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  #46   ^
Old Wed, Apr-22-20, 08:20
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 13,068
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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I had the same thing several people in my office had, mid-December. While I work and live in isolated areas, my job requires interaction with our abundance of visitors from all over the world.

I have long wondered about that bout, which made me sicker than I have been for a long time. It resulted in a dry cough that seriously messed with my sleep and eventually drove me to the doctor. Who did no testing. With a little codeine cough syrup I got on top of it, but it took a week or two more to really consider it over. And many of us had raspy voices which lingered for weeks more.

I'm not pursuing testing because there doesn't seem to be a good one yet. And I'm certainly NOT relaxing any precautions. But a little research indicates that health experts are not ruling it out.

Which means they think it's possible.
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  #47   ^
Old Wed, Apr-22-20, 11:22
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Posts: 7,490
 
Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: NE Florida
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A friend of mine and his wife went on a Caribbean cruise early in March. But it was actually after reports began to surface of cases of Covid-19 on cruise ships. I asked him if, under the circumstances, he really wanted to go! But of course at that time cruise ships were not cancelling anything and he would have had to forfeit all his money if he'd cancelled at the last minute so he said that of course they were going! So they went, and got home March 9.

On March 10 he came to a board meeting at my house for the art guild of which I am president and he is the treasurer. We had a big opening reception for a show at a prestigious local gallery on March 12 so had to form last minute plans among other things. So he was at my house about 3 hours that night.

Then the next night, March 11, he came over to my house again so I could co-sign all the checks to give out to the award winners for the show.

Even by then there were warnings to social distance and keep 6 feet apart. I was even nervous about going to this big reception on March 12 where I expected a pretty big attendance and if I had not been President, and supposed to give a little talk welcoming everyone, I might well have stayed home as at least one of our board members did.

But on the 12th the treasurer texted me that he was SICK - had a slight fever, feeling drained and washed out, was coughing, so decided he'd better not attend the reception. EEK!

I did go, feeling I was a bit obligated, planning to keep my social distance which turned out to be impossible as various guild members all ran up and gave me big hugs before I could even begin to stop them!

And over the next couple days I did keep in touch with my friend. Several other board members who had attended the meeting at my house where worried too. But by the third day he said he felt fine again and has been fine since.

Was it just a very mild case of Covid-19? No way to know of course. No one else got sick, either from the board meeting or from the art show reception. I certainly didn't get sick at all and I'm sure if I was exposed to the Covid-19 virus I'd probably die.

And then after all my worries about going to the art reception March 12, the very next day, March 13, the gallery closed down and shut its doors because of the virus. Our show is still hanging in the gallery but of course no one can go in and see the show.

However the gallery did post a virtual tour and I have two paintings in the show - one of a pair of bald eagles and one of hayrolls in a field:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-0...eature=youtu.be
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  #48   ^
Old Wed, Apr-22-20, 11:40
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 12,457
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/194/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig
A friend of mine and his wife went on a Caribbean cruise early in March. But it was actually after reports began to surface of cases of Covid-19 on cruise ships. I asked him if, under the circumstances, he really wanted to go! But of course at that time cruise ships were not cancelling anything and he would have had to forfeit all his money if he'd cancelled at the last minute so he said that of course they were going! So they went, and got home March 9.

On March 10 he came to a board meeting at my house for the art guild of which I am president and he is the treasurer. We had a big opening reception for a show at a prestigious local gallery on March 12 so had to form last minute plans among other things. So he was at my house about 3 hours that night.

Then the next night, March 11, he came over to my house again so I could co-sign all the checks to give out to the award winners for the show.

Even by then there were warnings to social distance and keep 6 feet apart. I was even nervous about going to this big reception on March 12 where I expected a pretty big attendance and if I had not been President, and supposed to give a little talk welcoming everyone, I might well have stayed home as at least one of our board members did.

But on the 12th the treasurer texted me that he was SICK - had a slight fever, feeling drained and washed out, was coughing, so decided he'd better not attend the reception. EEK!

