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  #31   ^
Old Mon, Mar-05-18, 04:10
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,509
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Yes, there are numbers all over the Virta Health blog. Here's one:
https://blog.virtahealth.com/the-ec...betes-reversal/
There is another post on the right..how much could a state save.

Dr Hallberg had new numbers in her talk at Breckinridge. The total economic burden is now estimated at 400 billion.

Heal Clinic had this generic article on diabetes drug costs https://healclinics.com/you-can-get...es-medications/

Last edited by JEY100 : Mon, Mar-05-18 at 04:20.
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  #32   ^
Old Mon, Mar-05-18, 12:19
Grav Grav is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 891
 
Plan: Banting
Stats: 302/185/187 Male 175cm
BF:
Progress: 102%
Location: New Zealand
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Awesome, thanks again Janet.
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  #33   ^
Old Mon, Mar-05-18, 15:14
bevangel's Avatar
bevangel bevangel is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 1,824
 
Plan: modified adkins (sort of)
Stats: 265/176/167 Female 68.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 91%
Location: Austin, TX
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Grav - I think somewhere you mentioned that you were looking for information supporting the financial benefits of LC. I just ran across this summary about a study that I thought you might find helpful. The summary mentions that 25% of 1580 people who responded to a survey about their LC eating experiences reported medication cost savings, with average monthly savings of $288 for these respondents
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  #34   ^
Old Sun, Mar-11-18, 03:24
Grav Grav is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 891
 
Plan: Banting
Stats: 302/185/187 Male 175cm
BF:
Progress: 102%
Location: New Zealand
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Update: the first draft is complete, at a total of 47 pages + cover. The content is pretty much set at this point, unless we get any breaking news over the next week like a Tim Noakes appeal verdict or something. The top-level list of sections reads like this:

* Introduction
* About LCHF
* Criticism of LCHF
* The evidence base
* Recommendations for change
* Benefits
* Conclusion
* References

I've spent much of this weekend re-verifying my references; pretty mind-numbing stuff, weeding out double-ups and so on, but I may as well do this right if I'm to do this at all. The reference count is now 167.

I went to a local printer this morning to get some details on the costs of printing and binding. I think I'll get two copies done next weekend, one for Dr Clark and another for myself for posterity. In the meantime I'm going to give myself and a couple of colleagues most of next week to proof-read this thing.

I'm sure this won't be the last time I say it, but thanks to everyone in this thread for their thoughts, links and support for this little project. I've made sure to include the lowcarber.org forum community in the acknowledgements subsection.
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  #35   ^
Old Sun, Mar-11-18, 06:36
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,509
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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47 pages! You missed your calling as a researcher and health advocate. He may want to hire you. And we thank you for sharing your story and enthusiasm.

Mention of the printer reminds me of the new DietDoctor brochure, and how simple it can be to share the basic Diet info. https://www.dietdoctor.com/wp-conte...folder_1803.pdf.
Remove the DD membership info (lower 2/3 of what becomes the backside of a triple folder) replace with NZ health clinic info or whatever.

Btw, happened to notice that the 2KetoDudes have a sub-forum on New Zealand. Not super active but a few folks sharing resources...recent post about pastured pork, lard, etc. https://www.ketogenicforums.com/c/community/new-zealand

Last edited by JEY100 : Sun, Mar-11-18 at 07:59.
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  #36   ^
Old Sun, Mar-11-18, 06:41
Just Jo's Avatar
Just Jo Just Jo is offline
A'72 Lifer Hard Core
Posts: 15,331
 
Plan: A'72 Induction Lifer + IF
Stats: 265/114/130 Female 5'4"
BF:Not so much now!
Progress: 112%
Location: South Central New Mexico
Question

Congrats on finishing your research paper!

Are you going to share your finished paper with us here (as a pdf)?? B/c you know I'd love to read it & probably everyone else here as well!
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  #37   ^
Old Sun, Mar-11-18, 10:32
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is online now
Posts: 2,411
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Grav, sounds like you've written an excellent reference paper for LCHF. I'm sure it will be an effective resource in your meeting and something you can leave with people for further information consumption. It might be a useful booklet for others at some point as well. Thanks for keeping us abreast of your progress. We're behind you all the way.
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  #38   ^
Old Sun, Mar-11-18, 10:57
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is online now
Posts: 6,887
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/205/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 102%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
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Awesome work, dude! Can you print this to a pdf and post or pm me a link. I'd love to read what I'm sure is a fabulous argument for a better WOE.
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  #39   ^
Old Mon, Mar-12-18, 02:48
Grav Grav is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 891
 
Plan: Banting
Stats: 302/185/187 Male 175cm
BF:
Progress: 102%
Location: New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Jo
Are you going to share your finished paper with us here (as a pdf)?? B/c you know I'd love to read it & probably everyone else here as well!
Quote:
Originally Posted by khrussva
Can you print this to a pdf and post or pm me a link. I'd love to read what I'm sure is a fabulous argument for a better WOE.

