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  #16   ^
Old Tue, Dec-26-23, 11:32
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 19,283
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 225/224/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 2%
Location: Massachusetts
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Im looking for my edition of DANDR. Dr Atkins talks about an elimination diet, and it looks like Carnivore fits.

Anecdotal info shows some people gain weight, then the pounds drop after weeks of carnivore. Dr Berry mentioned that meats also contain glycogen, so sugar type substances are not really zeroed out on carnivore. Other mention finding the sweet spit on quantity of fat. Enough to grease the skids but beware of excess that increases body weight.

What i also like about carnivore is that struggle with monitoring carbs, so a month of carnivore was overall very easy and surprisingly easier mentally planning meals.

Going back to digestibility. Is two hours reasonable? Im asking this as a year ago an experience with severe food poisoning caused visits to the throne all night.....it was clear when food stopped appearing and only liquidy mucus was resulting. This change was not at two hours, because thats when my body started rejecting the mandarin orange. That was about 10 pm. Clearing out the contents continued for many more hours. The exact number I dont remember. What I remember is the amazement that there was still more to remove!!! This makes me question the two hours the pharmacy recommends.

Overall, meats and fats are far more satiating than other foods.
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  #17   ^
Old Tue, Dec-26-23, 13:18
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,065
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
Exactly. I never took that very seriously. I was alerted to "protein downplaying" when I tried vegetarianism, before it went extreme and vegan.

Everything we learn about biology and our bodies indicates protein is the biggest macronutrient of them all. This also supports protein = satiety because the body would be the fussiest about that, first.

Yes, based on the Protein Leverage hypothesis, this makes sense as satiety is reached when enough protein is consumed regardless of total energy intake. Favoring protein enables one to reach satiety and consume fewer calories if one reduces carbs and fats in their meals. Iíd guess many of us who prioritize healthy proteins experience this. Favoring protein as we age is important as we experience muscle tissue loss in favor of fat gain if we donít get enough protein. As Iím experiencing now, combining resistance training with increased protein prevents sarcopenia (muscle wasting). When one has a healthy muscle mass, it becomes a good glucose sink in that it prevents excess glucose from being stored as fat. Itís true that you canít outrun a bad diet, but muscle health helps moderate oneís weight in this way.

Hereís a study showing this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8074531/
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  #18   ^
Old Wed, Dec-27-23, 11:23
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,500
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Quote:
Overall, meats and fats are far more satiating than other foods.
Ö. But not on a Satiety Per Calorie basis.
Meat is a good source of protein but unless you pick lean cuts, it is easy to overeat fat. Egg whites, turkey, chicken breast, shrimp, fish, salmon, NF Greek yogurt are all lower fat sources of protein than the popular carnivore meal of a rib eye.
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  #19   ^
Old Wed, Dec-27-23, 12:58
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,065
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Ö. But not on a Satiety Per Calorie basis.
Meat is a good source of protein but unless you pick lean cuts, it is easy to overeat fat. Egg whites, turkey, chicken breast, shrimp, fish, salmon, NF Greek yogurt are all lower fat sources of protein than the popular carnivore meal of a rib eye.

I have zero problem with this premise, as it applies to some. The issue for me is making a blanket statement using the newly coined and still being understood/ refined "satiety per calorie" phrase when reaching satiety is so individualized with everyone having certainly nuanced and potentially varied results. I don't get the same reaction and have never had to choose lean cuts, but that's me. Healthy fats without over consuming them are essential for so many metabolic processes and the preservation of brain health. I was never one who gravitated to "fat bombs" or adopted "bulletproof coffee," because they didn't make sense, and I never became satiated simply because of fats. Making protein the keystone to my WOE a few years ago has made all the difference. The good news in this most recent study is that protein won't go to waste or be harmful if we're eating it to satiety wherever that point may be with the individual.
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  #20   ^
Old Wed, Dec-27-23, 13:55
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Posts: 5,348
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
I have zero problem with this premise, as it applies to some. The issue for me is making a blanket statement using the newly coined and still being understood/ refined "satiety per calorie" phrase when reaching satiety is so individualized with everyone having certainly nuanced and potentially varied results. I don't get the same reaction and have never had to choose lean cuts, but that's me. Healthy fats without over consuming them are essential for so many metabolic processes and the preservation of brain health. I was never one who gravitated to "fat bombs" or adopted "bulletproof coffee," because they didn't make sense, and I never became satiated simply because of fats. Making protein the keystone to my WOE a few years ago has made all the difference. The good news in this most recent study is that protein won't go to waste or be harmful if we're eating it to satiety wherever that point may be with the individual.


