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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Apr-02-19, 10:30
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
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Default Rapid Weight Loss Causes Gall Stones??????

A google search brought this up--- NEVER encountered this subject until now.

Quote:
As the body metabolizes fat during rapid weight loss, it causes the liver to secrete extra cholesterol into bile, which can cause gallstones. Fasting. Fasting decreases gallbladder movement, which causes the bile to become overconcentrated with cholesterol. Gallstones | Johns Hopkins Medicine Health Library https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...tones_85,p00841


Unfortunately the time of "fasting" has not been defined here. What are the risks for a 24 hour 23/1 fast, or a 36??

This is not in DANDR, probably because fasting was not discussed beyond Fat Fasts----

Is Johns Hopkins information correct?????

Dr Berg's take on the subject___
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W8gASMBz_I
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Apr-02-19, 10:39
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,155
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Dr. Fung's answer:

Quote:
Have there been any adverse effects with the gallbladder and fasting in your experience? I had done a 14 day, 500cal/day, no fat diet and when I went back to low carb diet I had exteme pain in the gall bladder region, when I ate fats again. I am concerened about having this pain reoccur with fasting, as the gall bladder would not be working, (no need to produce bile), as I would not be eating anything. What are your thoughts?

We have not yet had any problems with gallstones or biliary colic during fasting. I have not yet found any discussion of gallbladder problems with fasting, and literally millions of people fast regularly
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Apr-02-19, 12:43
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
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Thanks Janet!!

Hard to beleive our survival over the ages would create anything but a well functioning gall bladder!!

Found Dr. Ken Barry's take on the situation. He goes so far as to say bile is only used for saturated fats. Hmm bet the number of gall bladder surgerys for gall stones has shot up over the last 40 years!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgO7gIaG_Zg
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  #4   ^
Old Tue, Apr-02-19, 13:31
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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Fasting can do funny things. My first full day fast, I woke up at 1 in the morning and vomited yellow bile. I was already on a fairly high fat diet, and ate very regularly, I sort of suspect my body had a rhythm of bile secretion that was connected to my usual eating times. Or something. This never happened again.

What Dr Barry's saying--I think he may be taking some license in that he thinks our "intended" diet is one of saturated fat, so the digestion of saturated fat is what bile is "for."

Quote:
The effect of polyunsaturated fats on bile acid metabolism and cholelithiasis in squirrel monkeys.
Melchior GW, Lofland HB, St Clair RW.
Abstract
Squirrel monkeys (Saimiri sciureus) were fed diets containing safflower oil, butter, or coconut oil and 1 mg cholesterol/cal for 15--17 mo to examine the effect of type of fat on cholelithiasis and bile acid metabolism. Controls were fed low cholesterol diets containing an isocaloric mixture of the three fats. Cholic acid fractional catabolic rate, pool size, chenodeoxycholic acid pool size, and total bile acid pool size and excretion rate were estimated using a modification of Lindstedt's isotopic turnover procedure. The animals fed the safflower oil diet had the highest incidence of cholelithiasis (9/10) when compared to those fed butter (3/7) and coconut oil (1/7). Animals consuming the low cholesterol control diet did not develop gallstones. The butter- and coconut oil-fed groups had significantly (p less than 0.05) expanded bile acid pools when compared to controls, and the butter-fed group had a significantly increased (p less than 0.05) cholic acid fractional catabolic rate. The safflower oil group had the smallest mean bile acid pool and the highest mean lithogenic index of the cholesterol-fed groups. It was concluded that the safflower oil-fed animals had a higher incidence of cholelithiasis than the butter group because, unlike the latter group, they did not compensate for a high cholesterol intake by stimulating bile acid synthesis. The animals consuming coconut oil apparently did not absorb cholesterol to the extent of the other groups and as a result their bile did not become saturated with cholesterol.


Squirrel monkeys... but perhaps some relevance to human beings, and the evidence that a low calorie diet that is also low in fat might increase gallstones.
In the monkeys, at least--saturated fat increasing bile production versus safflower, and this preventing gallstones on a high cholesterol diet is interesting, since their natural sources of dietary saturated fat would also be their natural sources of dietary cholesterol.

If it's normal to dispose of some excess cholesterol through the gallbladder, and if bile acid is needed to be above a certain level to prevent stone formation in this situation--you could see, in a long-term adaptation sense, why people on the SAD diet might develop a problem on a low fat diet, even though there are populations on extremely low fat diets without this problem. If bile is needed for several purposes, but most of your life, you've eaten enough fat that the signal for production from the fat consumed is sufficient for all purposes, the body becomes a poor regulator when that signal is absent. That is, a fasting creature still needs sufficient bile acid to prevent stone formation, but a lifetime of very little fasting means that the genetic/physiological programming for that state never quite got unpacked. Blah blah blah epigenetics and appropriate sciencey stuff.
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  #5   ^
Old Tue, Apr-02-19, 14:01
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
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All good stuff.

My previous understanding was that bile managed the digestion of all fats. The "saturated" fats Dr B mentioned might be because so many have become anti- saturated fat, and his point was we can eat saturated fats.

Ive always thought fat is good for us. And thought the gall bladder was kept healthier by eating some fat.

Thanks for all the good stuff found in that study!
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  #6   ^
Old Tue, Apr-02-19, 14:20
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Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
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I have read that most people on high carb diets are pretending to be healthy by trying to eat lean meats if any meat at all. It's the none use of the gallbladder that causes it to stop working correctly. Use it or loose it. Then they'll have it removed and keep eating that death diet.