I wondered if this might happen.

In all seriousness, I think it's appropriate that Dr Clark be the one to see it first; it really was written for him first and foremost, and it is personally addressed to him on the cover.

The idea of putting a more serious styled document out there with my name on it is also a bit scary to me. I can look back and feel comfortable about my DD story for example, as that's pretty much just about me and my experiences. But the stakes are so much higher this time; now I'm making all sorts of claims about all sorts of things which will inevitably attract feedback of all kinds which I'm a bit nervous about having to deal with. I've argued on the internet plenty of times before of course, but never under my real name.

It's for this reason that I think I'd probably have felt more comfortable writing a book than a government policy proposal, if I felt that (a) I was capable of writing one and (b) anyone would bother to read it. Something like what I've done here feels like a logical next step up in scale though, and I already know it will see the direct personal attention of the Health Minister himself, so I figure I'm getting decent value for effort on this one, at least.

I think what I'll probably do in a couple of weeks once I've had the meeting with Dr Clark, is upload the PDF to Dropbox and link to it here for a limited period of time. That way, people who have a genuine interest in it can grab a copy, hopefully without the side effects of mass circulation (at least not so quickly, anyway).
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  #40   ^
Old Fri, Mar-16-18, 18:06
Grav Grav is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 891
 
Plan: Banting
Stats: 302/185/187 Male 175cm
BF:
Progress: 102%
Location: New Zealand
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Update: I've spent most of the last week proofing everything, and was still making little changes here and there right up until this morning. Now though, printing and binding is done. I have two copies, one for Dr Clark and one for me.



I'm really happy with the quality too. I was worried that some of the images I'd used from the web would come out a bit fuzzy in the end, but I've used good quality paper and the printer has worked his full colour magic. To have it in my hands now is pretty exciting!

The appointment itself is now less than a week away. For anyone wanting a sneak peek in the meantime, I've put together a compilation of some of the science from the proposal and included it with my submission for the 2020 DGAs. I'll post the full document next week.
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  #41   ^
Old Fri, Mar-16-18, 23:29
ImOnMyWay's Avatar
ImOnMyWay ImOnMyWay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,787
 
Plan: OWL
Stats: 177/148.6/135 Female 5'2"
BF:50.5/39/25
Progress: 68%
Location: Oregon, Los Angeles
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First of all, let me say I'm most impressed by your having secured this meeting. Also, I admire your activism.

There are other people here who are better informed about LC research, so I don't have anything to add there, but here's a technique that might help you in your interview:

mirroring of body language

Do a little research on this - I've used it many times in the past to improve rapport with others. Here's the wikipedia article:

Mirroring

Practice a little on other people before your meeting. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

He may do this himself. Politicians often do, so he might recognize the technique, but if you're smooth about it, it won't be offensive.

See e.g. this video on

How to mirror body language

it gives some good tips.

Another thing that is really helpful: Give him your total attention. Don't be looking all over the room, or at his clothes, or internally, or wherever. At that moment, he's the only person in the world. Politicians do this too. Be totally in the moment. A morning workout, like yoga, can help you be centered and calm later in the day.

You are doing your homework, so you will show up prepared. At that point, you can relax, be in the moment, and enjoy this civic adventure.

Oh, and it never hurts to be well groomed. Check out this thread on men's suits:

Suits (mostly men)

Go get 'em, Tiger!
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  #42   ^
Old Fri, Mar-23-18, 03:20
Grav Grav is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 891
 
Plan: Banting
Stats: 302/185/187 Male 175cm
BF:
Progress: 102%
Location: New Zealand
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Result: meeting accomplished!

It happened at 12:30pm today, local time. I was told beforehand I would have 20 minutes, but unfortunately he was running late and had somewhere else to be straight after me, so I actually ended up with closer to just 10 minutes instead. But I like to think I made it count.

My audience was Dr Clark himself and an assistant, just the three of us in his office. I began by showing them a photo ID of mine from 5 years ago, and my biggest pants (no time to climb into them, hehe). Everything for me is awesome now, except whenever I think about how many others are still struggling with the life I used to live myself, which leads us to why we're here.

I broke out the proposal at this point, presenting it as stuff I wish I'd known so long ago, and talked about how much of it conflicts with today's guidelines, to the point where they actually explicitly advise against it. Yet here I am, living proof that it works, it's safe, it's effective and it's sustainable. I've helped myself, I've helped others, and now I want to help more.

Just a couple of minutes for each of the key points I wanted to make. Talk of a sugar tax is doing the rounds in NZ media at the moment, and I told them that while I agree with the principle behind the tax, if other things aren't done either at the same time or beforehand, it may not achieve as much as anyone would like on its own. If the guidelines were changed and people got the message that LCHF was actually OK, then I'd like to believe that that would make a bigger difference.

