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  #1   ^
Old Mon, Dec-19-22, 04:51
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default Satiety; Curb Hunger and Reach Goals

The past two years, as "keto" has faded and Higher Protein, Lower Fat versions of Low Carb replace it, the importance of satiety per calorie has also taken on a larger role. DietDoctor will be emphasizing it this coming year, while still offering information about therapeutic low carb, etc.

A general introduction to Satiety Per Calorie, with links to the Science behind it:
Satiety score: curb hunger and reach your goals.
https://www.dietdoctor.com/satiety/score

Higher-satiety eating: What satiety means & how to get started.
https://www.dietdoctor.com/satiety

The new food list, named the Food Navigator, with the Satiety Score for many foods in graphic form:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/food-navigator/satiety

Marty Kendall has already written many articles on satiety, he added a new overview today:
Satiety: How to Lose Weight with Less Hunger.
https://optimisingnutrition.com/sat...th-less-hunger/


The thread on Higher Protein Diets in this sub-forum:

https://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=484926

And in the thread on Dr Ted Naiman and the P:E Diet:

https://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=483930

Last edited by JEY100 : Mon, Dec-19-22 at 11:16.
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  #2   ^
Old Mon, Dec-19-22, 08:53
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 19,293
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 225/224/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 2%
Location: Massachusetts
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Funny you posted about satity as this was on my radar this morning. Based on a study but was the improvement really eating pulses and potatoes or the decrease in calories causing weight loss.

Always more questions than answers. So thanks for posting reliable sources of info.

https://youtu.be/3rwyZTBKTZc
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Dec-19-22, 11:31
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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From Marty's article:

Quote:
While it’s ideal to obtain more of all the essential nutrients per calorie, through multivariate analysis, we found some have a more significant impact than others. We consistently found that the following nutrients coincided with the most significant decrease in calories consumed:

Protein %
Fibre,
Potassium,
Sodium,
Calcium,
Selenium,
Pantothenic acid (B5), and
Folate (B9).


The percentage of protein in your diet is highly correlated with how much food you will consume.
https://optimisingnutrition.com/protein-percentage/

Quote:
Are Potatoes the Most Satiating Food?

The cooked and cooled plain potato, full of resistant starch, with no salt or added fat, achieved the highest satiety score.


Many people have successfully lost weight on the potato hack diet because they are bland and have a low energy density. You would probably lose interest in eating if all you had to eat was potatoes. However, you may also lose more muscle with a diet that offers only 8% protein.

In an associated paper, using the Satiety Index Study data, Susanna Holt and her team also noted that high-carb foods that raise insulin and blood glucose quickly have a more significant short-term impact on satiety.

However, given that the researchers were studying feelings of fullness during the course of three hours, their study would have been more appropriately titled A Satiation Index of Common Foods rather than a satiety index, which is a longer-term phenomenon.

High-starch foods that raise blood glucose and insulin quickly often lead to short-term satiation but not long-term satiety.

Your appetite quickly shuts down until you have cleared the extra glucose from your blood. But once your blood glucose comes crashing down, you’re likely to be ravenously hungry, eat again sooner, and make poorer food choices at your next meal.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Dec-19-22, 12:15
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 19,293
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 225/224/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 2%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Your appetite quickly shuts down until you have cleared the extra glucose from your blood. But once your blood glucose comes crashing down, you’re likely to be ravenously hungry, eat again sooner, and make poorer food choices at your next meal.


😉 Too true for many.
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  #5   ^
Old Mon, Dec-19-22, 19:19
Gypsybyrd's Avatar
Gypsybyrd Gypsybyrd is offline
Posts: 7,035
 
Plan: Keto IMO Atkins 72 Induct
Stats: 283/229/180 Female 5'3"
BF:mini goal 250, 225
Progress: 52%
Location: St. Pete, Florida
Default

It's an interesting topic. I've a paid subscription to Diet Doctor so I've seen their focus on satiety. However, I'm not a fan of the push for high protein. And that is personal to me ... I do better on higher fat and moderate protein so long as I am eating over 1,500 calories per day (well, really over 2,000). My challenge with higher fat for me is that I get full and stay full for so long that I end up eating less than 750 calories per day. While I don't track calories for purposes of tracking to decrease to lose weight, I do believe calories matter in the opposite direction: I need to keep calories up.

