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  #16   ^
Old Sat, Oct-26-19, 15:10
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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Posts: 2,388
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/150/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: NE WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-a-rama
I understand people have been chewing the leaves of the Coca plant for millions of years and in that form it's a mild stimulant, akin to coffee consumption. However I have never tried it, nor have I read scientific literature on that, so it could be an 'urban legend'.

I grew up in the midst of the drug culture, back when people snorted cocaine. I never tried it as I realized it would quickly shrink the membranes in my wallet

Bob


I remember reading about the leaves somewhere - but it was so many years ago I don't quite remember where.

When I was in my teens I had a few friends who shot up cocaine (at least that's what I think it was) - not something I ever wanted to do because I have always hated needles. Good thing I didn't know about any other way to ingest it - I might have been stupid enough to try it.
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  #17   ^
Old Sat, Oct-26-19, 16:29
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
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Posts: 1,281
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I had a longer version of this but it got mucky. Basically--we say, sugar, like cocaine is addictive. And then people act as if we are conflating sugar with cocaine. Or if we take a broader view and look at food consumption as addictive versus cocaine--put it that way and the thing we are addicted to is what sustains life (food not cocaine of course). Cocaine is harmful, sugar can be harmful (and probably usually is, at least the way we use it), but they're harmful in different ways. We aren't saying that if you're going to eat a candy bar, you might as well go snort some coke and be done with it. But sometimes people act like that is what we're saying. It's sort of like calories in calories out where sometimes people act like if you don't think that's the place to concentrate, you don't actually believe in calorie deficits. When meanwhile it's more like we're saying that the calorie deficit isn't best taken head-on.



Your explanation makes sense - thank you for clarifying it.


For the bolded part, I was thinking about it in terms of how addicted I was to carbs. (still am- that's the nature off addiction, the addiction never goes away)



At the time though, I thought I was addicted to food in general, which would be totally insurmountable, because everyone needs to eat food to live. Knowing that the alcoholic can't drink in moderation, the concept that I was addicted to one of the basics needed to sustain life meant that I was totally hopeless - I'd never have a chance of eating in moderation, because I believed I was addicted to food. I didn't realize at the time that it was the carbs that were the real problem, even though what I was using to feed my apparent "food addiction" was constant carbs. If I wasn't eating food, I was thinking about food, cooking food, or buying more food to cook in order to eat it as quickly as possible.
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  #18   ^
Old Sun, Oct-27-19, 04:00
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,979
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
Happy to state that even the low carb versions of chocolate chip cookies would not do it for me. I no longer desire sweet anything, including anything with low carb sweeteners. In fact, I no longer like sweet tastes. One of the many benefits of total sugar elimination and strict carb restriction is the disappearing of previous cravings for certain foods. The addiction tendencies are gone.


True!

Strangely enough, when I share what I think is a happy state of indifference to "treats," it horrifies those who are ironically trying to lose weight. "I can't give up bread/cake/cookies/ice cream" because they are sources of pleasure.

When I explain I substitute good health and a more varied wardrobe in place of this "source of joy" they just look at me blankly.

They think they can have both.
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  #19   ^
Old Sun, Oct-27-19, 08:13
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Posts: 1,325
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/179/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 113%
Location: Florida
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Sometimes they think a doctor can fix them.

I had a new neighbor who was walking her dog while walking with a cane. I asked her what her ailment was and she said arthritis.

I gave her the arthritis/bursitis diet given to me by a doctor. Basically it is to avoid high glycemic foods and foods high in arachidonic acid. Within a month she was walking without the cane.

A few months later she was walking with the cane again. When I asked here if the diet stopped working, she responded that she just couldn't give up her fruit and pasta.

Me? I'd rather be pain free and have my joints working well. I went from not being able to walk 2 blocks without stopping to being able to walk 4 miles a day with zero pain on that diet.

IMO if you can fix a problem with food, it's better than trying to fix the problem with drugs while feeding the problem you are trying to fix.

Perhaps I'm just weird that way.

Bob
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  #20   ^
Old Sun, Oct-27-19, 08:37
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 12,372
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
True!

Strangely enough, when I share what I think is a happy state of indifference to "treats," it horrifies those who are ironically trying to lose weight. "I can't give up bread/cake/cookies/ice cream" because they are sources of pleasure.

When I explain I substitute good health and a more varied wardrobe in place of this "source of joy" they just look at me blankly.

They think they can have both.



This has been my experience too. Ive stopped trying to explain. They want their fix.


It is the T2D that listen.
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  #21   ^
Old Sun, Oct-27-19, 08:42
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 12,372
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-a-rama
Sometimes they think a doctor can fix them.

I had a new neighbor who was walking her dog while walking with a cane. I asked her what her ailment was and she said arthritis.

I gave her the arthritis/bursitis diet given to me by a doctor. Basically it is to avoid high glycemic foods and foods high in arachidonic acid. Within a month she was walking without the cane.

A few months later she was walking with the cane again. When I asked here if the diet stopped working, she responded that she just couldn't give up her fruit and pasta.

