Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > LC Research/Media
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 11:45
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,416
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/140/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 114%
Location: USA
Default Sorry, keto fans, you're probably not in ketosis

Did you know only children and teens can get into ketosis?

Quote:
"Itís not so easy to get an adult body into ketosis," says Teresa Fung, a professor of nutrition at Simmons College. "Thatís why the keto diet is used as a treatment of epilepsy in children or infantsóbecause itís easier." Kids are growing rapidly, she explains, so their use of food as fuel is different from the way adults use it. Researchers arenít exactly sure what those differences are, but Fung says it's so hard to get adults into deep ketosis (which is likely deeper than a dieter's target) that often nutritionists don't even attempt it as a therapy. Itís primarily kids who undergo the treatment today.


They should study ME. Iím obviously a mutant.

Quote:
ďKeto is not easy to maintain, itís not a palatable diet,Ē says Andrea Giancoli, a dietician and nutrition consultant in California. Getting 80-90 percent of your calories from fatówhich is whatís generally required for ketoóis actually difficult. It involves eating a lot of rich, heavy foods with little varietyóthink fatty meats and gravy on cauliflower. Youíre only allowed 10 to 15 grams of carbohydrates per day, and though many dieters stretch that to more like 20 or 30 grams thatís still only about one banana. A single apple could also get you past that limit depending on its size (though the fiber in an apple means that many dieters don't count those carbs towards their daily limit) and a couple slices of bread likely fulfill the requirement as well.


Yes, my suffering. It is... nonexistent, actually. I guess I feel so much better Iím not noticing the misery!

Quote:
This is why epilepsy patients have to get prescribed diets from profession[al] nutritionists. Without getting into true ketosis, dieters risk ingesting an enormous amount of fatóand potentially a lot of saturated fat, if youíre eating animal meatówithout any of the fat-burning effects of ketosis. "The fat is the thing that's problematic for a lot of people on keto," Fung says. "They basically give a pass for any types of fat and a lot of the recipes encourage saturated fats like butter." Dieters who are careful to focus on healthy, unsaturated fats like those in avocados may not have issues, but again Fung notes that you end up with a fairly monotonous diet that way, and thus a lot of people end up eating more saturated fats. "To me as a nutritionist, that's pretty scary."


Saturated fat comes to kill me in my dreams.

Thereís lots more at the link:
Sorry, keto fans - and get this. Itís Popular Science.

Oh, the humanity.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 12:17
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 10,340
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Oh, the STUPIDITY, lol.

I wont put myself thru the torture of reading that article in full. I'd rather go pick some lettuce, radishes and scallions from the garden, then saute 4 eggs to go with it.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 12:24
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,849
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Wonder if Ms. Fung has ever tested blood ketones in adults who follow VLCKD as a way of life? My way of eating is diverse and hardly monotonous as I stay in ketosis. Silly, naive comments from another "expert." BTW, I never had gravy on my cauliflower. Butter or olive oil will do fine.

Edited to add: The warning about saturated fat is terribly outdated, but unfortunately, many still believe this myth hook, line, and sinker. This is the news that the world must process today, which is why I have a very guarded position on whether what constitutes healthy lifestyles will ever reach agreement. We have a petri dish called the Dietary Guidelines for Americans that will serve as the fighting octagon with many participants (some far more powerful than others) for this ongoing debate.

Last edited by GRB5111 : Thu, May-30-19 at 12:38.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 13:51
Luckyk26's Avatar
Luckyk26 Luckyk26 is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 696
 
Plan: Keto
Stats: 236.2/226.8/160 Female 5 ft 4 in
BF:
Progress: 12%
Location: New Jersey
Default

I was just about to post this article because the amount of misinformation is frightening. My favorite part is "A couple of slices of bread will likely fulfill that requirement as well". I'm sorry, does this writer have any idea what a ketogenic diet is? Or what a carbohydrate is for that matter? I'm still convinced that they have to print things like this because pharmaceutical companies will lose money if people start fixing themselves through diet. That's exactly what I did.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 14:27
Zei Zei is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,414
 
Plan: Carb reduction in general
Stats: 230/213/180 Female 5 ft 9 in
BF:
Progress: 34%
Location: Texas
Default

Quote:
But the real problem isnít going over your carb limitóitís the protein. A therapeutic keto diet limits your protein intake ďIf youíre eating a lot of protein, youíre breaking that down into carbs,Ē Giancoli explains. Your body is in desperation mode on keto, she says, and without a reasonable supply of carbohydrates coming from grains and fruits, youíll start breaking down the amino acids in proteins to make glucose. Glucose, though it sounds like a scary sugar, is your bodyís primary source of fuel. Too much isnít good for you, but you need some just to allow your cells to function normally.

