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  #1   ^
Old Fri, Apr-17-20, 10:53
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Posts: 7,490
 
Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: NE Florida
Default Covid-19 does not discriminate by body weight

Interesting article since many of us here still fall into the overweight or obese category:
https://www.wired.com/story/covid-1...by-body-weight/

Some quotes:

Quote:
In recent weeks, many news outlets—and a few scientific journals—have sent the same frightening message. A study posted on a preprint server last weekend by researchers at New York University provided fodder for the latest round of this reporting: “Obesity appears to be one of the biggest risk factors related to Covid-19 hospitalizations and critical illness,” Newsweek claimed on Tuesday. Yet this rhetoric is based on flawed and limited evidence, which only exacerbates the stigma that larger-bodied people already face in society and our health care system. That stigma is what truly jeopardizes their health, not weight itself—a fact that’s only more important to consider in the midst of this pandemic...

Where did the CDC get the idea that people with a BMI of 40 or above are at greater risk in the first place? It’s unclear. A CDC press contact didn’t respond to a request for comment, but the peer-reviewed evidence that was available at the time the agency made that pronouncement generally indicated weight was not a risk factor. Nearly all published data from China (where Covid-19 has been studied since first being discovered in December 2019) shows that high BMI alone isn’t associated with developing the disease or with having a critical outcome. In most Chinese studies, high BMI doesn’t even make the list of preexisting conditions among Covid-19 patients—despite the fact that one-third of China’s population has a BMI in the “overweight” or “obese" categories,...

Indeed, multiple studies have found that simply reading a news article about the so-called “obesity epidemic” induces weight stigma and increases the expression of anti-fat attitudes among participants. Reports about the pandemic that name body size as a risk factor likely do the same. “I suspect that this news coverage constantly linking weight to Covid-19 risk is also heightening anti-fat bias,” says Jeffrey Hunger, a researcher who studies the effects of weight stigma and other forms of discrimination at Miami University of Ohio. “This constant barrage of media coverage linking weight to Covid-19 might lead to blaming individuals for actually contracting it.” And from my interactions with dozens of higher-weight clients, readers, and podcast listeners, it’s clear that many people are feeling blamed and shamed right now. “In a lot of ways it does make you feel like it’s your fault,” says Cox, who is at a higher weight. That feeling of self-blame just worsens the already difficult situation of living through a global pandemic. “There's an extra mental and emotional toll that it takes,” Cox says.
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  #2   ^
Old Fri, Apr-17-20, 11:29
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,853
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/230/200 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 45%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Try this fir mire details Beyond the shortsighted doctors.

https://www.europeanscientist.com/e...nt-in-the-room/
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  #3   ^
Old Fri, Apr-17-20, 11:49
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,493
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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This is a good part of the problem. Observing the dangers of obesity is not fat shaming, and that accusation plays to today's current need for "safe zones" so as to not hurt feelings. This tendency squelches the transparent observations of what constitutes metabolic health and identifying the root causes of an unhealthy metabolism. Treating obesity as a disease unto itself is wrong, and it must be treated as a symptom of a health issue. Being able to confirm protocols to reduce obesity is the correct response; however, we in a world of competing interests dealing with so much information distortion means that it's extremely difficult to understand what information is true and what information supports a hidden agenda. Unfortunately, this reinforces the need for people to take control and learn which lifestyle measures result in improved health. None of this other stuff helps one iota.
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  #4   ^
Old Fri, Apr-17-20, 11:54
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 14,282
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I saw one story looking at elevated blood pressure and liver enzymes that are usually high with fatty liver being strongly predictive of a poor outcome--those cluster with overweight, but overweight isn't really necessary. Personally, my blood pressure went from sort of high to normal just switching to a low carb diet. With weight loss it went a bit lower, but the diet switch itself seems to have done most of the work, before there was much weight lost.

