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  #16   ^
Old Tue, Mar-03-20, 07:32
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
I have a friend who insists she will never wear the skin of an animal on her back (she is not vegan)

but I notice she wears leather shoes, belts and carries a leather purse and wallet

There seems to be a disconnect here


But maybe not a total disconnect. If your friend believes meat is important to human health--then leather from harvested animals might be seen as more ethical than fur from animals that we don't eat.

In health podcasts that are pro-keto, carnivore, or just pro-meat, sometimes I'll see people acknowledge ethical veganism. Basically taking the position that meat is important or even essential to human health--but okay, if somebody eats vegan and promotes it for ethical reasons, that's fine. But I don't think you can leave human health out of the equation for ethics. If you believe that a vegan diet is the healthiest--you're asking people to stop eating meat in favour of their health. Otherwise, you're asking them to sacrifice their health for the welfare of animals. You might have the ethical right to make that decision for yourself, but I have problems with trying to encourage others to do things that will make them less healthy.
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  #17   ^
Old Tue, Mar-03-20, 08:08
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Posts: 4,865
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
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The fact is that by living on this earth we are all complicit in the deaths of many other living beings. There is a difference between taking care to minimize our effect and adopting extreme behaviors which seems more about outward appearance than heartfelt compassion towards other living things.
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  #18   ^
Old Tue, Mar-03-20, 09:00
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 235/171/185 Male 5' 11"
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Life lives off life. It's a closed circle. Tigers eat tiger food, sheep eat sheep food. There is an old proverb about that but I can't readily find it on the 'net.

If it weren't for carnivores and omnivores controlling the population of herbivores none of us would be here.

Take the example of the Galapagos Marine Iguana.

At one time they were land iguanas and herbivores -- "vegans". They had their tiny ecosystem, one island, and without predators they ate everything on their island they could eat until they ate up their entire food supply and there was no food left.

So they started jumping into the water to eat seaweed. The iguanas are cold blooded and after going into the water to eat, they have to sit on a hot rock to regain body temperature or die.

As time went on the easy seaweed was all consumed and the iguanas had to dive deeper and deeper into the cold water to get food.

Now their population is limited by the hardship of finding food. Those who can't hold their breath long enough to get to the food will starve to death. Those who can't recover from the cold water will die of hypothermia. Life is a constant struggle.

At least the island is tiny and there is seaweed deep in the ocean. If it weren't for the seaweed there would be no iguanas there.

But the earth is a big island with no food nearby. If it weren't for the carnivores and omnivores, the herbivores would have eaten all the plant life on the planet long before the dinosaurs evolved.

So the vegans should be thanking us for giving us all an opportunity to live.

At least that's the way I see it.

Bob
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  #19   ^
Old Tue, Mar-03-20, 10:20
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bkloots bkloots is offline
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Plan: Atkins/LCHF/Keto
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A great overview, Bob-a-rama. Most people don't realize how rapidly ecological change can occur when something new intervenes. Species come and go. Probably the current human species as well, in a matter of time beyond individual reckoning. Look how fast the so-called "western diet" has produced deadly diabetes around the world. Never mind coronavirus.

I've just come from New Zealand, where succeeding waves of newcomers have vastly altered what was once a pristine self-contained environment, with flightless birds, no snakes, and gigantic trees. Rats, possums, hungry humans, and millions of sheep changed everything almost within human recollection. And in North America, the invasion of agriculture in prairies home to the bison? Well, the Dust Bowl, for one thing. Humans are sadly careless of our beautiful blue planet, and not just with pollution.

I did my bit by refusing motherhood. Not everyone wants that, but think how many mini-Me's will not be using up resources in the future.
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  #20   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-20, 02:32
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Ambulo Ambulo is offline
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Plan: No GS, IF
Stats: 150/129/120 Female 64 inches
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkloots
I did my bit by refusing motherhood. Not everyone wants that, but think how many mini-Me's will not be using up resources in the future.


That is my main contribution to the environment too, along with being able to count the number of plane journeys in my life on my fingers.
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  #21   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-20, 06:58
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-a-rama
So the vegans should be thanking us for giving us all an opportunity to live.

Bob


I agree, but vegans don't live in a sane world.

That's why I've come to see it as a cult: not only to they use controlling methods on their followers, the followers try to use controlling methods on the rest of us.

