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  #1   ^
Old Sun, Nov-25-18, 06:02
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default Tom Naughton at WAPF Conference

Excellent and entertaining:

http://www.fathead-movie.com/index....s-2018-version/

Edited to add: While Tom presents this information in a humorous way, and much of what he states is known by many on this forum, I can relate in particular to the "wisdom of crowds" and "vision of the anointed" points in particular. For those who frequent this forum, we are the crowd in this case and due to the N=1 experiences and the shared information here have much knowledge that at one time conflicted with the "expert" advice of the anointed. It's changing as the ever increasing crowd is pushing knowledge and experiences back to the "experts." The dynamic is interesting as this is how things get changed when widely accepted beliefs and ideas are refuted by empirical experiences.

It's a phased progression of behavior changes that I've written about before and much of it due to the dynamics of the "wisdom of crowd" refuting the "vision of the anointed":

Quote:
We are now starting the transition to Phase 3 in the 4 phases of adopting a new dietary and nutrition belief system:

Phase 1) Individual believers who adopt changes on their own with little research and only N=1 experiences. Grass roots. This can be encouraged by early adopters or experts who risk reputation and credibility like Banting, Atkins, Bernstein, Westman, Taubes and others.

Phase 2) Some experts from the medical and research communities start to confirm research in clinical settings (Westman, Atkins, Unwin, Hallberg, Gerber, Cummins, Phinney, Volek, Fung, D'Agostino, etc.) fueling broader adoption of N=1 individuals and generating some media recognition, publications, videos in the process. This phase starts to reach more people who are frustrated with current, ineffective recommendations like the DGA. I believe we are in the latter stages of Phase 2 today.

Phase 3) Work and recognition from Phases 1&2 start to become adopted by additional organizations who are more risk averse when lending credibility to methods against which they have campaigned in the past. Broader acceptance by the public results in increased awareness of physicians and food manufacturers race to produce products that are "friendly" with this new approach (keto friendly, Paleo friendly, Whole30 friendly, etc.) Dr. Oz has segments on his show strictly due to increased popularity to maintain relevance for his viewers (the ultimate indicator that we're in Phase 3!).

Phase 4) Broad adoption and recognition by the public, the medical community, food manufacturers, and other laymen. The pharmaceutical industry will force new drugs on the market to protect their revenue streams, but the tide turns when people realize they can achieve better health with whole foods and not a prescription. The DGAs are updated to recognize the various WOE that achieve health and eliminate all the myths about fats and substitute sugar, sugar producing, and processed foods as the negatives for consumption.

Last edited by GRB5111 : Sun, Nov-25-18 at 09:38.
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  #2   ^
Old Sat, Dec-08-18, 22:05
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
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Plan: Primal
Stats: 171/155/155 Female 5'7"
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Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Default

I bookmarked this and finally got around to watching it. Wow, what a great talk. Funny and poignant. It can be a real downer to be part of the minority who dare to doubt The Anointed, so this was a nice morale boost.
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  #3   ^
Old Sun, Dec-09-18, 09:25
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,911
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Yes, it can be lonely at first, but with good individual results and the positive feedback stream that comes from a continually growing group makes it all worthwhile.
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  #4   ^
Old Sun, Dec-09-18, 10:48
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Location: Ontario
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I'm sort of iffy about the "wisdom of crowds" versus the "anointed" narrative. A lot of the time it comes down to who do you trust--instead of what do you trust. It's the quality of the evidence that matters. I commented on a political meme a friend posted on facebook yesterday, something a Canadian politician was supposed to have said. It was worded in a stupid way that couldn't possibly have failed to offend people--the wording was such that Canadian newspapers of a certain political bent couldn't have failed to report on it--yet the only place I could find the statement was in the meme and people quoting the meme.

I pointed this out, and my friend said he'd remove the meme if nobody could find proof it was authentic in a reasonable amount of time. And somebody showed up saying that even if it was never said, it was the sort of thing the politician probably would have said, so it was true in a way. I've seen this argument before.

