Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > LC Research/Media
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Mon, Jun-22-20, 00:46
Demi's Avatar
Demi Demi is offline
Posts: 22,981
 
Plan: Keto/IF
Stats: 217/191/160 Female 5'10"
BF:
Progress: 46%
Location: UK
Default Eat Like the Animals: What Nature Teaches Us About Healthy Eating

You’ve got five appetites — not just one

The trick to satisfying them is to eat like an orangutan, not a labrador, says Michael Odell


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...t-one-qzmkrn3jh

Quote:
For dinner last night Stephen J Simpson ate a vegetarian feast of chickpeas and aubergine followed by a triangle of Shropshire blue cheese and a pear. Meanwhile his friend and colleague David Raubenheimer ate smoked salmon with gazpacho soup and a slice of homemade seed bread.

“You caught us on a good night,” Simpson says. “It was healthy and filling.”

The most striking thing is that both men knew when to stop eating. Simpson, a professor at the School of Life and Environmental Sciences at the University of Sydney, and Raubenheimer, a professor of nutritional ecology, also at Sydney, are renowned nutritional scientists. They have spent more than 30 years trying to understand appetite in animals as well as humans, and their new book, Eat Like the Animals: What Nature Teaches Us about Healthy Eating, presents us with a revelation: humans don’t have just one appetite, we have five.

Which is to say, naturally, we are compelled to consume the following five nutrients in precise quantities: protein, carbohydrates, fats, sodium and calcium. Satisfying these urges — these five appetites — without consuming too many calories is, they argue, key to good health.

“For many years appetite was considered a one-dimensional thing,” Simpson says. “But the more we looked at the eating habits of animals, from locusts to mice and spiders, we realised most animals know how to seek out a nutritionally balanced diet of five elements by pure instinct.”

Raubenheimer and Simpson began with painstaking research into the eating habits of locusts. And I mean painstaking. They crawled about in the scrub following individual locusts, recording what they ate. Simpson even gave them Vaseline enemas to see if the stretch receptors in their rectums affected their meal size.

“We were pretty hands-on,” he says, sounding a bit weary.

Their discovery? Locusts do not, as is commonly supposed, omnivorously consume everything in their path. They want protein and they want it in quite exact amounts.

“Protein is the first and pre-eminent of the five appetites,” says Simpson. “And once locusts have found a healthy and plentiful source of protein, the other two essential macronutrients (carbohydrate and fats) as well as the two essential micronutrients (sodium and calcium) are quite often present too.”

More astonishing is that Simpson and Raubenheimer found the same ability to instinctively eat a nutritionally balanced diet in mice, spiders, baboons and orangutans. And in theory, humans should be the same. Our bodies have certainly evolved a clever way of ensuring that our five appetites are met. As Simpson and Raubenheimer write, the three macronutrients plus two critically important micronutrients “correspond precisely to the same nutrients that we are able to taste in foods. A most elegant solution to an otherwise impossible challenge. Our appetites have evolved to target specific flavours and guide us to eat only the things we need to survive.”

But why these particular five? Simpson and Raubenheimer give several reasons: they are needed in the diet at precise levels; foods vary in their concentrations of these nutrients; and some of these nutrients were once so rare that we needed what they describe as a “dedicated biological machinery” to seek them out. This is why gorillas eat tree bark to get enough salt and pandas migrate to get enough calcium. Finally, if we satisfy these five appetites, we should automatically get enough of all the other essential nutrients we need.

There is a caveat. If we are so well evolved, our five appetites so tightly honed, how can you explain rocketing global indices for obesity, heart disease and type 2 diabetes? That is because, in nutritional terms, humans have lost their way.

Raubenheimer and Simpson put forward what they call the protein leverage hypothesis. As per the five appetites, like most animals, humans have a daily protein target (after all it is specifically protein that allows us, through its nitrogen content, to replicate DNA and repair damaged tissue). We should eat just the right amount — not too much or too little.

However, the industrialisation of food has led to a proliferation of what the authors call “decoy protein products”. Crisps, biscuits and plenty of other processed foods dilute expensive-to-produce protein with unnecessary sugars, carbohydrates and fats. We crave our daily protein and ingest vast quantities of unnecessary calories trying to get it.

