Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low Carb Health & Technical Forums > General Health
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16   ^
Old Thu, Apr-04-19, 16:49
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,038
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Disheartening that the value of the gall bladder is reduced to nothing. Just cut it out and toss it away.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #17   ^
Old Thu, Apr-04-19, 17:25
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,711
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/136/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Disheartening that the value of the gall bladder is reduced to nothing. Just cut it out and toss it away.


Hmmmm. An entire organ to help us digest FAT. If we’re supposed to eat low fat, why do we have a specialized organ evolved to help us do it well?
Reply With Quote
  #18   ^
Old Thu, Apr-04-19, 17:34
SilverEm SilverEm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,081
 
Plan: LC RPAH/FailSafe
Stats: 137/136/136 Female 67"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Maintenance since 2001
Default

I think taking ox bile/bile acids is helpful.

And sometimes I do a round of taking chanca piedra, an herb for dissolving stones, or dissolving developing stones.
Reply With Quote
  #19   ^
Old Fri, Apr-05-19, 13:42
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Every moment is NOW.
Posts: 20,482
 
Plan: LC (ketogenic)
Stats: 520/359/280 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 67%
Location: Ozarks USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
Hmmmm. An entire organ to help us digest FAT. If we’re supposed to eat low fat, why do we have a specialized organ evolved to help us do it well?

Excellent point.


PJ
Reply With Quote
  #20   ^
Old Fri, Apr-05-19, 16:48
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,222
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
Before low fat, doctors would “clean out” the gall bladder and let it heal. It was considered a vital organ.



Cleaning out the gall bladder had limited success. If the attack is caused by a stone which has become lodged within the duct, then it won't do much good just to clean out the gall bladder, you'd need to remove the duct. Removing the duct would permanently block the bile inside the gall bladder, just like the obstruction in the duct blocked the bile, so they'd need to remove the gall bladder anyway.



I think they're just cutting to the chase - remove the gall bladder, and it's quicker than trying the clean out the gall bladder, only to find out that doesn't fix the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
Hmmmm. An entire organ to help us digest FAT. If we’re supposed to eat low fat, why do we have a specialized organ evolved to help us do it well?

It's only considered gall bladder disease if you have attacks. A gall bladder attack only occurs after a high fat meal. Therefore, THEY make it sound like eating too much fat is what causes gall bladder disease to begin with. Therefore, if you eat low fat all the time, then you won't need to have bile squirting out of your gall bladder, and therefore sludge or stones won't block the bile and cause an attack.


At least that's the way it was described back when I had mine removed - they probably haven't changed their stance much since then though, even though there's now evidence that the bile stagnating in there (due to eating a diet too low in fat) is what causes the bile to harden into stones and sludge, so that when you finally give in and have a fatty meal, you end up with a gall bladder attack.
Reply With Quote
  #21   ^
Old Fri, Apr-05-19, 21:05
nawchem's Avatar
nawchem nawchem is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 8,701
 
Plan: No gluten, CAD
Stats: 196.0/158.5/149.0 Female 62
BF:36/29.0/27.3
Progress: 80%
Default

I used to have a once a week free day, I always had nachos. I love butter, cream and fatty meat. Every time I ate nachos I had intense gall bladder pain that would go on a few days. I finally had to cut it out afraid I'd end up having to have surgery.

It seemed to be the change in diet to a ton of carbs with fat that bothered me so much.

I also once received a goody basket at Christmas after about 6 weeks of straight low carb. I ate the fudge that resulted again in intense gall bladder pain.

Maybe the carbs are doing something to the liver that irritates the gall bladder?
Reply With Quote
  #22   ^
Old Sat, Apr-06-19, 07:52
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,006
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
Hmmmm. An entire organ to help us digest FAT. If we’re supposed to eat low fat, why do we have a specialized organ evolved to help us do it well?

And . . . why do humans efficiently and easily transition to burning fat for energy if it weren't a vital part of our energy requirements? That's why we store fat so easily, it's just that we haven't developed to live effectively with the constant availability of food and multiple meals and snack consumption that we tend to think is normal today.
Reply With Quote
  #23   ^
Old Sat, Apr-06-19, 08:08
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,711
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/136/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
it's just that we haven't developed to live effectively with the constant availability of food and multiple meals and snack consumption that we tend to think is normal today.


All this research on the gut biome and its position in our immune system illuminates why it will never develop, either.

Corporate Food profits dictate that human keep their digestive machinery running non-stop. Now we know much more clearly that it’s not designed to be stuffed full of food like a sausage. It performs vital functions once active digestion is over, and in the SAD world of three meals, three snacks, and a bedtime treat, it never does get to perform those functions.
Reply With Quote
  #24   ^
Old Sat, Apr-06-19, 15:13
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,222
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nawchem
I used to have a once a week free day, I always had nachos. I love butter, cream and fatty meat. Every time I ate nachos I had intense gall bladder pain that would go on a few days. I finally had to cut it out afraid I'd end up having to have surgery.

It seemed to be the change in diet to a ton of carbs with fat that bothered me so much.

I also once received a goody basket at Christmas after about 6 weeks of straight low carb. I ate the fudge that resulted again in intense gall bladder pain.

Maybe the carbs are doing something to the liver that irritates the gall bladder?

You know, this is a really interesting idea, because when I started having the gall bladder problems, I didn't consider what I'd eaten right before to be "high fat", even though the doctors insisted that it was that dastardly high fat meal I'd eaten that caused the problem.



