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  #1   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 17:17
Meetow Kim Meetow Kim is offline
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Plan: Atkins Concept
Stats: 225/190/175 Male 70.5"
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Progress: 70%
Location: Central Virginia
Default Liquor, whats up with that?

So, alcohol is a no-no on these low carb diets. I haven't invested in the books but my wife does have the zero sugar diet book I'll refer to, to see what it says.

I'm going by printouts I have from secondary sites that love the South beach and Atkins so much they wanted to share and help, etc. I guess. They tell you to abstain and only add in dry red wines it seems.

Why is liquor so bad? I mean for the diet, I know the social and general health problems associated with the stuff, I'm talking about a low carb diet specifically.

I'm quitting for a while anyway to cleanse my system and detox...I am a lifelong heavy drinker, and certainly wish I wasn't, but I love the stuff. I just realize that I have to abstain periodically to let my body recover because I cant have one drink and walk away.

But, in looking at booze, in all the so called "nutritional info" I have found so far shows no sugar, and no carbs. I dont know how that can be since there are around 100 calories per 1.5 oz...I suppose it's just the alcohol somehow that has the calories.

I thought for sure when I started looking at alcohol facts I would find sugar, carbs etc. and this is why its a no-no. But there is apparently none in the kind of liquor I drink, Vodka, whisky, tequila. I realize anything you add to it is added, that's a no brainer. I like dirty vodka martinis which have a tiny splash of vermouth, like less than 1/2 oz and a splash of green olive brine...the vermouth is optional. I also drink bourbon, but strait on the rocks...I never mix bourbon with anything other than ice.

So I'd appreciate any knowledge you can share with me.

This page gives you calories and carbs, but no sugars of many drinks, both straight and mixed. It's aptly named for me, "Get Drunk Not Fat!"

http://getdrunknotfat.com/

Here's a page (see below) from a low carb site called "No bun Please" that addresses this and indicates that my favorite boozes are all zero carb and Keto friendly. Why would I drink wine that has carbs when I can drink vodka and bourbon with zero carbs?

This page does say alcohol calories are burned before fat and this can cause a stall, but in some people it jump-starts weight loss (your mileage may vary)

http://nobunplease.com/alcohol-on-a-low-carb-keto-diet/

It also says one problem can be that people can slip up when under the influence and make bad food choices. I get that, but I am also a 1%er as far as drunks who makes remarkably good decisions under the influence, and can keep my wits about me very well when drinking. I'm a real lifetime pro...never a DUI, never arrested, never hurt anyone..except myself...I have collapsed a lawn chair or two trying to get out of it!

Are low carb authors assuming when people think of alcohol they are always referring to beer, wine and mixed drinks, and not real alcoholics like me who drink the real stuff with no mixers?!

Like I said, I'm detoxing from the booze right now and my goal is fast weight loss. My future boozing will be down the road...but it will "be".

I also know the calories add up. And I can easily drink 1,000 calories in booze without blinking.

Last edited by Meetow Kim : Tue, Jan-16-18 at 17:28.
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  #2   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 17:51
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
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Posts: 3,861
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
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Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
Default

The body burns alcohol & sugar for energy before it will start burning your bodyfat. Some LC diets do allow lower-carb alcohol like whisky & wine after you're closer to goal, but many find that it stalls their weightloss, others find a couple of glasses of wine or shots of whisky each week are fine.
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 18:05
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nawchem nawchem is offline
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Plan: No gluten, CAD
Stats: 196.0/163.5/149.0 Female 62
BF:36/29.7/27.3
Progress: 69%
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I've noticed if I have a drink I get completely drunk on one shot on low carb. I read how you handle alcohol is related to how much of an enzyme you have that converts alcohol to an aldehyde (the aldehyde is what does the damage). So I think when I eat healthier I make more of that enzyme.

LC is a WOE and Way of life. A lot of us want to be optimally healthy and alcohol is a toxin that reversibly at first scars the liver. I saw the blood test of a friend of mine that drinks a about 4x a week, a few drinks and his cell blood count test was completely whacked out in nearly every parameter. He even has macrolytic anemia. It changed the way I look at alcohol.
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  #4   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 19:59
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Kristine Kristine is offline
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Plan: Primal
Stats: 171/155/155 Female 5'7"
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Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Default

Another issue with LC and alcohol is that alcohol inhibits your liver from keeping your blood sugar at a normal level, and you can get a pretty massive crash. This has happened to me when I've drank on an empty stomach and/or didn't eat anything for a long time afterwards, and/or just too few carbs. It's not fun. I was weak, shaky, dizzy and sure I was about to vomit. My glucometer readings were very low, once it was 2.4 mmol/L (44 mg/dL). I don't have any problems when I balance it out with some food.

I wasn't hung over, BTW. It was never a huge amount of alcohol. I had no headache and as soon as I ate something to get my sugar up, I felt 100% better within minutes.