“Ultra-processed foods are skilfully designed to smell and taste like they are protein-rich, but they don’t give your body what it wants,” Simpson says.
There are other factors interrupting our search for protein. We have reduced the protein content of plants through carbon dioxide emissions and stopped eating roughage that makes us feel full.

The authors pose a stark question: if an orangutan can eat healthily without reading a diet book or knuckle-dragging its way to a Weight Watchers meeting then why on earth can’t we? Raubenheimer and Simpson insist we can — if we get back in touch with our five appetites.

“We don’t believe it’s complicated,” says raubenheimer. “You won’t need special glucose monitors and specialised data collection as some nutritionists suggest. You’ll need to do a basic calculation, shop for the right foods but then, just listen to your appetite.”

How to satisfy your five appetites

Prioritise protein

You have five appetites — your body wants protein, carbohydrates and fats plus a range of micronutrients, the most important of which are sodium and calcium. However protein is key. But how much to eat?

Use the Harris Benedict formula to work out your metabolic rate (an online calculator will help you do this). Enter your weight, height, sex, age and activity levels and the formula will give you your daily calorie needs.

About 15 per cent of this daily calorie intake should come from protein. If your daily calorie needs are 2,000 calories per day then 15 per cent of that is 300 calories. One gram of protein contains 4Kcal of energy, so you will need 75g of protein a day.

That’s about 330g of lean meat or fish. Or about 875g of chickpeas, lentils or kidney beans.

“The figure changes according to sex and activity levels and age, but that is the cornerstone of your diet,” Simpson says.

But don’t have too much
One of Raubenheimer and Simpson’s most compelling revelations is the role of protein in the struggle between the “longevity pathway” and the “growth and reproduction pathway”. These are two separate biochemical pathways that have been shown to lead to different life outcomes in humans as well as mice and other animals. Follow the first and you will live a long time. Follow the second and you will bear many children, but die young.

These pathways exist in opposition to each other and either one can be ascendant, depending on how much protein you eat.

Eat a lot of protein and your body registers that there is plentiful food and begins to create more tissue and prepare your body for reproduction. So yes, eat cheese, eggs and steak and surpass your “protein target” and you will have lots of children. You are on the “growth and reproduction pathway”, but the downside is that in this mode the body tends to downgrade cell and DNA repair. You will lead a shorter life.

“This is how we lived 200 years ago,” Raubenheimer says. “People had 14 offspring, but died young.”

However, stick to a lower protein diet and this will trigger the “longevity pathway”. Your body registers there is less food around and begins to prioritise repair and maintenance. This is the basis of the 5:2 diet and many other “intermittent fasting diets” in which periods of fasting trigger just such body preservation responses.

“Of course the sensible thing to do is regulate your protein intake to suit the stage you are in life,” Raubenheimer says.

Choose your sources wisely
It all sounds pretty straightforward. Eat your daily protein allowance and no more. But you have to be careful where you get it from. If you are a 40-year-old woman and you have calculated your daily protein target as 70g of protein, you could get that from 680g of yoghurt or cottage cheese. Or . . . 1.4kg of doughnuts.

“That, I am afraid, is the story of the global obesity crisis in a nutshell,” Simpson says. “People too often are trying to find the protein their bodies rightly crave by turning to very cleverly designed foods which taste and feel like they are satisfying you hunger, but which are delivering a calorie bomb instead.”

Marginal differences make you fat
Your protein target is about 15 per cent. But say you are having a busy time at work or travelling and so shopping or cooking healthily becomes difficult. You are snacking on junk food, which means the percentage of your diet that is protein slips to 13 per cent. Doesn’t sound much. But missing your full quota of protein might set off a disastrous chain of events.

Raubenheimer and Simpson offer this scenario in the case study of “Mary”. The proportion of her daily diet that is protein drops to 13 per cent and so she has to consume an extra 290Kcal to meet her protein target. That’s a chocolate bar a day. Within two years she will put on 26lb. Heavier people require more fuel so her protein target rises progressively.

Never burn your furniture to keep the house warm
When you’ve eaten a meal your body registers heightened blood sugar and secretes insulin, which signals that you have glucose to burn for energy.

However, if you overeat, your body will eventually be unable to process insulin. Your liver unnecessarily starts to burn muscle to make glucose, which then requires more protein. Raubenheimer and Simpson compare this needless burning and overconsumption of protein to “burning the furniture in your house to keep it warm”.