I did go, feeling I was a bit obligated, planning to keep my social distance which turned out to be impossible as various guild members all ran up and gave me big hugs before I could even begin to stop them!

And over the next couple days I did keep in touch with my friend. Several other board members who had attended the meeting at my house where worried too. But by the third day he said he felt fine again and has been fine since.

Was it just a very mild case of Covid-19? No way to know of course. No one else got sick, either from the board meeting or from the art show reception. I certainly didn't get sick at all and I'm sure if I was exposed to the Covid-19 virus I'd probably die.

And then after all my worries about going to the art reception March 12, the very next day, March 13, the gallery closed down and shut its doors because of the virus. Our show is still hanging in the gallery but of course no one can go in and see the show.

However the gallery did post a virtual tour and I have two paintings in the show - one of a pair of bald eagles and one of hayrolls in a field:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-0...eature=youtu.be


Such gorgeous paintings, all of them. It must have been so hard to judge since they are all so beautiful. Thank goodness it was videoed so everyone could enjoy them after the gallery closed.
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  #49   ^
Old Wed, Apr-22-20, 15:22
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,853
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/230/200 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 45%
Location: Massachusetts
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More and more videos are popping up on youtube from a variety of sources. Unbeleivable the number pointing at obesity and SAD as the breaking point.

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Wed, Apr-22-20 at 18:44.
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  #50   ^
Old Wed, Apr-22-20, 15:40
doreen T's Avatar
doreen T doreen T is offline
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Posts: 36,486
 
Plan: DANDR '92
Stats: 241/170/140 Female 165 cm
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: Eastern ON, Canada
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hello everyone

Let's get this discussion back on topic about how obesity is - or isn't - a factor in COVID-19 etiology. For folks who've been away, or maybe haven't had the chance yet .. please review our policy re - COVID-19 coronavirus discussion at Active Low-Carber Forum .. posted March 17.


Thanks all

Doreen
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  #51   ^
Old Wed, Apr-22-20, 16:58
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,591
 
Plan: LC/DrWestman/P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/175/168 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/30%/25%
Progress: 88%
Location: NC
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To get back onto obesity, the nephew of a classmate (50 years ago so he isn't young either) was released from the hospital after one month of touch and go recovery from CoVid. In the heartwarming video of his release to a rehab facility...the patient looked normal weight...only to learn in the comments that he had lost 65 pounds in that one month!
One story....an obese man was treated for severe complications, but interesting that stored fat energy was used during a long fight and recovery. Maybe the obesity helped him survive. ?? Maybe the virus is so severe the weight loss could not be prevented (even with the usual fluid food replacements??) but he looked pretty good other than on a stretcher due to being in bed for a month.

Latest JAMA article on 5700 patients in NY. April 22, 2020

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...article/2765184

Presenting Characteristics, Comorbidities, and Outcomes Among 5700 Patients Hospitalized With COVID-19 in the New York City Area

Quote:
Key Points
Question What are the characteristics, clinical presentation, and outcomes of patients hospitalized with coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) in the US?

Findings In this case series that included 5700 patients hospitalized with COVID-19 in the New York City area, the most common comorbidities were hypertension, obesity, and diabetes. Among patients who were discharged or died (n = 2634), 14.2% were treated in the intensive care unit, 12.2% received invasive mechanical ventilation, 3.2% were treated with kidney replacement therapy, and 21% died.

Meaning This study provides characteristics and early outcomes of patients hospitalized with COVID-19 in the New York City area.


More in the study, but obesity was 42% and diabetes 34%. Median age 63, 60% male.


More mainstream media articles about this today. NBC: https://apple.news/AU7uSStGrSN--Hmfh-Ef4DA

Last edited by JEY100 : Thu, Apr-23-20 at 05:39.
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  #52   ^
Old Thu, Apr-23-20, 05:41
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 13,068
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
Observing the dangers of obesity is not fat shaming


True. While acknowledging the people pointing out the prejudices, especially in medical care, are right. Doctors do behave in ridiculous ways when they attribute every symptom to a person's weight, and miss important diagnoses as a result.