So this is the meal that started the whole ordeal - pork chops (with ALL the visible fat trimmed off - and you know pork has been extremely lean in the last couple decades), some kind of vegetable, probably green beans or brussels sprouts (no butter on them at all), and a biscuit (I have a biscuit cutter that makes them about 1-1/4" in diameter, so it was a really small biscuit.) I think we also had mashed potatoes that night - made with 2% milk, but no butter (or margarine in those days) in them, because DH would always put lots of butter on his potatoes, and I didn't want to kill him by adding any fat to his perfectly healthy, nearly fat free potatoes. So that biscuit would have been the fattiest thing on my plate, since there's fats in the dough, and I would have put some butter on the biscuit.



Honestly, I made a lot fattier meals than that most of the time, even if they were still relatively low fat compared to what I eat now. They were just somewhat lower in carbs than that meal, which was relatively low in fats but high in carbs from the biscuits and potatoes - and yet that's the one that set me off.


To continue on the possibility that high carb is what really causes gall bladder problems, during the week or so wait between the diagnosis of a bad gall bladder and the actual surgery date, I ate zero fat, because I was so scared I'd feel even worse if I ate anything with any fat in it at all. So I ate lots of fat free carbs. I was still hurting though, and about the only thing that helped was constantly sipping on ginger ale, since ginger is supposed to be soothing to the stomach.



I'm now wondering if it was the constant carbs and all the sugar in the ginger ale that kept me hurting that entire time.


Eh, it probably was - wouldn't be the first time doctors have been wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #25   ^
Old Sat, Apr-06-19, 16:23
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Posts: 10,610
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default

In the book The Fiber Menace, I've read that it's the fiber in the carbs.
Reply With Quote
  #26   ^
Old Sun, Apr-07-19, 05:48
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,711
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/136/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
In the book The Fiber Menace, I've read that it's the fiber in the carbs.


Yes! And he points the finger at fiber for pancreatitis, too.

I just read his description of how the digestive system is, past the stomach and mouth, designed to be liquid. There are narrow apertures and tight turns. It isn’t until much later in the process that stuff bulks up for disposal. At the crucial mid-digestion phase, fiber forms clumps that interfere with its proper operation, all the way down.

In an era where we discover than sugar manufacturers manipulated the science (much like tobacco did) to get fat targeted as the cause of heart disease, is it any wonder their advice about fiber turns out to be tragically wrong, as well?

Salt, fat, fiber, sugar, grains, fruits, vegetables, MEAT. I have changed my attitudes on these dietary elements by 180 degrees. Everything I was told was wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #27   ^
Old Sun, Apr-07-19, 06:59
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,038
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Does he have an online resource about fiber ?? I still have more questions as fiber comes in many forms, like soluable, insoluable....
Reply With Quote
  #28   ^
Old Sun, Apr-07-19, 07:21
Calianna's Avatar
Calianna Calianna is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,222
 
Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Does he have an online resource about fiber ?? I still have more questions as fiber comes in many forms, like soluable, insoluable....

I googled for the book last night, and found a sample of it on Amazon books - was able to read the first 3 (or was it 4? More?) chapters. So at least that much is available for free online.



Interesting, and I see where fiber is responsible for a lot of problems, but (at least from the limited amount of the book I was able to access online) I'm wondering if at least some of those problems are more a matter of the excessive amount of carbs that are part and parcel of what you need to eat to get the amount of fiber THEY say you need.


For instance, the short paragraph about gall bladder problems in the part I read - that particular paragraph didn't specify fiber, or how it was involved in the formation of gall stones. Maybe fiber has something to do with it, but when I think about it, you need to eat about 3-10 times as many grams of total carbs to get the couple grams of fiber that an apple or slice of whole wheat bread provides. For the total RDA for carbs (300 g) compared to the total g of fiber recommended (30-35), you're talking about nearly 10 times as many total g of carb as fiber. Cut out the carbs, and you're cutting out the vast majority of fiber.



There may have been a lot more evidence in the portion of the book I wasn't able to read though - I may need to download the rest of the book at some point to see what else he has to say about it. I'm not saying that fiber has nothing to do with any of it (particularly when it comes to intestinal problems - that part I wholeheartedly agree with) - but based on what little I was able to read, I think the bigger problem is the sheer amount of carbs you need to swallow in order to get the RDA of fiber, unless you're willing to add bran and metamucil to pretty much everything you eat - and if you do that, you're going to end up with all the intestinal problems he mentioned.
Reply With Quote
  #29   ^
Old Sun, Apr-07-19, 07:27
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,711
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/136/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: USA
Default

The whole book is available free, on his site:

Fiber Menace

I agree that carbs are a big part of the fiber equation. Eating ketogenically comes with a low fiber load. From the book intro:

Quote:
That's why just a generation ago, avoiding fiber was the quintessence of prudent nutrition. Caring parents everywhere, American and European alike, were earnestly peeling fruits (apples, peaches, pears, prunes) and skinning vegetables (tomatoes, peppers, eggplant, potatoes) before giving them to children or eating them themselves. The French and Italians still do it. And the Japanese diet is practically fiber-free.

Americans, on the other hand, are urged to consume 30 to 40 grams of dietary fiber daily, regardless of their age and health.

Last edited by WereBear : Sun, Apr-07-19 at 07:33. Reason: Submitted too soon
Reply With Quote
  #30   ^
Old Sun, Apr-07-19, 07:38
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,711
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/136/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: USA
Default

The whole “saturated fat is bad” idea was an earthquake in nutrition that changed every aspect of the Western Civilization diet.

Too bad it was completely wrong.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 00:12.


Copyright © 2000-2019 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.