So maybe they said, A is a risk factor for B, B is a risk factor for C, so A is a risk factor for C. Which isn't always something you can get away with, if ever.
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Apr-17-20, 12:18
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Posts: 7,490
 
Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: NE Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Try this fir mire details Beyond the shortsighted doctors.

https://www.europeanscientist.com/e...nt-in-the-room/
Yeah, it seems like no matter what one person claims someone else will contradict it - just like diets! And I do think it's very true that if you are obese doctors tend to view that as the reason behind all your health conditions, without considering that their might be another underlying cause.
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Apr-17-20, 14:02
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Posts: 12,457
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/194/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig
Yeah, it seems like no matter what one person claims someone else will contradict it - just like diets! And I do think it's very true that if you are obese doctors tend to view that as the reason behind all your health conditions, without considering that their might be another underlying cause.



That's a good one Debbie!!
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Apr-17-20, 14:58
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,493
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merpig

Perfect illustration of the issue . . . .
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  #8   ^
Old Sat, Apr-18-20, 10:37
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 8,094
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/226/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 93%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

We had an interesting turn of events at our office a few days ago. One of our staff members recently had the Covid-19 antibody test done for both herself and her son (who also works at our plant). Both tested positive, meaning that - if the test is accurate - they've both had coronavirus. Back in January when this person was sick most of the 10 or 12 people in our office were also sick with the same or similar bug (including me). I had a mild but consistent cough for 2 or 3 weeks. I had a 3 day period of a near constant headache for which I took OTC meds -- something I only do as a last resort. This was happening at the time when news was just starting to break that the virus was spreading all over the world. I thought at the time "Is this the corona virus that we all have?" But there were few confirmed cases in the US and the illness just seemed like a bad cold. Most of us never missed a day of work.

Now news is coming out that the virus may have been spreading earlier than what was first believed. I was in NYC for 4 days in mid December, packed in with all the New Yorkers & tourists on trains, ferries, subways, elevators and crowded streets to see holiday decorations near Rockefeller Center, the 9/11 museum, Ellis Island, Statue of Liberty, etc. Maybe it was me who brought the virus back to my office. I have not been confirmed to have had the virus, but I think it is quite possible that I have had it. I'd like to have the antibody test done.

I talked about this Covid-19 issue with my two daughters that I met up with on our New York City trip. If I was exposed to the virus on that trip then they were likely exposed, too. My daughter living in Norfolk has been sick since our trip. My daughter (who lives in Oregon) doesn't recall being sick since the trip, but she sent me a link to an NIH study just launched looking for volunteers to be tested for the coronavirus antibodies. Both she and I signed up for it. Hopefully we can get tested. FYI: Here's the link.

NIH begins study to quantify undetected cases of coronavirus infection

On the news last night I heard that they've done widespread antibody testing in one county in California. I don't recall the exact numbers but something like 40,000 people tested positive for the antibody. Before this they'd had only 800 confirmed cases in the county. So that's a 50 to 1 ratio of people who've had and recovered from the virus undetected. Given those results I would imagine that we are going to discover that millions of us have already been exposed. It just may have happened before testing of anybody not seriously ill became available.

I did speak in depth with the lady in our office that had the positive antibody test. I didn't realize that she had actually become quite ill back in January. She was out sick for more than a week and did end up going to the hospital as a result. At the time they did not suspect coronavirus and were just treating it like a serious cold or flu. It was her doctor that later decided to have her and her family tested for the antibody. As he learned more about this virus he had a hunch that he had already seen it. He was right.

As related to this topic: this person at our office who got the sickest is older, quite obese and borderline diabetic. She fits the characteristics of those who tend to have more problems with this illness. The others in my office that were sick were all younger and/or lean and 'apparently' healthier. As for me I'm convinced that my current WOE may have saved me from a much more disastrous fate. I am not lean. In fact I am technically obese. But I am quite metabolically healthy. I think that is what this all boils down to. I hope that honest analysis of this pandemic will ultimately shed light on the true root cause risk factors for poor outcomes with is virus. Poor diet has to be one of the big ones.