Also, Fiber Menace book said that fiber gums up the gallbladder.

Last edited by Meme#1 : Tue, Apr-02-19 at 14:30.
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  #7   ^
Old Tue, Apr-02-19, 15:07
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
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Yes, " use it or lose it" Apparently the medical community are drumming up business with the low fat craze. ( grin)

Good thing my fiber is limited to a serving of flax a day for the estrogen, and any other fiber is from fruit and veggies. Scallions have a surprising amount of "chew" , lol

Can you expand on the details from the FIber Menace book? My wish list is already too long to add another book at this time.
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  #8   ^
Old Tue, Apr-02-19, 15:54
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Yes, " use it or lose it" Apparently the medical community are drumming up business with the low fat craze. ( grin)

Good thing my fiber is limited to a serving of flax a day for the estrogen, and any other fiber is from fruit and veggies. Scallions have a surprising amount of "chew" , lol

Can you expand on the details from the FIber Menace book? My wish list is already too long to add another book at this time.


I can't remember word for word but it had something to do with the connection of the gall bladder getting gummed up.
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  #9   ^
Old Wed, Apr-03-19, 05:59
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
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k.

Perhaps it is what is in the Dr Barry video-- without use the bile material concentrates and becomes a thickened mass that is very difficult to expel thru the narrow tubing meant for a thin viscous fluid. It is all about the carbs: low fat SAD diet, according to Dr B, causes the development of the sludge.

Eating fats keeps the bile squirting out !
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  #10   ^
Old Wed, Apr-03-19, 06:34
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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It's possible a low fat diet keeps the gallbladder on alert for a signal that comes too rarely. While sufficient fat in the diet puts it in a better state: often called upon, but then it can be asleep when food is absent.

High carb consumption throws off so many systems.
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, Apr-04-19, 07:39
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Calianna Calianna is offline
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Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
k.

Perhaps it is what is in the Dr Barry video-- without use the bile material concentrates and becomes a thickened mass that is very difficult to expel thru the narrow tubing meant for a thin viscous fluid. It is all about the carbs: low fat SAD diet, according to Dr B, causes the development of the sludge.

Eating fats keeps the bile squirting out !





Stones, grit, pebbles, sludge - whatever you call it, this is pretty much what happens when you eat too low fat for too long. At some point when you eat some extra fat again, the gall bladder tries to do what it's meant to do, and the ducts get clogged with all that sludge , causing pain and vomiting.

[ETA: I experienced this in my early 40's, and had my gall bladder removed - it's considered to be the 3-F problem: Forty, Fat, Female]


I was of course told to eat low fat forever to avoid having problems with undigested fats. At some point even the most vigilant of low fat dieters is going to increase their fat intake. Good thing that having your gall bladder removed doesn't necessarily mean you're really stuck with a lifetime of low fat eating. Mine was removed about 25 years ago, and I now eat lots of fat with no problem.



From what I understand, over time, the duct from the liver develops a little pouch which stores extra bile, and acts almost like a replacement gall bladder. Granted, it was probably almost 10 years after my gall bladder was removed before I went LC and significantly upped my fat intake, but apparently I'd been eating extra fat often enough and long enough on a high carb diet to develop that bile storage pouch, which seems to work adequately to digest all the fats I eat.
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Apr-04-19, 08:08
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
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Im thrilled that your body adapted to the situaton and you can eat fat normally.

My understanding is that the bile continues to be produced and just keep dribbling into the intestines; your "replacement" gall bladder theory is remarkable.

The body is amazing--doctors mess with it far too much!
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Apr-04-19, 10:58
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Calianna Calianna is offline
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Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Im thrilled that your body adapted to the situaton and you can eat fat normally.

My understanding is that the bile continues to be produced and just keep dribbling into the intestines; your "replacement" gall bladder theory is remarkable.

The body is amazing--doctors mess with it far too much!



While I certainly can't say for sure that I've developed some kind of bile storing pouch over the years, that was just something I remember reading a few years ago, offered as an explanation for how even those who have had their gall bladders removed could eat an occasional high fat meal without becoming sick.



On the other hand, it could be that removing the gall bladder disrupts the bile release signaling system so much that the liver constantly trickles a bit more bile than before, whether you're eating or not, so that there will always be enough bile to handle a higher fat meal.



It's not like they told me a certain number of grams of fat to not exceed per meal. They just said to eat a low fat diet, since I didn't have the gall bladder to handle excess fats. But what's excess fats? I may eat a lot of fats now, but I don't consider them to be in excess, I consider them to be the amount I need on a LC diet.
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  #14   ^
Old Thu, Apr-04-19, 11:49
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
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Whatever method your liver used, it is very cool to have it function well.

The liver is an organ with great regenerative powers. In a college advanced biology class experiment, the removal of one lobe of the liver resulted in a regrowth in a matter of months. My first into that our bodies are wonderous, and can do much more than modern medicine credits.

Sometimes, more often than not, the doctors need to go back to school. Removing a gall bladder should be the LAST option.

I was fortunate, sort of, that after a few days of low fat, low calorie dieting in the late 70's, early 80's, I quit trying to diet at all. Ate everything. One saving grace is that my gall bladder got a good work out.

The "bad" is that there is likely damage to nerves and fine capillaries. I have asked for years about occassional numbness in fingers, and get blown off...... while it certainly could be nothing serious, I now read it as a wake up call.

Traded one issue for another.
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, Apr-04-19, 16:36
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Before low fat, doctors would “clean out” the gall bladder and let it heal. It was considered a vital organ.
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