It's not so bad in maintenance, but it's kinda not conducive to weight loss if you have to knock back a pound of wings and a salad in addition to large quantities of empty calories in alcohol. Too high carb and too much food, and you won't lose fat and may even gain. Too low carb and too little food, and your blood sugar can get dangerously low.

Just something to watch out for.
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, Jan-17-18, 09:31
Meetow Kim Meetow Kim is offline
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Posts: 165
 
Plan: Atkins Concept
Stats: 225/190/175 Male 70.5"
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: Central Virginia
Default

Thanks all. I do know the health concerns of drinking...been dealing with it all my life. I am one of those luckier ones who has dodged the tragedy bullet with heavy drinking.

My liver numbers have been high since I was a teen. I had a fatty liver before adulthood. After 35 years of heavy drinking my liver numbers remain elevated but only recently spiked to a level that the doctor even mentioned it as a potential issue. I quit for three months and the numbers dropped back to relatively normal for me, meaning no measurable actual liver damage.

Triglycerides are reasonable and sugar is only slightly elevated even while completely saturated with an alcohol lifestyle, the tests taken just in December before I stopped drinking this recent time. I am one of those that has gotten away with heavy alcohol while others dont even drink and are diabetic, kidney and liver problems.

My health is fairly good in my 50's, albeit not enough exorcise and I gained a lot of wight in the last 5 years because of probably hormones changing at my age plus I took a job working from home in front of a computer after a fairly physically active working career...and I hate exorcise for the sake of exorcise. I'll throw a football or a Frisbee with you in the park or back yard any day, but exorcise for the sake of it, it's not my thing.

I'm here because I need to make the change to reduce my BMI and make me lighter on my feet like I have been all my life, while drinking anything I want, and how much I want (in the past)...but that's changing in my older years. Our diets (wife with me) have always been pretty good and varied, we take a lot of good supplements and dont live on processed or junk food, but had been eating a little worse in the last 6 months just out of gluttony.

My goal is weight loss. My general nutrition has been pretty good and had already been making choices to reduce carbs, just "because" prior to dieting. But, our diet fit the food pyramid too much with the carbs regarding LC weight loss and lifestyles. There are many ways to lose weight, the reason I chose LC is because I dont have to be hungry. It seems to be working.

What LC may do for my drinking however is if the alcohol causes me to fail at keeping weight off and or losing those final pounds, it may encourage me to moderate better, which is a life long lifestyle problem for me, very little alcohol moderation. But, I've always been a high functioning alcoholic in pretty good health...its almost not fair that I get to ride my body like horse while others suffer so many health problems living a sober clean life.

At my age, the effect of the alcohol is becoming more evident though. I used to never have to detox and cleanse. I will never give up drinking permanently unless a catastrophic health issue forces me to. If I have to trade off calories for it, I will, I love the stuff as much as food. But I'm abstaining from foods I love and the alcohol I love for the sake of losing weight right now. hopefully moderating both will be a lifestyle I can achieve and live with in the future...and I'll likely be forced to the the thing I hate most..."exorcise for the sake of getting exorcise". At 50+ I'm seeing the writing on the wall that in order to continue to work my property, cut, split, and haul wood, repair my home and even play a game of volleyball at the family reunion without getting hurt, I'll have to work out to keep the muscle tone and flexibility I need in old age. I have aging parents I will need to help and my wife is 10 years ahead of me...I need to be there for them. That and being disgusted and embarrassed about my weight is what drives me to be here.

So, outside of the normal health warnings, it appears the biggest issue with liquor I'm finding so far is those calories get used before burning fat. It makes sense, and with that knowledge I can make informed decisions.

My wife has the Zero Sugar Diet book she is following. I looked up alcohol in it. It basically says a drink a day is fine after losing the weight you want but no more. but he also says he would recommend that, even of it weren't in reference to dieting. Just like the standard boilerplate "1 drink for women 2 drinks for men rule". The AMA and the FDA, DHHS, USDA are doing what they can, but have also misled us. Remember when eggs were killing us? Now a super food? Avacados? Butter? Yep, all driven by the "associations and agencies"...the same ones that tell us poison Statins are what we should be taking for a debatable serum cholesterol level causing heart disease. Statins strip our bodies of naturally produced heart healthy CoQ10...and its the alcohol that's going to kill us? OK...

I believe you folks in here as much as I do any of them...probably more.

So thanks for the feedback, I welcome any other confirmations or perspectives still. My mind is always open to ideas, opinions and facts.

All the best to you all.

Last edited by Meetow Kim : Wed, Jan-17-18 at 09:48.
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  #6   ^
Old Wed, Jan-17-18, 13:31
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Location: Ontario
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https://www.nhs.uk/news/neurology/s...tarvation-mode/

Quote:

"Alcohol switches the brain into starvation mode, increasing hunger and appetite, scientists have discovered," BBC News reports.

Research in mice found alcohol increased activity in a set of brain cells used to regulate appetite.