I also prioritize protein but not lean protein. This might just be a reaction to my mother who bought the low fat is good for you line completely and her strict adherence to it used to irritate me. She is no longer alive (she died at age 94). I just turned 75 and I seem to be doing ok not eating only ďleanĒ protein. If itís not broken why fix it?
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  #21   ^
Old Thu, Dec-28-23, 04:53
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,500
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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My "lean protein" comment definitely applies only to "some"! But being in another group that attracts people whose "Diet X" has failed, not everyone finds Carnivore a straight path to weight loss and health improvements. A common revelation is learning how much fat is in a carnivore approach that is hot dogs, 80% lean ground beef, and fatty steaks, and if they add butter, HWC, cheese, pork rinds and carnivore snax to meat, they overdo energy and gain weight.

Arielle, the time required for Protein Digestion is Dose-ResponseÖ.eat more, digestion takes longer. The last graph on right.

"These data show that the ingestion of larger amounts of protein requires a more prolonged period to allow full digestion, amino acid absorption, and subsequent amino acid release into the circulation."

Last edited by JEY100 : Thu, Dec-28-23 at 07:26.
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  #22   ^
Old Thu, Dec-28-23, 07:59
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
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Posts: 1,950
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
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Fat/protein ratio and amounts for satiety is definitely not one-size-fits-all.

Admittedly, I have a lot of trouble with my weight, but every time I try to lower fat with the same or even higher protein, I'm hungry again in no time.

But then I have always had a totally screwed up metabolism, so it seems very necessary for me to reach fat satiety along with enough protein to last the several hours that the fat satiety lasts.
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, Dec-28-23, 08:29
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 19,283
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 225/224/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 2%
Location: Massachusetts
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Thanks Janet.looked at graph again. Made more sense this time, along with your last post.

When I restart Atkins after a period of SAD, my weight goes up for a time, then as weeks progress, the weight drops. I expect the same with Carnivore. The suggestion from the experienced Carnivores is a 80/20, like a burger that is 80/20. And adjust from there.
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  #24   ^
Old Thu, Dec-28-23, 09:31
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
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Posts: 14,760
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
... every time I try to lower fat with the same or even higher protein, I'm hungry again in no time.


Likewise, and I was high fat since Atkins, essentially. I try to dial it back, and a few days later I put half a brick of cream cheese in my two egg omelette. To catch up. So I make sure I get enough to satisfy.

Chuck is my favorite cut, and I eat it with avocado oil or Greek yogurt dressing. Lately, pork in a coconut wrap and shredded cheddar is a favorite. I do put coconut oil in my decaf coffee, with heavy cream. (Which I share with the tortie cat.) It's a form of MCT oil, energy which goes directly into the bloodstream. Which is why coconut works, and butter does not. At least, for me. Though cream does not bother me. Doesn't the fat change?

All to explain I don't have a problem with fat, but with carbs. I wonder if I'm one of those for whom carnivore works so well because my genetics are suited to it. 2/3rds of my genes are from mountaintops, and most of the other third is North Atlantic. Not places known for long growing seasons.

While the people in Brazil (where I attended a wedding) danced the night away on 80% carbs. I now have a geographic theory about what we should eat

But when we consider how much the local flora and fauna would dictate what we eat, until the last couple of hundred years which is an eye blink in body time, it only makes sense that the different blends of regional enzymes would get inherited far away, where people eat differently.

At least the four food groups let me pick and choose, and as a child I always liked to eat the way I eat now. I was forced to eat vegetables (like everyone else) but I preferred them in cheese sauce. And of course grains, which I no longer like. I love a local Italian crustless cheesecake.

As my low carb journey progressed, my tastes did change. I grew to find grains a taste-smothering barrier to good eating.
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Dec-28-23, 09:35
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
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Posts: 14,760
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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I saw a recent video where yet another person was explaining that they gave up processed food, lost weight, and got their taste buds back. "And now, I can have it without overeating it, but I don't want it. It tastes like dirt."

And that's so true. It's what DH said when we had so many places closed and we needed food, but we wound up throwing it away. "It tastes like dirt," he said. He'd been away long enough that his tastes had reset.