Any worldview that, if followed, ignores reality brings only disaster.

Here's the Cult Education Institution Warning Signs by people in a cult.

Quote:
Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.


That's an easy one. They make any non-vegan social occasion a nightmare of stress and guilt. And what could be more practical than health? Even as they get sicker, they refuse to believe it's their diet.

Quote:
Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.


Vegan becomes a lifestyle as they claim they don't buy or wear certain things because animal involvement. This follows no real practical considerations, they aren't consistent, but it seems to rule their life.

Quote:
Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".


The rest of us are the ones who are cruel and irrational. That's why we criticize, they say. We want to keep on being cruel.

Quote:
Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.


They all seem to love the word "disgusting!" They all say the same things the same way.

Quote:
Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.


This stands out to me because their diet is not based on the latest science, their reasons are contradicted by reality, and so they flock to chefs and videos because they either have the classic vegan "potato chips and soda" or those elaborate meals full of sugar. The contrast with those of us on this forum couldn't be more stark: we work at finding out what works for us in a way vegans completely ignore until their health starts to crash. Then they try one unworkable thing after another from their "experts" while ignoring their doctors.

Thankfully, medical blind spots do not include vegan issues. They are getting good advice from professionals, and won't take it.

Quote:
Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.


Of course they want to be professional vegans as we all would like to in our own ways. Having studied them for years now, I note that those who do have some other career goal tend to have their accomplishments happen prior to their vegan conversion. Athletes in particular. Memoirs of ex-vegans relate how their hopes and dreams seemed to dwindle along with their energy as they continued on this diet. Also, the more someone tries to "do it right" the more time it seems to take.

We low carbers can look obsessed from the outside; we actually cook! We avoid bread like vampires avoid garlic! But even cooking almost all my own meals, I have much more time now that I did before. I'm not thinking about food all the time; I cook once, eat several meals; and my time between meals is much longer.

But some of those vegan dishes, which people turn to as the answer when their health fades, takes elaborate prep and assembly. And frankly, they eat more junky food than any category of person except my fellow computer coders on a deadline It's so easy to find processed food without a trace of animal product they often start out living on snack food.

And they eat all the time. In The Meat Fix, the author explains that after more than two decades of veganism, he was used to eating giant quantities of food to get the protein he needed from such poor sources.

Quote:
A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.
Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.
Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.


Grouping the last few because this is long enough already, but I've seen how a person's circle shrinks as concerned friends question their choices. We low carbers get a lot of this at first, even though it does die down as results become evident But vegans get worse, not better, as they stick with it.

That's when "but all my friends are vegan too!" comes into play. I'm the most hardcore person I know; my hair stylist is the only keto person I know IRL besides DH. And I've never not been friends with anyone; one of my besties took the conventional path and while I worry about her all the time, we recognize and honor each other's choices.

Vegans don't. They can't. That's why I call them a cult.
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  #22   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-20, 08:48
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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I wouldn't call them a cult. Or say that all vegans belong to cults.

All the vegan people I've known were family, or friends of family. I say were because mostly they eat meat again (actually mostly carnivore now, I hope that lasts a bit longer, or if they stray, that it's towards green leafy vegetables). None of them insulated themselves against meat eaters. It's easy to think of vegans as extremist when your exposure to them is mostly online. If you feel strongly enough about veganism to try to make a living off of vegan youtube videos--well, this is a self-selected sample, we can't make valid generalizations from them.
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  #23   ^
Old Wed, Mar-04-20, 18:07
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
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I have a few non-militant vegan friends.

They know I'm keto, I know they are vegan and we all just consider ourselves picky eaters.

My two closest vegan friends, first started eating those "boca burgers" and other meat analog foods, and decided, "Why am I eating that when I chose to be vegetarian?" (They still ate cheese back then.)

Then they gave up dairy.

I've never asked them why they went vegan, and it really doesn't matter, because our eating habits only come into play when we decided to go out to dinner together. We have to choose a place that will cater to both our diets.

Another friend has been vegan since I met her 40-some years ago. Back then she just called herself vegetarian. Once I mentioned to her that vegans were the only true vegetarians, everyone else was an omnivore and she responded with an enthusiastic "YES!". Her husband eats dairy. She doesn't seem to mind.