Me? I'd rather be pain free and have my joints working well. I went from not being able to walk 2 blocks without stopping to being able to walk 4 miles a day with zero pain on that diet.

IMO if you can fix a problem with food, it's better than trying to fix the problem with drugs while feeding the problem you are trying to fix.

Perhaps I'm just weird that way.

Bob


You have mentioned this lady before.....and she has remained a point of thought for me since.

My only answer is she did not go very low carb which some of us need to kick the addiction into submission. Otherwise the cravings continue and cannot be managed.
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  #22   ^
Old Sun, Oct-27-19, 09:07
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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Posts: 2,388
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/150/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: NE WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
True!

Strangely enough, when I share what I think is a happy state of indifference to "treats," it horrifies those who are ironically trying to lose weight. "I can't give up bread/cake/cookies/ice cream" because they are sources of pleasure.

When I explain I substitute good health and a more varied wardrobe in place of this "source of joy" they just look at me blankly.

They think they can have both.


I hear this a lot from people who are looking into OA for weight loss. And of course it doesn't work that way. For me, OA & low carb/medium protein work hand in hand. The food part fixes my body, the OA part works on the mental/spiritual problems that want to keep me from eating right.

Non-food "rewards" are so helpful. I've really gotten into fancy soaps & incense. And it's much more fun to shop for clothes when you're smaller & have more choices. Most clothes for fat people are awful - and what's with all the horizontal stripes & huge butterflies?
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  #23   ^
Old Sun, Oct-27-19, 10:53
Verbena Verbena is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 932
 
Plan: My own
Stats: 186/155/150 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 86%
Location: SW PNW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-a-rama
I understand people have been chewing the leaves of the Coca plant for millions of years and in that form it's a mild stimulant, akin to coffee consumption. However I have never tried it, nor have I read scientific literature on that, so it could be an 'urban legend'.


Some years ago DH and I took a wonderful trip to Peru. Among other adventures, we flew from Lima, on the coast, to Cuzco, way up in the Andes - 11,000+ feet. The first thing we were offered at the hotel in Cuzco was a cup of coca tea to help with the altitude adjustment. I had a slight headache; the coca tea fixed my headache, and wasn't unpleasant to drink. Other than headache relief I didn't notice any particular effect. With my interest in healing herbs I was very tempted to bring some home with me, but I resisted the impulse. I figured the beagles at San Francisco airport would probably detect my infraction; they are very good at their job
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  #24   ^
Old Sun, Oct-27-19, 11:31
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Posts: 4,577
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-a-rama
Sometimes they think a doctor can fix them.

I had a new neighbor who was walking her dog while walking with a cane. I asked her what her ailment was and she said arthritis.

I gave her the arthritis/bursitis diet given to me by a doctor. Basically it is to avoid high glycemic foods and foods high in arachidonic acid. Within a month she was walking without the cane.

A few months later she was walking with the cane again. When I asked here if the diet stopped working, she responded that she just couldn't give up her fruit and pasta.

Me? I'd rather be pain free and have my joints working well. I went from not being able to walk 2 blocks without stopping to being able to walk 4 miles a day with zero pain on that diet.

IMO if you can fix a problem with food, it's better than trying to fix the problem with drugs while feeding the problem you are trying to fix.

Perhaps I'm just weird that way.

Bob


I feel the same way. If you can fix the problem with dietary changes then why not do it. I have a hard time understanding why most people choose their food fix over a healthy body.
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  #25   ^
Old Mon, Oct-28-19, 03:30
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,979
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
I have a hard time understanding why most people choose their food fix over a healthy body.


I think Ms Arielle is right. We are dealing with an addiction, plus a state of mind which makes it difficult to make decisions.

I have not found a neurotransmitter connected with this state of "poor executive functioning" though I suspect l-dopa because of its connection to Parkinson's. If decisions can be mental movement the way muscles can be voluntary movement, there might be another for these commands we send.

In my worst states, with low executive functioning, I would stand in the grocery store unable to think of anything I wanted to eat. Without that drive, I did not have the ability to figure out what to get. I was so sleep-deprived and exhausted thought itself took too much energy.

This is a mountain for most people to get over. We are surrounded by the wrong foods and eating the right ones requires more resources from time to money. At functions we are exiles. At family gatherings we are harassed.

All while a bad diet interferes with every system still running.

It shouldn't amaze us that so few are able to follow at this point. It's amazing we did it
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  #26   ^
Old Mon, Oct-28-19, 06:14
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 12,372
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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You are right , it is dopamine.

L-tyrosine is available OTC to help with increasing dopamine. DrAmen also talks about a lower carb diet to improve function, meaning dump the sweets. And...... the brain benefits of aerobic exercise. brisk walk fir an hour 5 days a week. All aimed at better thinking and decision making.

For the lucky few suffering from ADD /ADHD who can get methylphenadate, it is are like putting on glasses and seeing the world for the first time. Most who live with untreated ADD ADHD dont realize their full potential.