If I change my perspective of "high protein" to mean at least 100 or 120 grams of protein and still eating the same or more of fat, then, I'm down with that.
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  #6   ^
Old Tue, Dec-20-22, 04:02
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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That's interesting that you find fat more satiating…what do you eat at 750 cal? The problem with an Atkins style food list for me, even with limits on added fats like butter or Mayo, was that the food provided satiety…. but at too many calories for me to lose weight (I regained) and not enough nutrition. Unlikely I was ever satisfied at 750 cal…probably ate double that. In addition to the higher calories…

"While some people believe that fat is the most satiating macronutrient and you can ‘eat fat to satiety’, we know that fat provides very little in the way of vitamins, minerals, and amino acids, which largely influence satiety. Once your blood glucose is stable and you’ve reduced your refined carbs, it may be better to dial back your dietary fat intake so your body can use the body fat it has stored." https://optimisingnutrition.com/car...-carbs-and-fat/

This article started me on the path to finding satiety at a lower fat percentage (which means for me more nutritious low calorie carbs and higher protein.) Mind you, it took a decade before I accepted "keto" wasn’t working for me.
Keto Lie #11: You Should ‘Eat Fat to Satiety’ to Lose Body Fat. https://optimisingnutrition.com/eat-fat-to-satiety/
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  #7   ^
Old Tue, Dec-20-22, 09:08
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 19,293
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 225/224/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 2%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Two points.

Fats. For me, protein and fats are satiating. There is much written about eating more fats early on during start up phase, then decreasing it when body developed it's ability to mobilize stored fat. Consuming some fat with a meal, usually high protein, helps me feel fuller longer. Also, fats help with absorption of many vitamins, specifically the fat soluble vitamins. I've not found anything to debunk this.....has anyone read differently???

My fats of choice are carefully selected. For their nutrients and non- processed crafting. Specifically, coconut oil for brain support thru MCT, EVOO the best real olive oil for polyphenols , real butter for the buterates. The seed oils,aka veg oils, are long gone from cooking. Exceptions creep in via mayo and salad dressing. Hence, more homemade dressings using evoo; and rare use of Hellman's mayo. ( Occasionally make homemade mayo but it has a very different taste than Hellman's mayo.) Sometimes buy avocado oil.

Meats already contain fat. Steaks have marbling and don't need extra fats in cooking. As I remember, 50% of calories in a steak is fat. So adding fat is not necessary. Some proteins other much lower. For example skinless chicken breast. Atkins encouraged eating the chicken with skin on. Adds satiety AND adds a source of collagen for our skin.


Quote:
When you eat can also impact satiety. For example, people who consume more of their calories earlier in the day tend to eat less across the day.


Why doesn't this work for me??? Once I eat, a monster is released. Even if a low carb well formulated meal. Mean ing plenty of real meat , plenty of veg and some fat. Not an English muffin. Not oatmeal. Eating the latter will have me back for more within an hour. Meat and veg has me looking / thinking about food within a couple hours. Only in full ketosis does thoughts of food go away.

My solution has been to eat first meal after noon, two o'clock is better. As I will keep eating until bedtime. Not eating after evening meal is a struggle. Added to that, very late around midnight is a witching hour. The only answer is to be in bed BEFORE that hits. Which isn't always possible as my DH gets home from second job about 11:30 and I can't sleep until he is safely home. (Effect of 11:15 phone call he was in car accident that totalled the truck.)

Definitely working on all this.



List. Interesting layout putting beans higher than Atkins. It allows more variety in food choices. Missed chili!!

Re pineapple. Very low on list probable due to very high sugar. It's purported to help with floaters by one eye doctor.

Re berries. Shocked it was so low on this list, yet blueberries and raspberries are primary fruit options on Atkins.

Fiber. Years ago a GI doctor advised Consyl given a family history that put colon cancer as a high possibility. Changed from expensive Consyl to cheap bag of horse grade bran. THEN realized it's the vegetable fibers, in all their forms , that was likely of value over bran which is grain based and very sharp and only non- soluble. Vegetables offered the full spectrum. ( Along with adding microbe sources.)