“It should never come to that. And there is worse news I’m afraid,” Raubenheimer adds. “There is evidence that altered dietary habits can be passed on epigenetically to babies. You are setting your baby on a health trajectory before it’s even born.”

And just for clarity’s sake, you should never burn your furniture to keep the house warm either.

Eat like the animals . . . but not dogs
“We found the ability to eat healthily by instinct throughout the animal world. But people often say, ‘What about my labrador?’ and it’s a fair question. Appetites evolve. We have domesticated dogs, breeding out their hunting instincts to protect ourselves and livestock. They posed a threat in a way that cats didn’t. We still encourage cats to hunt mice and so they retain a sense of their instinctive nutritional needs. Dogs have got used to sitting by the table for scraps and even evolved the ability to digest foods that they were once were unable to, like starch through the enzyme amylase. I’m afraid some labradors have become disconnected from their instinctive dietary needs, just as we have.”

Eat Like The Animals by David Raubenheimer and Stephen J Simpson is published by William Collins


Quote:
A New Scientist Best Book of 2020

How is it that a baboon and a blob of slime mould instinctively know what to eat for optimal health, balancing their protein, fat and carb intake in perfect proportions?

In new, groundbreaking research that is transforming our understanding of nutrition, animals from locusts to lions and yes, humans too, demonstrate the remarkable science behind appetite.

Appetite communicates the body's nutritional needs to the brain, and eating in accordance with your body's demands, like the animals, should ensure optimal health, but the modern fast food world wreaks havoc on this evolutionarily honed system.

In several landmark studies, Raubenheimer and Simpson prove that appetite can be hacked – we can eat for optimal health, for increased fertility or for a longer lifespan. Understanding the science of the appetite offers tremendous power in shaping our bodies and controlling our lives.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eat-Like-A.../dp/B07TZ9V9HS/
https://www.amazon.com/Eat-Like-Ani.../dp/B07TZ9V9HS/

Last edited by Demi : Mon, Jun-22-20 at 01:06.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Mon, Jun-22-20, 04:10
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
Posts: 8,541
 
Plan: Paleoish/Keto
Stats: 225/170/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 110%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Default

There is no requirement for any carb intake for humans.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Mon, Jun-22-20, 05:56
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21,174
 
Plan: Primal
Stats: 171/155/155 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Default

I stopped reading and started skimming at "vegetarian."

Labradors do quite fine on a diet of fresh meat. The fact that they are capable of seeking out junk food doesn't negate the fact that they are still essentially wolves. (Domestic dogs were reclassified as a subspecies of Canis lupus a while back.)

"Eat your protein requirement but no more."

So orangutans measure their protein intake? I know they're intelligent, but...
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Mon, Jun-22-20, 07:20
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,087
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

I prefer to eat like a cat on its natural diet of 9% carbs or less.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Mon, Jun-22-20, 08:45
BawdyWench's Avatar
BawdyWench BawdyWench is offline
Posts: 7,878
 
Plan: ADMF (500 calories)
Stats: 212/195/160 Female 5'6
BF:Too much!
Progress: 33%
Location: Rural Maine
Default

He says 15% protein, but doesn't give a percentage for fat and carbs. I can't imagine they advocate high fat, so again we have a plan that calls for the vast majority of calories to be from carbs. Exactly what caused the obesity problem we see today.

Also, this is still based on calories in and calories out. He says if "Mary" ate a chocolate bar (290 calories) every day, in 2 years she'll put on 26 pounds. But the math is wrong, or they're using some different calculation. 290 multiplied by 730 (number of days in 2 years) is 211,700. If 3500 calories equals 1 pound, you would divide 211,700 by 3500 and come up with 60.48. Why just 26 pounds? Why not 60 pounds?

We all know our bodies are not machines, and CICO doesn't work.

And why model our eating on an orangutan? They're primarily vegetarians, but when fruit becomes scarce, they have been known to hunt for meat (slow lorises, according to an article I read).

Call me skeptical on this one.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Mon, Jun-22-20, 09:46
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,520
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/150/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: NE WA
Default

Tom Naughton (Fat Head) had a post a while back about eating like a gorilla. Not pretty!