Last edited by khrussva : Sat, Apr-18-20 at 10:55.
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  #9   ^
Old Sat, Apr-18-20, 10:53
HappyLC HappyLC is offline
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Posts: 1,872
 
Plan: Generic low carb
Stats: 212/167/135 Female 66.75
BF:
Progress: 58%
Location: Long Island, NY
Default

I was sent a PCRM video from a vegan friend this morning that said 18% of New Yorkers who died from COVID-19 had high cholesterol. So I googled and found that almost 40% of New Yorkers have been diagnosed as having high cholesterol. Does that mean that higher cholesterol is somehow protective? (Not the message PCRM was trying to send, I'm sure. )
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Apr-18-20, 11:00
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,493
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Thanks, Ken. I just sent the NIH an enrollment request for the study. I'm convinced that widespread antibody and active virus testing must be done to defeat this. If someone tests positive for the active virus, it's an easy call to self-quarantine to prevent spreading the virus. There's a lab called ARCpoint that is also offering antibody testing, but the one near me did not have the test kits as of this past week. We need tests to be widely available to achieve this. I'm hoping we can get a good number of the two available tests to help us intelligently defeat this and enable those having no or low risk to get back to regular activities, and alert those who need to be isolated.
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, Apr-18-20, 11:10
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,591
 
Plan: LC/DrWestman/P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/175/168 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/30%/25%
Progress: 88%
Location: NC
Default

NPR back on the the weight question.

Who's Hit Hardest By COVID-19? Why Obesity, Stress And Race All Matter

https://www.npr.org/sections/health...race-all-matter

Quote:
As data emerges on the spectrum of symptoms caused by COVID-19, it's clear that people with chronic health conditions are being hit harder.

While many people experience mild illness, 89% of people with COVID-19 who were sick enough to be hospitalized had at least one chronic condition. About half had high blood pressure and obesity, according to data from the CDC. And about a third had diabetes and a third had cardiovascular disease. So, what explains this?

"Obesity is a marker for a number of other problems," explains Dr. Aaron Carroll, a public health researcher at the Indiana University School of Medicine. It's increasingly common for those who develop obesity to develop diabetes and other conditions, as well. So, one reason COVID-19 is taking its toll on people who have obesity is that their overall health is often compromised.

But does obesity specifically affect the immune system? Perhaps.

Prior research has shown that people with obesity are less protected by the flu vaccine. They tend to get sicker from the respiratory disease even if they've been immunized. In fact, researchers have found that as people gain excess weight, their metabolism changes and this shift can make the immune system less effective at fighting off viruses.

"What we see with obesity is that these [immune] cells don't function as well,' says Melinda Beck, a health researcher at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Basically, she explains, obesity throws off the fuel sources that immune cells need to function. "The [immune cells] are not using the right kinds of fuels," Beck says. And, as a result, the condition of obesity seems to "impair that critical immune response [needed] to deal with either the virus infection or [the ability] to make a robust response to a vaccine."......more at link
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Apr-18-20, 12:03
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,282
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Larger numbers having had the virus suggests lower mortality as a percentage--but I wonder what it says about true current prevalence?

I'm a little suspicious about the recruiting method;

Quote:
The study in Santa Clara County recruited participants largely using Facebook ads targeted by zip code to sample various parts of the community. The study tested 3,330 adults and children.
"They had about five different tents set up and you just kind of drove through and they pricked your finger, took a blood sample and took down your information," one of those participants, Tony Huston, told CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta on his podcast, "Coronavirus: Fact vs. Fiction."


Just as testing for the virus itself can be non-representative where it's rationed for those who need it most--people who are sick or otherwise likely to be infected--choosing to participate in the study gives another self-selection bias--just about everybody probably wants to know if they've developed antibodies, but people with good reason to suspect they might have been sick with corona may be more likely to go get tested. Needs more randomization.
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  #13   ^
Old Sat, Apr-18-20, 12:25
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Posts: 4,855
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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The article I read about this antibody study mentioned the problem with the method of recruitment. The data should only be treated as suggestive.
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  #14   ^
Old Sat, Apr-18-20, 13:04
Zei Zei is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 1,554
 
Plan: Carb reduction in general
Stats: 230/185/180 Female 5 ft 9 in
BF:
Progress: 90%
Location: Texas
Default

Quote:
While many people experience mild illness, 89% of people with COVID-19 who were sick enough to be hospitalized had at least one chronic condition. About half had high blood pressure and obesity, according to data from the CDC. And about a third had diabetes and a third had cardiovascular disease. So, what explains this?