It is my freedom and liberty to eat what I want to eat and a vegans freedom and liberty to do the same. They have no more business telling me what to eat than I have telling them what to eat.

When the militant veggie folks cross over the line and try to tell others what to eat, they are way off base and in the wrong.

In the wild, herbivores eat the plants and both carnivores and omnivores protect the plants from extinction by controlling the numbers of herbivores. So as humankind domesticated both plants and animals, it seems right to keep that balance. It's our 'job' as omnivores.

Bob
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  #24   ^
Old Thu, Mar-05-20, 07:32
tess9132 tess9132 is offline
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I have lots of vegan family members. For many of them it's a phase that ends when they get pregnant, although they remain vegetarians. Their hearts are in the right place - they worry about the environment and they feel bad for the animals. Several of them have married non-vegetarian husbands who don't eat a lot of meat but definitely do eat it, although they (the husbands) apologize for it, believing what they're eating is as bad for the environment as plastic straws. In my experience, the vegetarian/veganism lifestyle does approximate a religion, but one where most adherents are tolerant of omnivores.

As a carnivore who lives with a bunch of omnivores, I can speak for all of them and say the food has been terrible at vegetarian and vegan weddings. And the toasts are usually somewhat annoying. We have learned to eat before attending and to ignore the preaching we'll surely hear throughout the night.

Last edited by tess9132 : Thu, Mar-05-20 at 07:39.
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Mar-05-20, 07:43
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
None of them insulated themselves against meat eaters. It's easy to think of vegans as extremist when your exposure to them is mostly online.


They do make it easy.

But the rest of your comment makes some of my point: vegans are being conned. I know lots of ex-vegans who weren't anti-social about it. Because they tried it, it didn't work that well, and they transitioned into vegetarians or even further away.

There's also a huge difference between vegetarians and vegans regarding tolerance. At least in my experience.
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  #26   ^
Old Thu, Mar-05-20, 08:10
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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I just remember what it felt like to be accused of being in the low-carb Taliban.

Although I won't deny that such people do exist--just wanted to clear up that not everybody is in the cult. But yes--the cult does dupe some people who never buy all the way in.
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  #27   ^
Old Thu, Mar-05-20, 16:11
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
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I do believe many vegans are conned into believing that (1) veganism is healthier and (2) veganism is better for the planet.

I disagree with both.

There are 7 essential nutrients no vegetable can provide

But I suppose that for a small percentage of people veganism might be better. After all if there was one diet best for all, we'd only need one diet book.

Letting cows eat on pasture is much much better for the environment than trying to farm prairie. Link

There are a lot of ways to help the environment, do not use air conditioning, hang your clothes outdoors to dry, drive with a light foot on the accelerator, consume less, and so on.
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  #28   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-20, 02:46
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I just remember what it felt like to be accused of being in the low-carb Taliban.


But those were jokes, and we aren't banning fast food, candy, bread, or canola oil. I am very sensitive to coercion these days, and the goal of veganism is also supported by nefarious means.

Haven't listened to it yet, but the Feb 25 episode of Fast Keto with Ketogenic Girl is about: Belinda Fettke: What is behind the plant based nutritional agenda?

This is Dr. Fettke's wife who discovered he was targeted by a coalition of processed food companies and organized religion.

One way or another, it's not paranoid to say they are trying to kill us.
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  #29   ^
Old Fri, Mar-06-20, 11:51
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-a-rama
I do believe many vegans are conned into believing that (1) veganism is healthier and (2) veganism is better for the planet.

I disagree with both.

There are 7 essential nutrients no vegetable can provide

But I suppose that for a small percentage of people veganism might be better. After all if there was one diet best for all, we'd only need one diet book.

Letting cows eat on pasture is much much better for the environment than trying to farm prairie. Link

There are a lot of ways to help the environment, do not use air conditioning, hang your clothes outdoors to dry, drive with a light foot on the accelerator, consume less, and so on.


worth repeating.

I look over my garden area where the chickens scratch and peck.....they are busy as bees.....and their yolks are rather dark despite the lack of green vegetation at this time. They seem to turn nothing into something. The birds get feed but the eggs from hens that dont access the ground at this point has a paler egg yolk.

Years ago I had a group that headed to the woods for the day, past the last barn, into the realm of coyots and deer......they are foragers.
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