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  #31   ^
Old Wed, Jun-13-18, 09:21
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 12,981
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I'll throw in a few more that are causing great consternation in our own community, as they are polar opposites. But I think maybe they just misunderstand each other.

1 A fat bomb deficit.
2 A fat bomb surfeit.



I do find increasing fat bombs, or at least increasing the fat to carbs and protein (with carbs mostly gone) more effective for maintenance personally. But just adding fat bombs to whatever I'm already eating never worked. A shot or two of cream instead of another pork chop, not and another pork chop. People abhor fat because "calories do matter to some extent." I willingly concede that, but there's still a fight to be had over which calories to include. Of course protein is special, we need a certain amount a day. Once we get past that, all the stuff about "protein calories are bigger calories"--pull the other one. My food got denser when I went Atkins, denser still when I went keto. I'm not saying some people don't do better with much higher protein than I take in, just that I'm not really buying the idea that tricking yourself by eating moar food with less calories is what's going on.

I think it's possible, even likely, I'd be somewhat leaner if I ate the same calories I eat now, but replaced say 400 calories of fat with 100 grams of protein. Experience tells me I'd better be locked up. I'll be miserable, go to bed hungry, kind of lazy, and probably cheat/binge.
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  #32   ^
Old Wed, Jun-13-18, 09:51
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 12,981
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Self-sabotage. I'm suspicious of this one, it's too easy to say after the fact, why did I do this? and come up with "I must not want to succeed" or some such, when there are so many positive reasons to break your diet, be indulgent. If I buy peanuts, is that self-sabotage? Or am I buying the peanuts because something I'm doing is already not on-point? Is it sabotage, or symptom of my current metabolism? I'll more likely buy the peanuts if I shop hungry, or tired, or have been eating less ketogenically than usual.
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  #33   ^
Old Wed, Jun-13-18, 11:04
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BillyHW BillyHW is offline
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Posts: 378
 
Plan: Keto + IF
Stats: 260/300/165 Male 5' 6"
BF:
Progress: -42%
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Self-sabotage. I'm suspicious of this one, it's too easy to say after the fact, why did I do this? and come up with "I must not want to succeed" or some such, when there are so many positive reasons to break your diet, be indulgent. If I buy peanuts, is that self-sabotage? Or am I buying the peanuts because something I'm doing is already not on-point? Is it sabotage, or symptom of my current metabolism? I'll more likely buy the peanuts if I shop hungry, or tired, or have been eating less ketogenically than usual.


Peanuts aren't keto-friendly?
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  #34   ^
Old Wed, Jun-13-18, 11:27
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 12,981
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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They can be, very carefully measured.

I'm on a high-ratio keto diet, somewhere around 2.5-3:1 fat to protein plus carbohydrate ratio, with the protein plus carbs mostly protein. Not the usual keto prescription going around these days, more like what they give to kids for epilepsy. Going this tight helps me with some bipolar issues, seems to have an antidepressant effect and my original experiment with a really tight 4:1 ratio showed me that it totally obliviated my tendency to binge on things like peanuts and cheese (and maple syrup and honey...) that developed when I dieted down to 154 pounds on a more protein heavy, lower fat low carb diet. It also coincided with an end to hearing voices. That started in my mid 20's, usually worst when I was under stress, but there was always some residual effect--for instance, running heavy machinery, I'd hear people yelling in the next room (this includes when I was outside and there was no next room).

Anyways, peanuts are keto if you won't binge on them. If I'm very keto, I can eat nuts, peanuts, cheese, I just have to fit them into my ratios very carefully. My reward system seems to work better with keto, I can eat an ounce of peanuts as a snack and by happy with that. Out of keto I'd likely eat--my record is 700 grams of peanuts, 1.4 pounds, because that's the biggest package I've bought. There's a similar effect on alcohol--not that I binge on that, I don't have a tendency binge on it either. But I'll want to drink even less than usual when I'm on a high fat ratio.
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  #35   ^
Old Wed, Jun-13-18, 11:33
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BillyHW BillyHW is offline
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Posts: 378
 
Plan: Keto + IF
Stats: 260/300/165 Male 5' 6"
BF:
Progress: -42%
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Supersizing. Our portion sizes have increased, therefore we get fat.

Plate Sizes Increasing. The size of our plates has been increasing, so we've gotten fat. If we just used smaller plates we'd still be thin.
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  #36   ^
Old Wed, Jun-13-18, 13:39
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BillyHW BillyHW is offline
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Plan: Keto + IF
Stats: 260/300/165 Male 5' 6"
BF:
Progress: -42%
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Starvation Mode. You cut calories too much and now your body is in starvation mode, therefore you gained weight again and are fat.
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  #37   ^
Old Wed, Jun-13-18, 13:48
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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I'm just amazed at how many different ideas we came up with through the years.

As a side note, Billy, see if you can fit them according to their main hypothesis, insulin or calories, and see just how many there are on either side. I bet it's gonna be very lopsided.
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  #38   ^
Old Wed, Jun-13-18, 13:50
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teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 12,981
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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The starvation mode I most readily believe in is the post-weight loss sort, more caused by a successful loss of body fat than by habituation to a certain diet. Again mostly because that's how I've personally experienced things, but it is the sort of adaptation that's more studied, you can find lots on pubmed looking at changes in leptin, increases in energy efficiency with exercise, lowered basal metabolism, lowered thermogenic effect of food, etc.