Based on my variety of animals I think we seek out what is best for us - as long as our food pickers aren't broken. My donkeys thrive on hay, brush, & tree bark, but get fat with too many treats like carrots & apples. Same for the rabbits; I've noticed that if I give them too much fresh grass, they simply don't eat it all. The cats, however, prefer meat & go hunting for it (we live in the woods with way too many squirrels & mice), and the chickens will eat anything.

My food picker is broken due to many decades of eating the wrong foods. But, having a brain, I can figure out what works best. Keeping a food diary with my weight & blood sugar has been a big help. I KNOW what works best for me. Do I always eat right? Unfortunately, no. I'm still a work in progress.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Tue, Jun-23-20, 15:14
Zei Zei is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 1,520
 
Plan: Carb reduction in general
Stats: 230/213/180 Female 5 ft 9 in
BF:
Progress: 34%
Location: Texas
Default

Dr. Ted Naiman has also pointed out how the modern diet has diluted protein content and people (and captive animals without access to wild food choices) will continue eating carbs/fats/junk/whatever until they meet their protein requirement even if it means overeating energy to do it because protein is so important. Important enough that I eat well more than 15% as daily calories. I no longer buy into the theory they alluded to about too much protein causing shorter lifespan, the concept that plentiful dietary protein overstimulates mTOR and makes us get cancer or whatever and shortens our lives. Protein builds healthy muscle, what Dr. Gabrielle Lyon refers to as the "organ of longevity," prevents frailty in the elderly etc. Protein in the proper sufficient amount does stimulate mTOR briefly to cause healthy muscle building and repair, but what turns mTOR on and runs it constantly in an unhealthy manner is carbohydrate. Unfortunately that's precisely what plant-based folks who fear the mTOR effects of animal protein are likely eating a lot of. I eat my generous serving of protein a few times a day to keep my muscles and body strong and then let mTOR turn off the rest of the time through low carb. Other than carbs, I found it intersting the body is hunting for certain amounts of things like sodium and calcium. If I focus on the things they mentioned (skipping carbs) maybe I'll see added appetite-regulation benefits.
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Tue, Jun-23-20, 21:27
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,856
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Having had a few dogs... and more than a few cats.....


I had cats that left all mice and chicks alone that lived in the house, but wicked hunters when outdoors. And rotties that never touched a cat or chicken inside the house or out in the yard. If bird or cat entered the dog run, it ran for its life..... cats slid thru the picket fence to never enter again, but not afraid of the dog in the house.

My lab endlessly ate peaches and tomatoes he picked himself.......ad lib.....

The rotties and labs tend to become fat easily...... my dogs get 6:1 fasting diet. All had long lives.
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Wed, Jun-24-20, 06:07
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 12,846
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Having had a few dogs... and more than a few cats.....


Likewise, my decades in rescue have resulted in me feeding my cats mostly canned food. They eat the grain-free dry occasionally, especially overnight. But not much.

And none of them are overweight. That's not just me, that's astonished vets who have been known to exclaim, "And none of this is fat!"

While cats are obligate carnivores, I sometimes wonder if I am, too. This was quite dramatic when I spent a "health weekend" on a writing assignment. Food was included and while the lady in charge was sympathetic to my needs, I was hungry the entire time. All around me were slim and vibrant people chowing down on things I had to avoid. Different gene patterns, I am certain.

Also, every time I try to reduce my protein to match those calculators, I get hungry, my health status decreases, and I abandon the experiment. I get along a LOT better by reducing my carb content with the goal of "vanishingly small."
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Wed, Jun-24-20, 07:43
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,087
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
And none of them are overweight. That's not just me, that's astonished vets who have been known to exclaim, "And none of this is fat!"
My cats (all rescues) have eaten a grain-free canned "Catkins" diet and stayed in the 7-9 lb range. The vet techs often mention that they are "tiny", even though they are "perfect" on the body composition scale and the size of all cats I ever saw in the 1960s. Now, the average cat is overweight or obese, so people think it is "normal". I also think the grain and junk diets, which include most "prescription" diets, are what has led to so much dental disease, diabetes, pancreatitis, thyroid & liver disease, etc., in domestic cats.