It reminds me of how calorie counting never did me any favors, because I wouldn't eat fatty things, too high in calories. So I ate sandwich after sandwich and then candy, which was low in calories on a bite by bite basis.

What a mess that led to.
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  #26   ^
Old Thu, Dec-28-23, 10:12
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,500
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Thanks Janet.looked at graph again. Made more sense this time, along with your last post.

When I restart Atkins after a period of SAD, my weight goes up for a time, then as weeks progress, the weight drops. I expect the same with Carnivore. The suggestion from the experienced Carnivores is a 80/20, like a burger that is 80/20. And adjust from there.


80/20 beef, aka 80% lean, is 43% Protein and 57% fat. It may work well for Shawn Baker, but often not for older women who have spent years low carb/low cal dieting. What works on the P:E diet is around 40% protein, with the other 60% energy a combo of fat and carbs that meet your goals. Fewer calories, more micronutrients, more fiber, more satiety. The carbs are high-fiber green vegetables, berries and other low sugar fruits, NF dairy, etc, not flour, sugar nor "keto treats".

Last edited by JEY100 : Thu, Dec-28-23 at 11:28.
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  #27   ^
Old Thu, Dec-28-23, 11:54
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 19,283
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 225/224/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 2%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
80/20 beef, aka 80% lean, is 43% Protein and 57% fat. It may work well for Shawn Baker, but often not for older women who have spent years low carb/low cal dieting. What works on the P:E diet is around 40% protein, with the other 60% energy a combo of fat and carbs that meet your goals. Fewer calories, more micronutrients, more fiber, more satiety. The carbs are high-fiber green vegetables, berries and other low sugar fruits, NF dairy, etc, not flour, sugar nor "keto treats".



I definitely struggle with limiting carbs. One serving leads to another!Keeping to the under 30 net carbs is difficult. Even after eliminating flour, grains, sugar, starchy veggies. A 20 year battle. Need to go back to measuring by the cup or grams, for a while.


Oddly ,or not so oddly, cutting out the keto sweets really knocks down cravings for sweets.
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  #28   ^
Old Thu, Dec-28-23, 13:32
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,500
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Quote:
Keeping to the under 30 net carbs is difficult.
If a big salad at lunch leads to eating multiple servings of green vegetables at dinner, this really is not a problem as long as you avoid refined carbs. The satiating fiber and micronutrients in a high protein, moderate carb diet is what makes it healthy.
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  #29   ^
Old Thu, Dec-28-23, 17:24
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 19,283
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 225/224/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 2%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
If a big salad at lunch leads to eating multiple servings of green vegetables at dinner, this really is not a problem as long as you avoid refined carbs. The satiating fiber and micronutrients in a high protein, moderate carb diet is what makes it healthy.


Its been leading to fruit!! A crisp and juicy Pink Lady or Cosmic Crisp. A pomegranate. A grapefruit.

Definitely all whole fruits.

I need to give them up for a short time to get back into ketosis, says the carb addict. Then I can limit apples to a few slices, instead of a whole apple. .....off to find an apple..
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  #30   ^
Old Thu, Dec-28-23, 18:47
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
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Posts: 1,950
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
80/20 beef, aka 80% lean, is 43% Protein and 57% fat. It may work well for Shawn Baker, but often not for older women who have spent years low carb/low cal dieting. What works on the P:E diet is around 40% protein, with the other 60% energy a combo of fat and carbs that meet your goals. Fewer calories, more micronutrients, more fiber, more satiety. The carbs are high-fiber green vegetables, berries and other low sugar fruits, NF dairy, etc, not flour, sugar nor "keto treats".


I accidentally bought 3 lbs of 93% lean ground beef today.

I was utterly exhausted when I got to the store today, saw that single 1 lb packs of ground beef were 20 cents more per pounds than the 3-pack, and knowing I could cut the 3-pack apart and freeze them to use as needed, I threw the 3 pack into the cart. It wasn't until I got home and cut them apart that I noticed they were 93% lean. (the single packs are 85% lean, and usually the 3-packs are too, just not this time!)

So we'll see how that works out, considering that I just don't get any satiation from such low fat meats.

I may end up using those ridiculously lean packs of ground beef to make something with a ton of full fat cheese, cream cheese, or sour cream in it.
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