No, my body's primary fuel isn't glucose, it's fat. And yes I do need some glucose, and yes that's why my body breaks down some fat and amino acids into glucose to cover this need. That's what the body's supposed to do. And nope, my body's not in desperation mode, it's quite happy this way and has been for years. Glucose is a scary sugar if it takes away my kidneys, legs, eyes, heart, etc. through the diabetes damage I personally would get if I relied on it rather than fat for fuel. Oh, and not missing those grains and fruit. Quite happy without, enjoying all my yummy saturated fats.
Edit to add: yes, I think the author may have a point that deep ketosis may be more difficult for adults to achieve/maintain than possibly for children, which could be more challenging for an adult whose health needs (such as epilepsy) require deep ketosis. Even on nearly zero carb I don't always go into much ketosis, but for my needs and likely a lot of other adults without certain health conditions it may not matter.

Last edited by Zei : Thu, May-30-19 at 14:36.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 14:39
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
Posts: 8,371
 
Plan: Paleoish
Stats: 225/170/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 110%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
Default

That article displays a lot of ignorance and misconceptions about low-carb and ketosis.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 15:22
bluesinger's Avatar
bluesinger bluesinger is offline
Posts: 3,978
 
Plan: n=1:TheraKeto
Stats: 170/138/140 Female 62 inches
BF:24%
Progress: 107%
Location: Nevada Desert, USA
Default

Just last week while I was fasting and taking exogenous ketones, my blood ketones were 4.4 mmol/L. If I don't use exogenous ketones, my readings are usually between 1.0 and 2.0 mmol/L.

It's not difficult and I'm definitely and adult.
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 15:24
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,102
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/185/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Florida
Default

The only truth I see is that the diet is indeed limited. But for me, I don't mind, the results are worth the limiting. I don't need donuts, white bread, potatoes, macaroni (and I'm Italian-American), cereal, beans, pop tarts, cakes, and pies. I also don't need any prescription meds and I'm 72 years young. I've been on keto since the 70s when they called it Atkins Induction.

Bob
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 16:43
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,211
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
Default

Back when Atkins made a popular resurgence in the early 00's, I remember seeing a sign in the grocery store saying "There's nothing to eat on Atkins, except..." with several rows of LC foods



Oh look! I found a picture of it!




Of course this was around 2000, when they started making the bars and shakes, but even eliminating those from the poster, that's hardly what I'd call a limited, unpalatable, monotonous selection of food. They just need to add a stick of butter, some bacon, eggs, cream, and a few dozen other LC friendly foods to the poster.

I find high carb to be a lot more limited - grain and sugar based everything, all day long, every day, with the occasional tiny bit of meat or tsp of fat to make it a little more palatable. Bleh.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 18:58
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,849
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
I find high carb to be a lot more limited - grain and sugar based everything, all day long, every day, with the occasional tiny bit of meat or tsp of fat to make it a little more palatable. Bleh.

Amen to that. Combined with the need to eat and snack all day long because you have constant cravings is extremely limited. I know when I do an IF, I'm free of having to prepare food for the whole time and can spend time doing other things. When I take a long car trip, I don't have to worry about food, as I've got my own on-board reserves that prevent me from being hungry. And when I eat, I eat to satiety without counting calories or imposing a limit. So much simpler this way.
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 22:40
kathleen24 kathleen24 is offline
Monday came.
Posts: 4,398
 
Plan: my own
Stats: 275/130/155 Female 5'4"
BF:ummm . . . ?
Progress: 121%
Default

Enjoyed this thread as my dinner entertainment. Menu?
Red pepper, raw broccoli, whole fat cottage cheese and blue cheese dressing, salmon and mayo. Started with an overflowing plate; will eat until I don't want any more and that put the rest in the frig. Oh, the monotony. Oh, the desperation.
Now to be fair, I'm not measuring ketones. Or food. Or calories. Or carbs. Eat when I'm hungry, eat what I'm hungry for, stop eating when I'm full. I stay away from sugar and grains, try to avoid most processed foods.
Four years ago, I weighed twice what I weigh today, had a worn-out knee, and moved like I was ninety. Today I move like I'm nineteen. Don't eat bananas. Or apples. And I sure don't eat bread.
Wearing US size six clothing. I remember when getting into 16's would have been dreaming the impossible dream. What could entice me to go back to those days when my body was my prison? Sure as hell not a couple of slices of Wonder Bread.

So this is not just an ignorant voice in the wilderness espousing this, or even a nutritionist. It's someone who teaches nutritionists and churns out the advice they depend upon in their professional lives, the same kind of advice that led to years of misery for myself and a legion of others.

Damn. She may kiss my rosy stats.
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Fri, May-31-19, 09:30
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,102
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/185/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Florida
Default

When I see all the foods in the grocery store ads and on the shelves that I don't eat, it's definitely limited. And I'm glad it's limited. I'm limited by not being allowed to eat unhealthy frankenfood on this diet.