Putting this all together, meals are whole foods. Nothing packaged. Meat and veg and whole fruits, a few nuts; no milk, just cheeses or plain yogurt.


Yet, it's easy to eat all day. Other things are going on .....

To be clear, the list is GREAT. Many will find success with this!
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  #8   ^
Old Tue, Dec-20-22, 13:18
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

The fat adaption phase is usually 4-6 weeks, after that you do not need to eat extra fat. I found to actually lose weight, I needed to closely monitor the LC foods list too. Bacon is a fat, not a protein. Even eggs with yolks are more a maintenance food, why I now eat 2 whole eggs for nutrition, plus egg whites and chicken to get enough protein without the fat I would rather have come from my body. Have to work up to higher protein slowly, making substitutions, not buying beef sirloin or ribeyes, but go for leaner beef, 90% lean or above as ground beef. Steak is 54% fat, and 4 oz only has 30g of protein. Pork rinds are ridiculously high in calories and low in satiety…similar to potato chips. No sour cream, cream cheese, cheese or nuts needed as I get enough good fats from meat, fish and eggs. I have added low fat dairy and tons of vegetables to also get the satiety from the nutrients in dairy I was deficient in and real food fiber.

I also use about a 6-8 hour eating window, but to control appetite, that first meal is at least 50 g of protein. It is worth looking foods up on a tracker like Cronometer and then using the P:E ratio, aiming for above 1. https://proteinpercent.com In percentages for weight loss, that is 40% protein with 30% - 40% fat and carbs. 30-40% fat is more than enough to support hormone function and fat soluble vitamins. Olive oil may have polyphenols but the only nutrients it has is a small amount of Vit E & K, Omega 3 & 6. Canned Salmon has a full range of B vitamins, D, E and a long a list of satiating minerals, Good source of selenium and many more nutrients, including those in the list that contribute to satiety. These nutrients also contributed to stronger nails, thicker hair, less bruising, and of course satiety and less hunger

Quote:
Some of the most satiating nutrients that provide the greatest long-term satiety effect are protein, calcium, potassium, sodium, fibre, riboflavin, pantothenic acid, and selenium. Thus, if we aren’t consuming enough of these nutrients, we’re more likely to keep eating as our appetites send us in search of what we need.


One reason people may not be satiated after their first meal is that they didn’t optimize protein, fiber and nutrients. A typical LC bacon & egg breakfast is about 18 g of protein and fat. You might try eating 50g of protein for your first meal…a stretch goal for sure, but I realized the LC foods I had been eating were too low in protein, too high in fat, too low in nutrients like calcium, selenium, etc. My sample first meal in first paragraph is around 60 g. protein, 15 g fat, for only about 500 calories.

Adding back vegetables and fruits was very helpful for me too, if my first meal is not with eggs, it is often a big vegetable stir-fry with chicken or shrimp. I use low or no fat dairy mixed with fruit and protein powder, like Ted Naiman's ice cream. If you save that for an after dinner dessert, that tops up protein so do not get hungry at night/next morning.

My new journal has more of the details how I reached goal weigh and have now easily maintained it more than a year, including Ted Naiman's one page diet graphic:
https://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=485372


Edit: Berries are the best of the lot when it comes to Satiety. If it is Green it is go I’ve heard Dr Naiman say that Raspberries have a high Satiety per calorie. I use a Three Berry frozen mix almost everyday for my sweet treat.
https://www.dietdoctor.com/food-nav.../fruits-berries

I have a large crockpot "Steak and Black Bean Chili" recipe I used often in my pre-LC days…I am so happy to have it back! With only two of us now, I can freeze about six dinners.

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Dec-21-22 at 04:02.
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  #9   ^
Old Sun, Jun-04-23, 03:17
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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DietDoctor, Dr Ted Naiman and Marty Kendall have written many more articles about SATIETY since this Dec 2022 thread started. Fascinating and very helpful new Article today on how to PERSONALIZE Satiety on low carb, or low fatNice graphic Food lists!
Marty Kendall is Diet Agnostic, his programs support LC, Vegetarian, Carnivore, 30 diets in all, but these are the two most controversial.