I can't trust me I have to be very paranoid about why I lean towards believing something.
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  #5   ^
Old Sun, Dec-09-18, 11:33
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,911
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Agree regarding the "wisdom of crowds" in the sense that if we focus strictly on nutrition, it's taking a long time for the "crowd" to react and adjust to the advice dispensed by the "anointed." I do believe in the "anointed" dynamic, however, as there are many who feel life would be better if they were to tell people what to believe and how to live. We see this everywhere, especially in elected officials or those retained to advise them. Thomas Sowell's "Vision of the Anointed: Self Congratulation as a Basis for Social Policy" is a well-constructed premise with which I've become very familiar. While he didn't say it in exactly these words, it's a sound argument for rational skepticism.
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  #6   ^
Old Sun, Dec-09-18, 12:30
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Yes, I'm all for distrusting the anointed. I just don't see our distrust as the basis for believing or disbelieving their claims.
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  #7   ^
Old Sun, Dec-09-18, 21:05
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
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Default

Rob, crowd response used to be very slow, now it's lightning quick cuz of intarwebs. However, it's only quick for those of us, like everybody on this forum for example cuz we're on the webs ya, who actually check those intarwebs. It's still snail pace for the rest of us, cuz TV monolith and such.

On the tangent of who can you trust, consider that the effort put into old school reporting used to be tremendous cuz it was more or less a monopoly, thus highly profitable. Today, there's so little profit cuz of mass switch from traditional outlets to those famous intarwebs (which isn't a monopoly by far, though some have tried real hard, and failed, i.e. AoL), even long standing respectable institutions publish utter garbage just for clicks. So, the balance of trust got equalized in favor of n=1's, not that n=1's are now more trustworthy, but big houses are now less so. Grammar and syntax and logical errors are common these days, even from the big names. It's as if everybody suddenly forgot how to read and write correctly, all at once. Never mind the rampant absence of fact checking or the wholly single-sided-mass-distributed-press-release-turned-pseudo-genuine-reporting (there's a term for that, I forgot, but even an idjit can recognize it once he reads the exact same word-for-word "article" from two separate sources, typically authored "AP" for Associated Press, which used to mean something but now it's just a mouthpiece for somebody else).

I like Tom, he's funny and makes a lot of sense in that lecture (or stand-up? he is a comedian). But then I'm highly biased and probably just aware of the topic and that's why he's funny to me. Not sure it would go that well for somebody who's hardcore about arterycloggingsaturatedfat and hearthealthywholegrains, a few of which I've personally met and I promise you nothing will change their mind no matter how sick and fat they get. The moment the video ended, I thought to send the link to a few people I figure would enjoy it at least, if not learn anything from it. But then I thought, I dunno what I thought, it's not like I know how they'll take it. Put that idea aside for now.

The one thing that sticks out to me is the Anointed telling us to shaddup, which they do in every way imaginable. And I agree with Tom that it ain't gonna happen no way no how, cuz intarwebs and such, ya. Anybody remember the public request for comments about the upcoming nutritional guidelines "overhaul"? Well, that's one way they tried. This would be the "I'll let you speak your mind to give you the illusion that I'm listening so you'll finally shut up about that, then I'll do what I want" strategy, which it was and which they did. Actually, another thing sticks out. Tom said he's not trying to change the guidelines, he's trying to convince us to stop listening to them. Doesn't have to convince me, but that's just brilliant.

Teaser, it's the other way round. Their claims are retarded cuz in-my-face personal experience, that's why distrust. I mean I get you, I'm just saying.
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, Dec-10-18, 09:23
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 2,911
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Good thoughts, Martin . . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
Rob, crowd response used to be very slow, now it's lightning quick cuz of intarwebs. However, it's only quick for those of us, like everybody on this forum for example cuz we're on the webs ya, who actually check those intarwebs. It's still snail pace for the rest of us, cuz TV monolith and such.

I believe the "big" information that is distant from most paying attention to everyday life, such as details of health and nutrition, is dispensed by the "experts" and supported by the "anointed" takes a long time to change. This is the current nature of our world. To change this it's a combination of new research, N=1 experiences, and the death of those "authorities/anointed" who embrace previously held beliefs. It's always a good idea to question authority to the point where one is satisfied that the authority knows about which they speak.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
On the tangent of who can you trust, consider that the effort put into old school reporting used to be tremendous cuz it was more or less a monopoly, thus highly profitable. Today, there's so little profit cuz of mass switch from traditional outlets to those famous intarwebs (which isn't a monopoly by far, though some have tried real hard, and failed, i.e. AoL), even long standing respectable institutions publish utter garbage just for clicks. So, the balance of trust got equalized in favor of n=1's, not that n=1's are now more trustworthy, but big houses are now less so. Grammar and syntax and logical errors are common these days, even from the big names.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
I like Tom, he's funny and makes a lot of sense in that lecture (or stand-up? he is a comedian). But then I'm highly biased and probably just aware of the topic and that's why he's funny to me. Not sure it would go that well for somebody who's hardcore about arterycloggingsaturatedfat and hearthealthywholegrains, a few of which I've personally met and I promise you nothing will change their mind no matter how sick and fat they get.