I also cannot argue with anyone who supports treating our fellow human beings with dignity and respect despite appearance, which is another important issue.

Still, having followed this movement for years now, I've seen how people in it who do lose weight are then shamed in turn. Which undercuts their own message, and reveals the dilemma that we know so well: doing everything possible -- to lose weight, control diabetes, reach some plateau of health -- while "doing everything right."

But now we know that is because the nutritional advice we've been given is wrong.

Excess weight might be benign under some circumstances -- we don't know. It's the key to survival in animals who hibernate, which are mammals from ground squirrels to black bears not that distant from ourselves.

Back when harvest time was "putting on weight time" when we put in that reserve to survive epidemics and famine: sure! This is was obviously such an important skill that we all still carry those genes to this day What if fasting seems like such a miraculous game changer because it's an important part of the overweight cycle, should we find ourselves on it? Many of us found IF to be an incredible barrier buster; maybe because it triggers this cycle, which was meant to be a cycle: not an endless harvest time.

Is it no longer necessary, and thus, harmful? Like carrying 30 extra pounds is okay but 70 is not? Is there really a difference between visceral fat and fat storage and if so, should that be a health marker?

Because right now, it's not. I know I was far healthier at 165 than I was at 220 and discovered low carbing. But then, even without gaining weight, I got an autoimmune flare which indicated I had messed up my immune system anyway. Turned out food sensitivities played a huge part in that, for both health and weight.

But... if we look at obesity as a large-scale marker of metabolic health in a population, it is a signal, just like blood pressure, blood sugar, and CRP indicators build a picture of metabolic dysfunction. And from the beginning, these are the kind of "co-morbid conditions" which signaled trouble with this virus.
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  #53   ^
Old Thu, Apr-23-20, 06:20
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,591
 
Plan: LC/DrWestman/P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/175/168 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/30%/25%
Progress: 88%
Location: NC
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TIME titled their story on the JAMA study:
Almost Every Hospitalized Coronavirus Patient Has Another Underlying Health Issue, According to a Study of New York Patients

88% had MORE than One co-morbidity
And 19% had Morbid Obesity (>35 BMI)

Both obesity and morbid obesity are a % of 4170 patients admitted (Weights are from existing Electronic Records. None were available for the other 1,530 )


https://time.com/5825485/coronavirus-risk-factors/

Last edited by JEY100 : Thu, Apr-23-20 at 09:19.
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  #54   ^
Old Thu, Apr-23-20, 08:01
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is online now
Posts: 3,493
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
True. While acknowledging the people pointing out the prejudices, especially in medical care, are right. Doctors do behave in ridiculous ways when they attribute every symptom to a person's weight, and miss important diagnoses as a result.

I also cannot argue with anyone who supports treating our fellow human beings with dignity and respect despite appearance, which is another important issue.

Still, having followed this movement for years now, I've seen how people in it who do lose weight are then shamed in turn. Which undercuts their own message, and reveals the dilemma that we know so well: doing everything possible -- to lose weight, control diabetes, reach some plateau of health -- while "doing everything right."

But now we know that is because the nutritional advice we've been given is wrong.

Excess weight might be benign under some circumstances -- we don't know. It's the key to survival in animals who hibernate, which are mammals from ground squirrels to black bears not that distant from ourselves.

Back when harvest time was "putting on weight time" when we put in that reserve to survive epidemics and famine: sure! This is was obviously such an important skill that we all still carry those genes to this day What if fasting seems like such a miraculous game changer because it's an important part of the overweight cycle, should we find ourselves on it? Many of us found IF to be an incredible barrier buster; maybe because it triggers this cycle, which was meant to be a cycle: not an endless harvest time.

Is it no longer necessary, and thus, harmful? Like carrying 30 extra pounds is okay but 70 is not? Is there really a difference between visceral fat and fat storage and if so, should that be a health marker?