Personalised Satiety: Optimising Satiety for Low Carb OR Low Fat

https://optimisingnutrition.com/per...arb-or-low-fat/

Quote:
Is low-carb or low-fat better for weight loss?
This is one of the most hotly debated topics controversies in nutrition. There are plenty of passionate people on either side of the low-carb vs low-fat divide.
But the reality is that many people lose weight by limiting either fat or carbs. Many studies also support this, like Dr Christopher Gardner’s 2018 Stanford DIETFITS trial, have shown a similar distribution of weight loss for low-carb and low-fat.


One year weight loss graphs look similar, and were not statistically different.

Quote:
Diet Quality Matters!

Back in 2018, the DIETFITS randomised clinical trial, partly sponsored by Gary Taubes and Peter Attia’s Nutrition Science Initiative (NUSI), was ground-breaking news.
They randomised 609 overweight adults to a healthy low-carb or low-fat diet for 12 months. Rather than going extremely low carb or low fat, the researchers encouraged study participants to emphasise diet quality to create the best version of their diet they could.
On average, the low-carb dieters lost a little more (6.0 kg) than the low-fat dieters (5.3 kg), but the difference was not statistically significant.

Rather than ‘which diet won,’ the more interesting observation from the study was that both diets produced massive weight loss for some people while others gained weight with the same advice.
In interviews after the study was released, Dr Gardner said the people who improved their diet quality and changed their relationship with food tended to lose the most weight. In addition, they tended to be the ones that started going to their local farmers’ market on the weekend to buy the freshest, tastiest Low Carb ingredients to create their healthy version of a low-carb or low-fat diet.
While not specifically quantified in the study, nutrient density might be the differentiating factor determining whether you will thrive on a low-carb or low-fat diet.


Quote:
. How to Personalise Your Satiety Low Carb

For a lower-carb diet, protein % is the dominant satiety factor, while potassium, fibre, calcium and sodium play a support role.

If you prefer a lower-carb diet, you should prioritise non-starchy vegetables, lower-fat dairy, seafood and meat, ideally with less added dietary fat to allow fat loss from your body.

In our Macros Masterclass, we guide Optimisers through dialling back energy from fat and carbs while prioritising protein to increase their protein % and thus satiety gradually.


More in article summary.

Also as in my Success Story, confirmed through Marty's free Nutrient analysis, that after ten years low carb, I was deficient in minerals that contribute to satiety, "People following a low carb diet typically get less magnesium, potassium, folate, calcium, Vitamins A, C and K1, while they will be getting plenty of vitamin B12 and amino acids" as in analysis above. By analyzing my diet with Nutrient Optimiser, I was also low on Selenium and Zinc, two of the 11 nutrients important for thyroid health."
I added more seafood, lean proteins, and increased FF dairy, non-starchy vegetables, and berries. I eliminated any protein meal that had less than a Protein to Energy ratio of 1 ( processed meats, bacon, sausage, cheese, fatty beef) and reduced all added fats and oils.
SATIETY and NUTRIENT DENSITY is what allows me to maintain an Ideal BMI.

Last edited by JEY100 : Sun, Jun-04-23 at 14:14.
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  #10   ^
Old Sun, Jun-04-23, 04:42
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cotonpal cotonpal is offline
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Posts: 5,352
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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It always astounded me how disinterested the low carb community seemed to be about nutrition. I was an early adopter of Marty Kendall's approach. I continue to use the principles he professes although I don't weigh and measure what I eat (or what my body weighs) anywhere near as much as I used to.

The importance of paying attention to the nutritional content of one's diet is about more than just satiety. It is about overall health. Of course feeling satiated is no doubt closely related to ingesting adequate or even optimal nutrients both on the macro level and on the micro level.

Last edited by cotonpal : Sun, Jun-04-23 at 04:50.
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  #11   ^
Old Sun, Jun-04-23, 05:23
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Jean, When the DIETFIT results were announced, the LC community (and Gary Taubes) were upset it "wasn’t really all that LOW carb", the study wasn’t done correctly, long list of complaints, etc…sure I probably said the same! Only joined the nutrient density and PE folks in 2020, while you were leading the way here.