Metabolic disease explains this. These are all symptoms of metabolic disorder.
Quote:
"Obesity is a marker for a number of other problems," explains Dr. Aaron Carroll, a public health researcher at the Indiana University School of Medicine. It's increasingly common for those who develop obesity to develop diabetes and other conditions, as well. So, one reason COVID-19 is taking its toll on people who have obesity is that their overall health is often compromised.

No, obesity is a symptom of the diabetes, not something else that just happened along at the same time. And yes, people who show signs of compromised health from metabolic illness, such as obesity, are apparently at greater risk.
Quote:
But does obesity specifically affect the immune system? Perhaps.

Because the obesity is a sign they're sick and that the immune system may not be functioning too well. As shown in the following:
Quote:
Prior research has shown that people with obesity are less protected by the flu vaccine. They tend to get sicker from the respiratory disease even if they've been immunized.

I see a possibility here of reverse causation:
Quote:
In fact, researchers have found that as people gain excess weight, their metabolism changes and this shift can make the immune system less effective at fighting off viruses.

My thought is the increase in unhealthy metabolism changes drive the weight gain and immune system compromise.
Quote:
"What we see with obesity is that these [immune] cells don't function as well,' says Melinda Beck, a health researcher at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

But again I see in her explanation the potential of reversed causality:
Quote:
Basically, she explains, obesity throws off the fuel sources that immune cells need to function. "The [immune cells] are not using the right kinds of fuels," Beck says. And, as a result, the condition of obesity seems to "impair that critical immune response [needed] to deal with either the virus infection or [the ability] to make a robust response to a vaccine."

Yes, the immune cells aren't using the right kinds of fuels. With obesity a clue of underlying metabolic disease, they're probably running on unhealthy high levels of glucose present in the body due to insulin resistance. But rather than "obesity throws off the fuel sources that immune cells need to function" a more accurate description may be metabolic disease, of which obesity is one sign, is doing this to the immune cells. Trying to break away here from the old notion that obesity is brought on by over-eating/under-moving and then goes on to be the cause of other health problems. The sugary drink makers would like us to believe that explanation. Like, remember to balance what you eat and drink with what you do? I saw something like that on a bottle at the store. Some would love for us to think obesity is our own fault for not following that kind of advice. I've been personally focusing lately on doing what lifestyle things I can to strengthen my immune system against illness. And combating things that lead toward insulin resistance and metabolic disorder, whether obesity shows up as one of its symptoms or not, looks to me to be pretty important right now for people's health. For me a big part of that is eating low carb.
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  #15   ^
Old Sat, Apr-18-20, 13:24
bevangel's Avatar
bevangel bevangel is offline
Posts: 2,288
 
Plan: modified adkins (sort of)
Stats: 265/176/167 Female 68.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 91%
Location: Austin, TX
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I just sent off an email requesting to be included in the NIH study as well.

Hubby and I have been self-isolating (together) since March 15th... well before our county was reporting ANY COVID-19 cases and back when nearby Austin was only reporting a very few cases.

Hubby is a retired virologist so VERY cognizant of bio-hazard safety procedures and we've been very strictly following all protocols for avoiding exposure since starting our isolation.

Therefore, by all reasonable expectations, I SHOULD test negative. Not gonna enroll hubby because a) he is terrified of needles and b) whatever my status is, his is undoubtedly the same since we've been pretty much cheek-to-jowl 24/7 for the last month.

IF I'm positive, the most likely place I'd have picked up the virus would have been during a folk music conference in New Orleans in late January (or on the flight to/from it).
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