Because right now, it's not. I know I was far healthier at 165 than I was at 220 and discovered low carbing. But then, even without gaining weight, I got an autoimmune flare which indicated I had messed up my immune system anyway. Turned out food sensitivities played a huge part in that, for both health and weight.

But... if we look at obesity as a large-scale marker of metabolic health in a population, it is a signal, just like blood pressure, blood sugar, and CRP indicators build a picture of metabolic dysfunction. And from the beginning, these are the kind of "co-morbid conditions" which signaled trouble with this virus.

The simple message is to not focus on obesity as either a cause or a disease. It is purely a symptom that many following very misguided advice cannot control effectively until lifestyle changes are adopted. Being a symptom, obesity must be taken seriously as a sign and a guide in determining the type of treatment that is effective. Let's understand it better and never ignore the information it provides for regaining health.
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  #55   ^
Old Thu, Apr-23-20, 08:37
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,282
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I think obesity can cause disease. The fact that diagnosing "obesity" isn't the same as diagnosing "disease" is sort of like the way diagnosing infection with CoVid isn't the same as diagnosing respiratory disease. It can cause it--that doesn't mean it will always cause it. But I do think it does increase risk when considered on a population basis as opposed to an individual basis. So it's fine when trying to deal with "why are people in X county getting so much diabetes?" but you have to behave differently with any one individual.
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  #56   ^
Old Thu, Apr-23-20, 08:49
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 14,853
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/230/200 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 45%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I think obesity can cause disease. The fact that diagnosing "obesity" isn't the same as diagnosing "disease" is sort of like the way diagnosing infection with CoVid isn't the same as diagnosing respiratory disease. It can cause it--that doesn't mean it will always cause it. But I do think it does increase risk when considered on a population basis as opposed to an individual basis. So it's fine when trying to deal with "why are people in X county getting so much diabetes?" but you have to behave differently with any one individual.



Obesity is a symptom of the underlying disease. Which when it progresses inflammation becomes heart disease and diabetes and everyrhing in between.
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  #57   ^
Old Thu, Apr-23-20, 10:59
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 14,282
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I buy into the idea of the personal fat threshold--a person can be quite sick, but not very fat, but still be beyond their personal capacity for safe sequestration of fat that protects from ectopic--organ, visceral etc.--fat storage. It's fairly robust in animal models that decreasing ability to store fat subcutaneously can lead to these things, and diabetes, and increasing ability to store fat subcutaneously is protective--but it's still going past what can be stored subcutaneously being an issue.
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  #58   ^
Old Thu, Apr-23-20, 11:41
jschwab jschwab is offline
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Posts: 6,378
 
Plan: Atkins72/Paleo/NoGrain/IF
Stats: 285/220/200 Female 5 feet 5.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 76%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear

Because right now, it's not. I know I was far healthier at 165 than I was at 220 and discovered low carbing. But then, even without gaining weight, I got an autoimmune flare which indicated I had messed up my immune system anyway. Turned out food sensitivities played a huge part in that, for both health and weight.

But... if we look at obesity as a large-scale marker of metabolic health in a population, it is a signal, just like blood pressure, blood sugar, and CRP indicators build a picture of metabolic dysfunction. And from the beginning, these are the kind of "co-morbid conditions" which signaled trouble with this virus.


This is where I get confused and annoyed. By all measures, I am healthier at 220 than I was at 180 which was my lowest weight on low carb. My running times are better at this weight, overall health, immunity, resistance to fatigue, better sleep, etc. I'm stronger. Heck, at an even higher weight I had my best race ever and I find it harder to do squats at a lower weight than 20 pounds ago.