I do think that there's an intercept with diet, with a little less confidence because there's all of one study looking at this, waiting for the final Nusi study to be finalized so we can see if the results were replicated. David Ludwig is involved in both studies, the first one showed that after weight loss, everybody losing on the same diet, switching to ketogenic maintenance resulted in a higher metabolism than a low fat diet. So far for me, at a lower body weight the diets all line up, the lower the insulin, the easier the maintenance.
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  #39   ^
Old Wed, Jun-13-18, 20:35
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BillyHW BillyHW is offline
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Plan: Keto + IF
Stats: 260/300/165 Male 5' 6"
BF:
Progress: -42%
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Not Pushing Away From The Table Soon Enough. If fat people just pushed away from the table sooner, they would not be fat.
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  #40   ^
Old Wed, Jun-13-18, 20:59
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BillyHW BillyHW is offline
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Posts: 378
 
Plan: Keto + IF
Stats: 260/300/165 Male 5' 6"
BF:
Progress: -42%
Location: Alberta, Canada
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No Fidgeting. Skinny people fidget. You don't fidget, therefore you are fat.
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  #41   ^
Old Thu, Jun-14-18, 04:16
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teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 12,981
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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That's a fun one. Like people can decide to be fidgety. Might as well tell somebody with tourette's their problem is they fidget too much.

Have we blamed buttertart-baking grandmothers yet?
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  #42   ^
Old Thu, Jun-14-18, 08:16
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Calianna Calianna is offline
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Plan: Atkins-ish (hypoglycemia)
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 50%
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Fidgeting - oh that's really a good one!

I work with a guy who makes me look thin. We're both self scan attendants at a grocery store. He fidgets constantly, - shifting from foot to foot, hands and arms in constant movement, and yet somehow that hasn't made him thin.

In addition to that, they recently updated the self scan system, and we no longer have the podium where we were able to make nearly all corrections at that screen - now we walk to each individual register to make each individual correction. With 10 registers under our watch (and only one attendant there at any given time) we're dashing from register to register almost constantly. It's not the least bit unusual for my pedometer to record 15,000+ steps daily. My co-worker is a good bit taller than I am, so he has a longer stride than I do, but he's still probably putting in at least 10,000 steps daily, just at work.

So there goes with the obesity theory that "If you'd just go for a walk every day, you wouldn't have a weight problem".
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  #43   ^
Old Thu, Jun-14-18, 23:01
BillyHW's Avatar
BillyHW BillyHW is offline
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Posts: 378
 
Plan: Keto + IF
Stats: 260/300/165 Male 5' 6"
BF:
Progress: -42%
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Video Games. Kids used to play outside. Now they are sitting inside playing video games, therefore they are fat.

Emotional Eating. You self-medicate with food because you are sad, therefore you are fat.
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  #44   ^
Old Fri, Jun-15-18, 05:48
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 12,981
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Meanwhile, the observation that depression caused a decrease in appetite and weight loss used to be more common, but that came before 29 flavours of medicinal Dorito's.

This reminds me of the bland foods not registering in obese animals/people stuff. In rodents, one of the measures they use for depression is the animal's liking for sweet. Not liking is interpreted as anhedonia, a deficit in feeling pleasure.

Quote:
Circumstances in which serotonin (5-HT) and noradrenaline (NA) are altered, such as in anxiety or depression, are associated with taste disturbances, indicating the importance of these transmitters in the determination of taste thresholds in health and disease. In this study, we show for the first time that human taste thresholds are plastic and are lowered by modulation of systemic monoamines. Measurement of taste function in healthy humans before and after a 5-HT reuptake inhibitor, NA reuptake inhibitor, or placebo showed that enhancing 5-HT significantly reduced the sucrose taste threshold by 27% and the quinine taste threshold by 53%. In contrast, enhancing NA significantly reduced bitter taste threshold by 39% and sour threshold by 22%.


http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/49/12664

Can't find anything in mice right now, but there're a number of studies like this showing an increased sweet threshold in depressed humans, or this one that shows that antidepressives can decrease the sweet threshold. When rodents are given the sweet preference test, there's a set percentage sugar in the water, if the sweet threshold increases, it might no longer be able to even notice that the water's been sweetened, it's not that it wouldn't like sweet, if you added enough sugar to get up above the animal's sweet threshold.

I find the depression-->obesity idea fairly reasonable, I might be biased because I got my fattest during a mixed depressive/schizo/mania. My first psychotic episode was a doozy.

Self-medication? Compensation might be a better term. Suppose I can't enjoy the simple food that might have kept me slim. I might be living on ice cream and french fries--but that skinny, mentally balanced person over there might be perfectly happy eating food that should taste good enough to me, but doesn't, due to effects of depression.
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  #45   ^
Old Mon, Jun-18-18, 21:50
BillyHW's Avatar
BillyHW BillyHW is offline
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Posts: 378
 
Plan: Keto + IF
Stats: 260/300/165 Male 5' 6"
BF:
Progress: -42%
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Antibiotics. They feed antibiotics to farm animals to make them fat, therefore antibiotics can make you fat. (My understanding is that it's pretty well established that antibiotics really do make farm animals fat, otherwise the farmers wouldn't be spending the money on them. All the explanations for this phenomenon though appear to be speculation, and no one really knows why.)
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