Of course, if changing the main guidelines was likely to suffer too much push-back, the other option would be to consider a separate set of guidelines for people with chronic metabolic conditions: obesity, T2D and so on. It wouldn't create any new precedent, since we already have targeted advice for the young, the old, the pregnant and so on. This seemed to resonate well with his assistant in particular, who suggested that the current guidelines were just about maintaining health, and I finished her sentence for her, "and what about people who have lost their health, or never even had it to begin with, like me? Make some new guidelines that are about gaining or regaining health, targeted at the very people who need that kind of help." That got a few nods.

Dr Clark asked me about low vs high GI food. I replied that while I felt that between two foods containing the same amount of carbs the lower GI would be better, either way you'd still be digesting the same amount of glucose, and my argument was to reduce the amount coming in altogether, so that the whole GI question becomes less of a factor anyway. They also asked me what sort of food I ate, and I went through all the regulars, basically variations of meat and veges, plus eggs and dairy. I mentioned the cafeteria I often go to for lunch, and he knew the place, saying he's been there himself occasionally; I don't recall seeing him there myself, but I'll be sure to say hi if I do in the future. He mentioned how he used to carb-load for some of the events he used to take part in, and I managed to get in a quick "keto may well have worked better."

Time ran out all too soon, so we took a photo outside his local office, and I offered to email him a PDF copy of the proposal, which he said he was happy to receive. A final handshake and they were off. I emailed him that PDF tonight, and also attached a copy of the photo, to help him remember who I am.



I have to say Dr Clark himself seemed quite friendly and attentive, and all of his staff were polite and welcoming. The lady who phoned me a month back actually made a point of coming out from her office to introduce herself to me while I was waiting, which was nice I thought. I just wish the whole thing had lasted longer, otherwise it all went about as well as I could have hoped.

So now that the meeting itself is done, I am prepared to present that same PDF to my fellow lowcarbers:

Evolving our nutritional understanding

Some quick disclaimers:

1. Writing is not something I do for a living (outside of code, at least). Hell, I failed high school English. But I've done what I feel is the best I could with the four weeks I had available to me. Keeping the personal aspects out was harder than I expected, but I tried to keep that stuff to the beginning and end sections only. The rest hopefully reads a little more formally.

2. There's a lot of New Zealand-centric stuff in there, which is only fair as it was originally intended for a New Zealand-based audience. The Health Star Rating system for example is something specific to Australasia. We also use the metric system; our scales for measuring lipids and so on are different. On the other hand, some issues overseas don't apply so much in NZ: we still have a publicly funded health system (with additional private health insurance options), there are no food subsidies here as far as I know, and pretty much all of our meat comes from grass-fed animals. So some recommendations I've made won't necessarily apply to other parts of the world, and I imagine the opposite applies as well.

One final note tonight that topped off my day: within an hour of posting the photo to the What the Fat Facebook group, I got a like and a comment from Prof Grant Schofield himself:

Quote:
Good work! The guidelines are still positively low fat.

Whether any of this ultimately goes any further at this point I cannot know or say, but as of right now I'm feeling pretty damn proud to have gotten as far as I have. Whatever happens next - if anything - today will not be forgotten anytime soon.

Last edited by Grav : Fri, Mar-23-18 at 15:17.
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  #43   ^
Old Fri, Mar-23-18, 03:32
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,529
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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Wow! Sounds like it went as well as it possibly could. And yeah; they are always rushed for time

Grass fed meat... like I didn't want to visit already...
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  #44   ^
Old Fri, Mar-23-18, 18:20
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is online now
Posts: 6,887
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/205/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 102%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
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Terrific report, Grav! You certainly put a great deal of work into it and made a well supported argument for your worthy cause. I hope that it gets the consideration that it deserves. I may print a few copies and leave them with my doctor at my annual checkup next week. I might leave one in the waiting room, too.
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  #45   ^
Old Mon, Mar-26-18, 00:20
Grav Grav is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 891
 
Plan: Banting
Stats: 302/185/187 Male 175cm
BF:
Progress: 102%
Location: New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khrussva
Terrific report, Grav! You certainly put a great deal of work into it and made a well supported argument for your worthy cause. I hope that it gets the consideration that it deserves. I may print a few copies and leave them with my doctor at my annual checkup next week. I might leave one in the waiting room, too.

Thanks Ken. That's an interesting idea I hadn't previously considered, just conveniently leaving a few copies in random places, hehe. I don't think I'd want to be doing that myself, as I'd want to be certain that it gets a good headstart here with the minister first. But by all means if others would like to share it with others offline, I don't mind that at all.

The thought did cross my mind that maybe I should send Prof Schofield a copy. We've exchanged a couple of messages on Facebook now; I told him I hope he doesn't mind being referenced in my proposal and he gave me another thumbs up. But until I know I'm not going to get any further by myself, I think I want to continue by myself for the time being. I see a certain value in my independence which would be hard to regain once it's gone.
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