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  #16   ^
Old Wed, Aug-08-18, 21:30
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,433
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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There's no such thing as a good gut bug. All pathogens are opportunistic. They will spread given the opportunity - a compromised immune system (however this is achieved, a cut on the skin, there we go). Once they do, the perception that any of them are good certainly doesn't hold anymore, does it.

What we eat means what they eat. However, what we eat is what we eat first and foremost. Choose a diet based on direct effect on ourselves. Gut bugs and their diversity and so forth will invariably change. Some will die off, some will remain, others will come in and settle. Incidentally, that is one aspect of going low-carb, existing gut bugs that used to feed on carbs can no longer do so, they die off, we feel it as induction flu.

But remember, we go low-carb not for them, but for ourselves. The starch and glucose and gluten has a direct effect on us, never mind the bugs. One such effect is to compromise our immune system. Do that for the first decades of our lives, before we figure it out and go low-carb. That's how it is for most of us here. How many of us have noticed fewer symptoms of flu and colds and other common infections, or just fewer instances of infection? That's what low-carb does, that's what carbs do.

Now imagine someone like me who has supressed his immune system to zero, say for a clinical trial as a test subject for an immuno-suppressant. Near-perfect health to start, whatever good gut bugs certainly aren't good anymore, they spread. I'm nobody special, this is happening to everybody who's immune system is compromised to some degree. I'm kinda lucky that they didn't spread that much before I went low-carb, health was restored quite fully then. But low-carb doesn't protect against that immuno-suppressant, it's quite a powerful drug. Accordingly, low-carb won't do much to treat those gut bugs which have spread before we went low-carb. Oh sure, low-carb certainly makes things better, but when gut bugs spread, they spread to organs and tissues that just can't handle them no matter how well we eat.

There's the idea that some organs' unique purpose is to be host to bugs. Tonsils, appendix, the colon, maybe even the skin though in a different fashion. For the appendix for example, the local immune system is extremely strong, strong enough to keep them there, to make sure they don't spread. This tells us that no other tissue is capable of doing that. Would the liver for example be able to handle that? The point here is that those special organs are perpetually infected, yet the infection doesn't spread. No such thing as a good gut bug.
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  #17   ^
Old Wed, Aug-08-18, 21:30
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 9,318
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle

The recovery time of both methods are not without issues. Each can have its comp lications.



Yes, I prefer the zipper method!
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  #18   ^
Old Wed, Aug-08-18, 21:48
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Posts: 8,963
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
There's no such thing as a good gut bug. All pathogens are opportunistic.


Im not sure I entirely understand your take on microbiome, of the gut. For clarity, not all microbes in the body or in the gut are pathogens. Only those that are problematic are pathogens, ie E. coli

The population reflects a number of factors. The proportion of each type is very much dependent on the foods it gets to eat. The goal is to keep the beneficail ones in good numbers, and the lesser ones, and even the problematic ones, as a lower percentage. Not zeroed out. Just low enough to not cause a problem for the host.
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  #19   ^
Old Wed, Aug-08-18, 23:24
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,433
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Im not sure I entirely understand your take on microbiome, of the gut. For clarity, not all microbes in the body or in the gut are pathogens. Only those that are problematic are pathogens, ie E. coli

The population reflects a number of factors. The proportion of each type is very much dependent on the foods it gets to eat. The goal is to keep the beneficail ones in good numbers, and the lesser ones, and even the problematic ones, as a lower percentage. Not zeroed out. Just low enough to not cause a problem for the host.

Yes, I understand that point of view clearly. I just disagree. Pathogen means to create disease, it's not a property of the thing but a property of the effect. When a gut bug spreads to tissues not adapted to handle them, it creates disease. Gut bugs we see as good instantly turn bad when they spread to the liver or the pancreas or the lungs.
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  #20   ^
Old Thu, Aug-09-18, 06:29
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 12,998
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Well, there's no such thing as a good dog, if it's just ripped out your throat and is now dining on your spleen. That doesn't mean that dogs aren't tremendous benefit to humanity.
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  #21   ^
Old Thu, Aug-09-18, 10:08
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
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Posts: 8,963
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
Yes, I understand that point of view clearly. I just disagree. Pathogen means to create disease, it's not a property of the thing but a property of the effect. When a gut bug spreads to tissues not adapted to handle them, it creates disease. Gut bugs we see as good instantly turn bad when they spread to the liver or the pancreas or the lungs.