And that's why I posted the link in this forum. You're right, audience matters to topical humor and irony. The media is out of control due to the expanded competition. The principles of journalism, if ever followed rigorously, are now completely gone, particularly attribution of information to the correct person. Grammar? We no longer know what that is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
The one thing that sticks out to me is the Anointed telling us to shaddup, which they do in every way imaginable. And I agree with Tom that it ain't gonna happen no way no how, cuz intarwebs and such, ya. Anybody remember the public request for comments about the upcoming nutritional guidelines "overhaul"? Well, that's one way they tried. This would be the "I'll let you speak your mind to give you the illusion that I'm listening so you'll finally shut up about that, then I'll do what I want" strategy, which it was and which they did.

I think that's exactly how this has worked in the past and don't see anything changing until reputations and employment are threatened by new, widely held beliefs based on new findings.
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  #9   ^
Old Mon, Dec-10-18, 09:23
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,122
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Watched this not long after checking the few FB pages I follow that include hashtags like #transformationtuesday and faceliftfriday with some seriously stunning weight loss and health improvements in a matter of months. The bloggers and FB pages that provide a safe place to share these success stories have exploded, contributing to the wisdom of crowds. Excellent update of Tom's talk.
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  #10   ^
Old Tue, Dec-11-18, 05:33
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,122
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Tom has been exploring his further thoughts and comments about this talk, with more quotes from libertarian economic and thought leaders. The series The Anointed, The Experts, And Knowledge … is now up to Four parts, on his blog since posting this updated talk. Yesterday was part four. http://www.fathead-movie.com if you want to dig further into Black Swans and Anti-Fragility, continue reading after watching this video.

First Quote in part 4:
Quote:
For real people, if something works in theory, but not in practice, it doesn’t work. For academics, if something works in practice, but not in theory, it doesn’t exist. – Nassim Nicholas Taleb


Quote from part 3:
Quote:
That’s why I’m more likely to listen to doctors like Mike and Mary Dan Eades than to an academic researcher at Harvard. Sure, Drs. Eades and Eades read a lot of studies. They’re fluent in the science. But more importantly, they’ve treated thousands of patients and seen the results. If they tell me their patients lost weight more easily on a low-carb diet, that’s experience talking. I don’t particularly care if they can explain exactly why it happens.


Why I listen to Dr. Westman, he has done both the clinical research and worked with thousands of patients in a free-living clinic setting, his FB support group daily has success stories of following the "uncomplicated keto" of "page 4".

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, Dec-11-18 at 05:42.
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  #11   ^
Old Tue, Dec-11-18, 18:27
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,485
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

That's a beautiful quote, Janet. It's exactly how we do it on this forum. What works, duh, works. I mean, some of us (like myself) are interested in the whys and the hows and we debate that stuff endlessly, but when it works, that's all anybody really needs to know. And pretty much all of that knowledge comes from regular folks, or at least from empirical evidence derived from experience like from all the low-carb docs we're aware of, i.e. Atkins et al.

As I was arguing with myself thinking about this, I figured that an explicit set of instructions, like a diet book for example, is not required. We naturally derive the appropriate instructions for ourselves just from reading about such and such experience with something. Since we're mostly dealing with food here, every one of us had to figure out some new recipes, and some of us have become really really good and prolific at that, without anything approaching expertise or a PhD to begin with. We've even developed a few genuinely scientificy stuff like the elimination diet which is actually the scientific principle of eliminating, or controlling for, confounding variables.

See what I mean by "interested in the whys and the hows"? Hehe.
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  #12   ^
Old Wed, Dec-12-18, 17:41
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
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Location: Massachusetts
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Dr mark hyman was talking today on how we can influence the doctors. First find one willing to work collaboratively, then we the patient bring info to the table. Educating the doc. Another way to keep moving the mefucal machine, if only a little.As not many are collaborative type docs.
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Dec-13-18, 11:46
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Cinders411 Cinders411 is offline
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Plan: Atkins Low Carb
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That was great. I remember how life changing Fat Head was and also how good the Fat Head pizza crust is LOL!
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