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Mon, Oct-28-19 at 06:21.
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  #27   ^
Old Mon, Oct-28-19, 07:18
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,388
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/150/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: NE WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
In my worst states, with low executive functioning, I would stand in the grocery store unable to think of anything I wanted to eat. Without that drive, I did not have the ability to figure out what to get. I was so sleep-deprived and exhausted thought itself took too much energy.


Oh yes. That was my experience, too. I couldn't clean house properly because I couldn't figure out where things went. When I finally got healthy enough to figure out the problem - tho not cure it - I told my husband to just tell me where things should be & I'd put them there.

But now I'm a completely different person. I can make up my mind about all sorts of things, so I can shop, do housework, decorate & more without a problem. It's wonderful!

I'm also down to 150 pounds - that's wonderful too!

Oh - another wonderful! I went to a klezmer concert & the musicians invited everyone to to join them in a line dance. I haven't danced in years - too fat, no energy, low self-esteem, etc - but that night I danced! In front of everybody! It's was SO much fun.
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  #28   ^
Old Mon, Oct-28-19, 07:50
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Posts: 1,325
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/179/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 113%
Location: Florida
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Just thinking out loud here.

Are our drives stronger than our intellect for most people?

So many know that excessive sugar is bad for them, yet they can't give up their sweet treats.

People still smoke tobacco products and now are vaping.

They know that playing football makes a person much more likely to get Alzheimer's or Parkinson's in old age but continue to play (and send their children out there)

They know that so many other activities like hang gliding, mountain climbing, etc., have a high thrill factor but a high death and injury rate, even for the most experienced, but so many do it anyway.

I could go on and on but I'll spare you.

What I'm getting at is the risk:reward ratio.

With sugar, hang gliding, playing contact sports, etc, the risk isn't immediate like swimming in a pool of sharks. So it's easy to think, "I can beat the odds".

It's like going to Vegas or playing the lottery and expecting to win. You might win the tobacco or sugar 'lottery' too.

What do you all think about that?

Bob

Last edited by Bob-a-rama : Mon, Oct-28-19 at 08:08.
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  #29   ^
Old Mon, Oct-28-19, 08:03
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,125
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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I think there's a difference in eating and participating in activities that stimulate the adrenaline rush. Also, I would change the word "intellect" to "common sense." Common sense can be improved by experiences and learning.

That being said, as we eat, we don't really think of the rush we get from food. We need to eat. The food we choose can have a positive or negative effect on our health. Most don't think about it that way, and given the messages we are exposed to regarding healthy eating, most of us are completely confused by the time we are in our teens and can understand these messages.

I agree with your points about football or hang gliding, but you point out the thrill factor. Food is more insidious because we need to eat. And if we eat enough of those foods that cause us to crave more of that food type, we can develop an addiction hard to resist. The only thrill I see is in those who already know the foods they consume are very unhealthy, but consume regardless in a rebellious manner because they can't control their cravings.

They don't link the potential death risk, as it happens over a long time and those foods make them feel so good. Me, I never had the desire to ride fast on a motorcycle, because I wasn't a risk junky. But, 10 years ago, give me a good piece of carrot cake, and I'd dive in and forget the consequences. Probably because I felt I could stop this behavior any time, I didn't pay any attention until I had to.
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  #30   ^
Old Mon, Oct-28-19, 08:33
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
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Posts: 1,281
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
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I don't know, Bob. Part of me sees a devil-may-care attitude that says I've only got one life to live, I'm going to live it the way I want, by engaging in high risk activities, and eating what I want.

Another part of me sees an addiction factor involved. It's not to the extent of cocaine of course - one overdose of sugar or a knock on the head in a football game isn't likely to kill you, unless there are other confounding factors. (such as a diabetic dying from untreated ketoacidosis, or a football concussion so severe that it causes a deadly brain bleed) Basically, as long as the thrill (sweet foods that they love, or the adrenaline rush of participating in a game they're good at, and LOVE playing) is still available, they're not likely to give it up, even though little problems are encountered, and slowly getting worse. (weight gain and increased diabetes meds, or the occasional broken leg/arm from a bad landing under a tackle)

When it comes to choosing high carb foods, you also have the gov't, doctors, and food manufacturers telling you constantly that sugar won't hurt you in moderation (what is moderation? If you're used to eating 20 cookies at a sitting, and cut back to 10 cookies at a time, is that moderation? In the mind of someone who's used to eating twice as many, it probably is... and not merely moderation, but a white-knuckle inducing sacrifice), and that you NEED loads of whole grains daily (despite the fact that they're still 80-90% starch, usually with added sweeteners, to cover up the bitterness of the bran, and the rancid state of the oils in the milled grains.) So you congratulate yourself for doing the right thing, or at least the best you can do, considering that you've always eaten the cookies, and supposedly improved your diet by not only cutting back on the cookies, but also adding in all those heart healthy whole grains.

Basically, not everyone is even open to an alternative way of eating that not only forces them to give up every food they've enjoyed their entire life, but to also very blatantly go against everything that the gov't, food manufacturers, and their doctors have been drumming into their heads for the last 4 decades.

Those may not be the best examples of how I think this works - just the couple that I was able to come up with right now.
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