-availability.

Unless we are talking tofurkey or these:

Quote:
The entire ingredients label for VeganEgg is as follows: Whole algal flour, whole algal protein, modified cellulose, cellulose, gellan gum, calcium lactate (plant source), carrageenan, nutritional yeast, black salt as of Mar 2, 2023
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  #9   ^
Old Mon, Aug-21-23, 10:21
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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The snag I hit with Carnivore was oxalate-related. I was dumping oxalate because I had dropped my intake to near zero. I had to add in plants, small amounts, to keep the dumping from riling up my immune system. Now, I'm doing great: keto, low oxalate, 90% carnivore. This works the best yet.
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  #10   ^
Old Sun, Sep-03-23, 10:38
dan_rose dan_rose is offline
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Plan: None, limit carbs, Omega6
Stats: 161/140/140 Male 5'10"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
Presumably the fresh mackerel is cooked dryish, whereas canned mackerel has more liquid with it, so 100g fresh dry-cooked vs 100g canned/wet-cooked which may be ~15% water.


After looking at the list again, the subtitle contains 'in the servings we typically eat of them':
https://members.optimisingnutrition...utrient-density

Thus, the difference may be simply to do with serving size - the fish in a can is relatively small compared to a grilled whole one. Another possibility is that the can contains oil and this is taken into account (I personally buy it in, and drink, the brine).
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  #11   ^
Old Tue, Sep-05-23, 07:53
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_rose
Thus, the difference may be simply to do with serving size - the fish in a can is relatively small compared to a grilled whole one. Another possibility is that the can contains oil and this is taken into account (I personally buy it in, and drink, the brine).


I've since discovered that so much of the nutrient information is decades+ old, and subject to copying errors over the years. Like the nutrient content of spinach, where a decimal place got moved in the calcium content, and suddenly it was a promotable vegetable superstar.

But these kinds of unreliable public domain nutrition data is all over the place. It's why we can't use a spreadsheet on ourselves.
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Sep-07-23, 05:51
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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It turns out people who eat meat like the Inuit have a gene which helps then adapt. But Western Europeanson explorers also get adequate Vitamin C, when they ate the native diet.

There's some evidence that a grain heavy diet requires more vitamin C. Whuch

And then there's individual variation. I need MOAR niacin than the RDA, daily.
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  #13   ^
Old Sun, Sep-17-23, 06:27
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Boy, brain fog like London in that last comment

I was probably going to say something about bio-availability, which is everyone's end game. It doesn't matter what you eat if your body can't get much from it.
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Oct-27-23, 03:14
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
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There are many sub-forums to add this new article, but this thread covers the nutrition part, paleo, Ray Peat, oxalate dumping, carnivore, etc.
This story is especially for WereBear…is Melissa your twin?

From Trials to Triumph: Melissa’s Nutritional Odyssey to Optimal Health

https://optimisingnutrition.com/fro...optimal-health/

Starting with years of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/ME, she tries Paleo but has gut issues from antibiotics , problems with high oxalate foods, tries and has success on Ray Peat's diet, but gains significant weight, then had some success with carnivore losing some of the weight, but then regained some when carnivore was too high fat. She gives each a fair trial of a few years

She relates her long journey to Optimal Nutrition from the perspective of a newcomer, finding what is best from each diet, and then finding a new plan totally personalized her her health.

Tried Every Diet Without Success? Uncover Why Some Diets Fail You and Others Triumph. https://optimisingnutrition.com/did-diet-x-fail-you/

Last edited by JEY100 : Fri, Oct-27-23 at 05:12.
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Oct-27-23, 05:20
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
This story is especially for WereBear…is Melissa your twin?

From Trials to Triumph: Melissa’s Nutritional Odyssey to Optimal Health

https://optimisingnutrition.com/fro...optimal-health/


Not separated at birth, but pretty close

Thrilled that she's come back from CFS/ME. That's what DH has. Her story will cheer him up, thanks!
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