This is the article we should have read in 2018. WHY the results were the same, why both low carb and low fat approaches can work for weight loss.

As Dr Naiman says, If the Carbohydrate-Insulin Model is true, then its proponents need to explain all the millions of "black swans" around the world who maintain a healthy weight on a low fat diet. 😆. They are so entrenched in low carb, they can’t accept a compromise to increase protein and lower energy may work better than either of the extremes.

Another good analysis of this topic beyond weight loss.
Low-Carb vs Low-Fat: What’s Best for Weight Loss, Satiety, Nutrient Density, and Long-Term Adherence?
https://optimisingnutrition.com/low-carb-vs-low-fat/
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  #12   ^
Old Sun, Jun-04-23, 05:41
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cotonpal cotonpal is offline
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Posts: 5,352
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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I was stuck on Bernstein's 6-12-12 for a long time which meant that I was stuck on 30 total carbs a day, not net carbs, so even changing from total carbs to net carbs felt at first like sacrilege. What really opened my mind to greater flexibility was learning about prioritizing protein. Certainly eating 6-12-12 really helped me lose weight and get some routine into my eating but prioritizing protein helped me lose the rigidity in my carb intake (along with my belief that the more fat the better). I think the problem comes in when we treat our eating principles like religion where any deviation from the plan is sacrilege. If we can keep our minds open to new information and pay attention to both what makes logical sense and what gets us the results we want, we can function as intelligent human beings and not members of a cult.
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  #13   ^
Old Sun, Jun-04-23, 05:51
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cotonpal cotonpal is offline
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Posts: 5,352
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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I should add that along with Marty Kendall the other person who prioritized nutrition (and was less strict about the exact number of carbs) was Terry Wahls, whose eating plan has also influenced how I eat. I think that because Terry Wahls began focused on health, her own health and progressive disability from MS, and not on weight loss, she approached things differently than someone who starts out with weight loss as the primary goal.
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  #14   ^
Old Sun, Jun-04-23, 06:34
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Posts: 14,774
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
I think that because Terry Wahls began focused on health, her own health and progressive disability from MS, and not on weight loss, she approached things differently than someone who starts out with weight loss as the primary goal.


I read Terry Wahls book for my autoimmune, and she had so much insight. Most prominently was viewing it as one disease with myriad symptoms. Currently, we treat it as though all smallpox patients should be sent to a dermatologist. And it inevitably leads to horrifying side effects from those immune-suppression drugs. (At least, they seem to have the worst warnings in the commercials.) I'm not a transplant patient. I'm balancing different risks.

Except the book presented -- at least the version in late 2018 -- as though abundant veggies were non-negotiable. While i appreciated everything she said, I KNEW I could not possibly eat that many vegetables simply from an appetite point of view. But I'd hit my fiber limit before coming close to what i needed. By which time I also knew I had to watch out for lectins, too. So I went carnivore. With great results.

But it turns out it might have been oxalate all along, especially in my case. I take so well to carnivore that I suspect my "plant tolerance" is far lower than average.

But now I think her research might get trapped in the plant-based vortex. A healthy plant-based diet with health properties is what her grants were for.

In a personal note on her site she said she was highly keto now, restricting her "beloved black beans" to a few summer salads. But while I'm pleased she's doing well with it, of course, I wonder how much she and I are outliers, now.

In the end, perhaps autoimmune gets so much relief from keto because it's a symptom of plant intolerance

What I love about Marty's system is how it uses a glucose meter to tell you what is going on, and I have used it with great effect on DH. I got him a free meter. Seeing his blood sugar after a formerly favorite meal was his first food wakeup call.

JEY's success shows how much we have to tweak. Which becomes an ongoing skill as we and our bodies change.
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, Jun-08-23, 04:27
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,505
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Marty has added an article that explains,

Satiety Per Calorie vs Calories In – Calories Out
Eight points of clarification.



https://optimisingnutrition.com/sat...n-calories-out/
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