Planning food intake based on percentages is not the way to go. 15% protein may be ok as 75g in a 2000-calorie diet for a small person, but how many small people can eat 2000 cals/day unless they are athletes, but most athletes need more protein than the minimum. Most small people on diets eat 1200 cals or less (I did at 5'6" with a medium-large frame), and 15% of that is only 45g protein, which may be the RDA for someone their size, but RDAs are the minimum to prevent disease, not the optimum amount. And having been a vegetarian for a few years in the past, I found that my fingernails & hair were extremely brittle and I was exhausted most of the time on so little protein, and I was religiously combining proteins to make sure that I got them all when only eating plants. Even when combined perfectly, I am not convinced that plant protein is used by human bodies as well as animal protein. My guess is ~50% based on how exhausted I felt. If I doubled my plant protein, I had more energy, but that plant protein came with more carbs and I gained or failed to lose weight.

I prefer to first set my protein goal (>80g/day and >30g per meal keeps me feeling full and energetic), then my carb goal (<30g/day and <12g/meal) and let the fat and calories fall where they may. My protein percent typically falls in the 18-40% range. >2 years ago I aimed for 20-25% protein and 5% net carbs, which meant I ate more fat and depleted my on-board pantry (body fat) slowly or not at all. If I drop below 80g/day protein (while IFing), my fingernails start chipping and flaking, so I make a point to eat more protein when having only one or two meals a day.

200 years ago people had 14 kids & died young because they did not have access to birth control and typically died of infections or accidents. People including doctors did not even wash their hands before delivering babies because they didn't understand germs. My ancestors alive 200 yrs ago were mostly farmers, teachers, stone masons & miners. Many of the men lived to be 65-90 (living in areas of plentiful fish and game); the farmers had 12-14 kids, but by 2-3 wives due to complications of childbirth and the need for a new wife to care for the motherless children.

Last edited by deirdra : Wed, Jun-24-20 at 09:08.
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Wed, Jun-24-20, 17:27
sheryl2020 sheryl2020 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 29
 
Plan: Target 100
Stats: 174/174/140 Female 5'3”
BF:
Progress: 0%
Default

I have this book. I was excited at first until I skimmed the book and came to the chapter where they criticize low carbing and sang the praises of healthy whole grains. Such a disappointment.
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Thu, Jun-25-20, 02:43
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 643
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 200/174.5/175 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 102%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sheryl2020
I have this book. I was excited at first until I skimmed the book and came to the chapter where they criticize low carbing and sang the praises of healthy whole grains. Such a disappointment.


What book is that?
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Thu, Jun-25-20, 05:21
sheryl2020 sheryl2020 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 29
 
Plan: Target 100
Stats: 174/174/140 Female 5'3”
BF:
Progress: 0%
Default

The book is titled Eat Like The Animals, mentioned in the bottom of the first post.
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Thu, Jun-25-20, 05:27
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 12,846
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
Even when combined perfectly, I am not convinced that plant protein is used by human bodies as well as animal protein.


My own experience bears this out. One thing the quoted article gets right, (that I also see with cats,) is that our bodies will be hungry until we get enough nutrients. This is how I explain the paradoxical craving for foods which turn out not to be good for us.

Since these foods "don't work" to supply us with nutrients, the body assumes this is the only foods we have around. (Why else are we eating junk? This is an evolutionary position, not one modeled on the modern world.) So, like me with vegetable protein, the body "tells me" to eat more of the inadequate food, in an attempt to get nutrition from it.

It also explains how eating Keto, focusing on animal foods my body gets along with, has eliminated so many cravings. I'm hungry, and then I eat good food, and then I'm not hungry any more.

This is my body working as it should.
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Thu, Jun-25-20, 11:05
Zei Zei is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 1,520
 
Plan: Carb reduction in general
Stats: 230/213/180 Female 5 ft 9 in
BF:
Progress: 34%
Location: Texas
Default

If consuming exclusively plant protein the amount must be doubled compared with animal protein to achieve similar muscle-building effects due to low leucine content among other things like being tougher to digest due to plant-protective anti-nutrients, fiber, etc. Since even the best whole food plant protein sources come naturally paired with abundant energy as carbs or plant fats, getting sufficient protein without too much energy is a problem which could require significant supplementation with concentrated plant protein products (if tolerated) by those who don't desire to use any animal products such as whey. I ceased being vegetarian years ago due to the high carbohydrate load which was pushing me into diabetes and now prefer a very low carb diet based on animal foods. My weight and blood sugars are better and I feel better.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 23:48.


Copyright © 2000-2020 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.