I totally agree that as a large-scale marker, it's very good. And I am decidedly way more unhealthy at 270 than I am at 200 pounds. I just think it's very complicated and individual and our paradigms related to weight don't like complicated and individual.
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  #59   ^
Old Thu, Apr-23-20, 13:58
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,119
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Obesity is a symptom of the underlying disease. Which when it progresses inflammation becomes heart disease and diabetes and everything in between.
I think the road to obesity can also start due to simply eating foods that are not right for your metabolism & immune system. In my case, the last 15 lbs that I could never lose miraculously came off when I finally gave up dairy protein (after I had gone sugar, grain & legume free). Dairy proteins are probably why I put on my first 15 lbs as a mid-teenager, when skim milk & cottage cheese were classic diet foods. Being chubby had me starving on various 1000 calorie diets, which just caused me to binge on junk. And junk begets cravings for more junk, until you become obese and possibly diabetic and hypertensive. Or learn to eliminate the foods that screw up your metabolism.
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  #60   ^
Old Fri, Apr-24-20, 04:49
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,591
 
Plan: LC/DrWestman/P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/175/168 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/30%/25%
Progress: 88%
Location: NC
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An article from The Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...id=tmg_share_em (Must subscribe)

Quote:
Interesting piece from Dr Malhotra in the uk press today

We need to talk about the uncomfortable link between obesity and coronavirus

💥 Former MEP and my very good friend Alexandra Phillips has written a brilliant article in the telegraph that we now need a national diet campaign to save lives from Covid 19. Her mum has been on the Pioppi Diet ( low carb Mediterranean) for 3 weeks, has lost 3kg and is close to coming off her blood pressure pills!!

For a month we have been looking at international stats on Covid-19 trying to piece together the puzzle. Men are worse affected than women, older people are more likely to suffer and those with underlying health issues are especially vulnerable.

The same ailments keep emerging: heart disease, diabetes and high blood pressure. Data from the first 2204 Covid ICU admissions show 73% were overweight, a condition linked to those diseases. The puzzle is not as difficult to piece together as you might think.
The scientific journal Nature stated on 2nd April ď​Type 2 diabetes mellitus and hypertension are the most common comorbidities in patients with coronavirus infections. Emerging evidence demonstrates an important direct metabolic and endocrine mechanistic link to the viral disease process.Ē

Not only does carrying more visceral weight put greater pressure on the lungs, excess body fat causes the immune system to dysfunction, instigating the cytokine storm that floods lungs causing pneumonia-like complications.
For decades successive governments have been negligent in tackling obesity head on. Whether itís subservience to the food and drink industry that contributes ​£28.2bn to the economy, or an aversion to becoming a Nanny State, obesity has ballooned without concerted intervention. ​More than half of the British diet is ultra-processed food with 60% of the population overweight.​ The OECD​ places the UK the sixth most obese country in the world. South Korea, at the bottom of the table, has a far lower death rate from Covid-19. Approximately only one in eight Brits are metabolically healthy. The Governmentís own statistics say ​obesity causes over 30,000 deaths each year, cuts an average 9 years off life and makes an individual 2.5 times more likely to develop high blood pressure and 5 times more likely to develop type 2 diabetes. The Department of Health estimates the cost of obesity to society is £27 billion a year, with annual spend on treatment greater than that spent on the police, fire service and judicial system combined.

During normal times, a government might shy away from interfering in the contents of peopleís fridges. But we have a national health emergency, and for once, a captive audience. Yet without bankable advice to physically prepare for the virus, supermarket shelves are devoid of flour and sugar while Mr Kipling has reported an astronomical sales surge.

A controlled diet can start to reverse high blood pressure and type 2 diabetes in weeks. I can vouch for that. I am whipping a septuagenarian parent into shape, and in three weeks, they have lost theee kilograms and have registered a marked change in blood pressure that should lead to coming off medication.
For the first time in living history, the public are stuck at home cooking for themselves while glued to the airwaves desperate to know how to protect themselves. Changing habits is said to take three weeks, the time it takes to see improvement in metabolic health following significant dietary change. We have at least three weeks more of lockdown to come.
Not only would a massive public campaign on diet save lives from Covid19, it would change the course of our nationís health forever.

Last edited by JEY100 : Fri, Apr-24-20 at 05:18.
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