Since not all microbes are pathogens, then how does the body regulate and control the location of the microbes. WHat is located in one area is a different ratio than another area. When we have super clean bodies, we get more sick. Having the right mix keeps us healthy. SKin, mouth, GI, Vagina, etc. Having the right good microbiome keeps the bad ones in check.

What am I missing in how you see this?
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  #22   ^
Old Thu, Aug-09-18, 10:43
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,433
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Well, there's no such thing as a good dog, if it's just ripped out your throat and is now dining on your spleen. That doesn't mean that dogs aren't tremendous benefit to humanity.

Look, I understand, don't need any more explanation. So maybe you're just trying to convince me at this point? I've been over this several times already in a few threads. I disagree, that's that.

But think about this. Every article, blog post or whatever is written with the premise of good (beneficial) and bad (detrimental) gut bugs, never with the premise I presented (all gut bugs are opportunistic). The whole global discussion about gut bugs is from the good vs bad premise. Nobody goes "hey, maybe that premise is wrong". How is that even possible? So yeah, you just think about that.
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  #23   ^
Old Thu, Aug-09-18, 10:51
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NewRuth NewRuth is offline
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Posts: 2,660
 
Plan: LC gut healing
Stats: 302/285/165 Female 5'3"
BF:Irrelevant
Progress: 12%
Location: Heartland of the USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
(That's a dusty journal you've got there! Is your plan still "LC gut healing"? If so, how is it going?)


"Gut healing" and "microbiome management" are pretty much the same things.

My experience supports the idea that our microbiome is important for how our bodies process food and our emotional response to things. I'm happy to see Dr. Gominak explain the complexity and interconnections between things. There's so much that we don't know, but people like her put the breadcrumbs together to make sense of things and find something that works. That's exciting.
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  #24   ^
Old Thu, Aug-09-18, 11:24
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,433
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Since not all microbes are pathogens, then how does the body regulate and control the location of the microbes. WHat is located in one area is a different ratio than another area. When we have super clean bodies, we get more sick. Having the right mix keeps us healthy. SKin, mouth, GI, Vagina, etc. Having the right good microbiome keeps the bad ones in check.

What am I missing in how you see this?

Look, if you can't see it, in spite of the lengthy explanation I provided, giving you more explanation is gonna sound like I'm trying to convince you, so I won't. Also, I try real hard not to be a jerk.

Instead, I'll show you how I question all the usual assumptions that have been drilled into me. I'll take one example from your post because I used to believe that too, but I don't anymore.

When we have super clean bodies, we get more sick.

I used to believe that too, but now I think it's absurd. So, how do we get more sick? Is it because we are naturally sick and the bugs somehow compensate? That's absurd, so that's not how we get more sick. The only other possible way is that the bugs continuously challenge our immune system, which in turn is now primed to handle other bugs or the same bugs in greater number or elsewhere. In effect, this is on-going immune training. It's the same principle with intentionally infecting kids with various childhood diseases, so that they don't die from that as an adult later on.

Let's go back to that on-going immune training. Before we come to any conclusion whatsoever about that, we can describe it as a chronic infection, because it is. But it's benign and asymptomatic. It's also precisely localized to tissues that can handle it. The immune system is continuously challenged, and is continuously fighting this infection. Indeed, that's likely the primary reason it's benign and asymptomatic. It's reasonable to expect something to happen if we suppressed the immune system, yes?

With the above, we've answered the question "how do we get more sick". But if you understand fully, we've also answered the question "do we get more sick". If we accept that it's a chronic infection, and we remove that by making our bodies super clean, the answer is unambiguous.

OK, I'm not trying to convince you here. I'm illustrating how it works in my brain when I question common beliefs and assumptions and premises. You know that thing we say "everybody knows that". Well, if that's what we say about it, there's a high chance I'll question it, and there's also a high chance I'll end up disagreeing with it, which is what happens here.
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  #25   ^
Old Thu, Aug-09-18, 11:41
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 8,963
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 32%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
Look, if you can't see it, in spite of the lengthy explanation I provided, giving you more explanation is gonna sound like I'm trying to convince you, so I won't..



Im sorry, I am honestly trying to understand. I stopped reading at this point.

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Thu, Aug-09-18 at 16:19.
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  #26   ^
Old Fri, Aug-10-18, 00:21
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,433
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Im sorry, I am honestly trying to understand. I stopped reading at this point.

Ms Arielle, I made a promise a long time ago that I would try real hard to not be a jerk here. I want to explain my point of view and I want others to understand, but if I keep this up here it's gonna make me look like a jerk. I see that you really want to understand and I really want to explain. I'm gonna write in my journal and you can join me there and I promise I will not be a jerk.
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