Bob
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Fri, May-31-19, 11:44
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 626
 
Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/208/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/47.3%/25%
Progress: 32%
Location: PNW
Default

Sounds like Popular Science has fallen for the popular misunderstanding that a medically ketogenic diet is the same things as a very low carb diet that has been nicknamed "keto." The whole article is a mess with just a bunch of biased opinions instead of real science.
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Tue, Jun-04-19, 21:30
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is online now
Every moment is NOW.
Posts: 20,166
 
Plan: LC (ketogenic)
Stats: 520/385/350 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 79%
Location: Ozarks USA
Default

Quote:
Kids are growing rapidly, she explains, so their use of food as fuel is different from the way adults use it. Researchers arenít exactly sure what those differences are
The incredible demands on kids' bodies seems reasonable for a degree of that, but the way it's worded, makes me feel like, well because they are caterpillars and adults are butterflies so of course it's different.

Quote:
itís not a palatable diet
On what planet would this be true?

Quote:
Getting 80-90 percent of your calories from fatówhich is whatís generally required for keto
That's pretty high. pubmed seems to think it's quite a spectrum and can range down to about 55% fat. This has been so for me. If my fats are too low I am unhappy and want to be noshing, but that doesn't mean it isn't keto. In fact that usually means it IS keto and body wants more fat energy. But if you ate 90% fat and 10-15 carbs, your protein intake would be super low. Aside from the most extreme medical diet that's hardly sane.

(Noting also that most fasting is ketogenic. No idea what % of bodyfat it's using.)

Quote:
It involves eating a lot of rich, heavy foods
That's a feature not a bug :-) Remember the 'not palatable'??

Quote:
with little varietyóthink fatty meats and gravy on cauliflower.
Yuck. What demented masochist taught this person VLCKD??

It has less variety than 'eat anything in the grocery store' that is true. However 80% of the crap in the grocery store is not food, it's ingestible entertainment.

Quote:
Youíre only allowed 10 to 15 grams of carbohydrates per day, and though many dieters stretch that to more like 20 or 30 grams
Usually you're allowed twice stated, and it can be stretched to about 45-50g depending on the person -- also according to various stuff in pubmed. Depends on the person I expect (and possibly the food sources of the carbs given the fiber question).

My only point in ref'ing pubmed is that it required seconds to find on the internet, so it's hardly inaccessible, and it's involved in studies that actually have to measure the state of ketosis in human beings.

Quote:
thatís still only about one banana.
Preferably zero bananas. Maybe if you ate fewer bananas you wouldn't be living on gravy on cauli.

Quote:
A single apple could also get you past that limit depending on its size (though the fiber in an apple means that many dieters don't count those carbs towards their daily limit) and a couple slices of bread likely fulfill the requirement as well.
"News flash: eating high-sugar foods on a low-sugar diet means you can barely eat any of them without maxing out your sugar metric." Also recently discovered, if you sleep during daylight hours, you have fewer daylight hours remaining to enjoy while awake. Scientists are confounded.

Quote:
Without getting into true ketosis, dieters risk ingesting an enormous amount of fatóand potentially a lot of saturated fat, if youíre eating animal meatówithout any of the fat-burning effects of ketosis.
Last I heard the accusation against lowcarb was that the nature of the foods caused people to eat fewer calories overall, which regardless of type of diet is usually what these folks thinks matters. Glad to hear they're on the fat-burning-is-good train finally. ...?

Quote:
"The fat is the thing that's problematic for a lot of people on keto," Fung says. "They basically give a pass for any types of fat and a lot of the recipes encourage saturated fats like butter." "To me as a nutritionist, that's pretty scary."
I used to say that nutritionist was what the pretty but stupid people from high school became. Then I met a few people who did that who actually were properly informed about it and quite intelligent. This is one of those careers, like law and politics, where 95% of them are giving the other 5% a bad name.

But, to get any related degree, you'd have to lie about nearly everything in class and on tests. I worked for 14 years for a uni-level textbook mfr and they all say the same thing. Eggs and butter will kill you, grains are absolutely required or you can't be healthy, vitamins and supplements are merely expensive urine, low-carbohydrate diets are "dangerous fad" diets, and my favorite in one -- if you want supplements, just drink energy drinks like Red Bull. (!)

This is typical BS we would have read 20 years ago, so it's kind of surprising I guess that the same BS is still being pushed today. I would think the internet would be gradually educating more people to recognize it as that, though.

I only grieve a bit that there may be people whose lives would be so improved, even saved, by VLCKD's and they may never try them -- or properly -- because some allegedly expert idiot in the press gave them the wrong idea about it.

PJ

Last edited by rightnow : Tue, Jun-04-19 at 21:37.
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Tue, Jun-04-19, 21:56
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,317
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/170/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 34%
Location: NE WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rightnow
Preferably zero bananas. Maybe if you ate fewer bananas you wouldn't be living on gravy on cauli.


I've seen that sort of thing too often: "If you eat (random high carb food) you've blown the diet." But why would I eat bread, bananas, apples, desserts, etc? And I LIKE cauliflower! But I don't care for gravy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rightnow
I only grieve a bit that there may be people whose lives would be so improved, even saved, by VLCKD's and they may never try them -- or properly -- because some allegedly expert idiot in the press gave them the wrong idea about it.


I was almost one of those people - I thought low carb was just a fad. Thank God for a friend who kept nudging me in the right direction!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 20:08.


Copyright © 2000-2019 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.