Scientists have long been puzzled about why people often eat more when they've been drinking alcohol, despite the high number of calories in alcoholic drinks. Alcohol is second only to fat in its calorie density.

The body's regulatory system should register calories arriving in the body, so that the person would not feel hungry. But with alcohol the opposite happens Ė people feel hungry and eat more.

Researchers found that mice ate more when given alcohol. They saw spikes in electrical activity in Agouti-related peptide cells (AGRP cells) from the mice brains when they were exposed to alcohol. AGRP cells are specialised brain cells the body uses to regulate appetite. While hunger may hit you in your stomach, the entire process of "hunger, eat, reward" is controlled by your brain.

When the mice's AGRP cells were chemically blocked, they no longer ate more when given alcohol.

Research in animals doesn't always translate to humans, so we don't know for sure if this means the same thing happens in human brains. However, it is plausible.

It's also a reminder that if you're trying to watch your weight Ė alcohol will set you back in more ways than one; it is chock full of calories in its own right, and it may well make you eat more on top.
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  #7   ^
Old Wed, Jan-17-18, 16:10
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mojolissa mojolissa is offline
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Plan: semi lc- OMAD w/IF
Stats: 225/209/199 Female 66.5"
BF:workin on it
Progress: 62%
Location: Michigan
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You may want to look into the "drinking mans diet"?
I seem to remember that was a low-carb option for people who still drink, but want to lose weight.
For me personally, it always stalls my weight loss. YMMV
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  #8   ^
Old Wed, Jan-17-18, 17:13
Meetow Kim Meetow Kim is offline
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Posts: 165
 
Plan: Atkins Concept
Stats: 225/190/175 Male 70.5"
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: Central Virginia
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All really good info. I love it!

No doubt alcohol causes the desire to eat. Like the person that wrote the article I linked above on the "nubunplease" web site wrote, "Be wary of food choices while under the influence. You can still get the fatty cheeseburger, but avoid the bun and French fries."

I think if one chooses to drink, one must remember that the calories are there. For once, the fact that I prefer mostly straight distilled spirits with usually no carb-heavy mixers is actually a benefit! Those martinis and bourbons give me a lot more bang for the calorie buck than wine and beer and mixed drinks!

With the ability to have pork rinds for crunch, this could be doable. Especially since I've begun flavoring my own. I started a thread on that here. If I stick to protein and keep the carbs out of my alcohol face it just may be feasible. I expect to have to lean up and pay back those calories though...trading the boozes for some of the food, but protein is excellent for filling the drunkards stomach!

The Drinking Man's Diet...I love that too! I put that on my Amazon list, may be a good opportunity to test drive the Kindle app on my phone...and only $3!

This article from Forbes back in 2004 is a good read on the history of it etc..

https://www.forbes.com/2004/04/21/c...ml#5e02271e5928

Thanks for the discussion all!
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Jan-18-18, 12:09
tess9132 tess9132 is offline
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Posts: 539
 
Plan: general lc
Stats: 214/156/130 Female 5'3"
BF:
Progress: 69%
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My experience with alcohol has been different from the norm. I only drink wine these days. I donít find myself getting drunk faster. In fact, it takes me longer to feel it. HOWEVER, I sometimes get much more hungover and have spent at least two nights I can think of hugging the porcelain god on 4 glasses of wine that Iíd drunk over four Hours or so. Even when I was 105 pounds I could hold my drink better than that.

I donít know how much of what I experience is related to my genes. Alcoholism does run in my family, but Iíve never been a big drinker. My sister and husband, who both like their drink, find they have a much lower tolerance on low carb.

I also donít find that alcohol makes me eat more. Itís never had that effect on me. When Iím drinking, I tend only to want more alcohol. It does however give me chocolate cravings the next day or two.

So what do I do knowing how my body reacts? I NEVER have more than 3 glasses of wine anymore. Not ever. Iím a bit of an introvert and drink in uncomfortable social situations. A few weeks ago, I went to a Christmas party and had my 3 glasses of wine and even then suffered a bad hangover (but at least I wasnít sick to my stomach). If I find myself having a repeat of that 3 glass hangover, I may have to stop myself at two. Other than awkward social situations, I only drink on weekends and always stop at one or two.

On low carb, my sister drinks wine and vodka. My husband drinks wine and bourbon. No beer anymore.

Last edited by tess9132 : Thu, Jan-18-18 at 12:15.
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Jan-18-18, 13:37
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thud123 thud123 is offline
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Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/196/000 Male 182cm
BF:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meetow Kim
...After 35 years of heavy drinking my liver numbers remain elevated but only recently spiked to a level that the doctor even mentioned it as a potential issue. I quit for three months and the numbers dropped back to relatively normal for me, meaning no measurable actual liver damage...

If you don't mind, estimate your frequency and amount prior to elevated numbers. I'm curious. I was a heavy drinker as well. My liver numbers are fine now but the damage has been done according to ultrasound and MRI.

The liver is an amazing thing. It can take a lot of abuse over a time... until it can't. I'm not trying to dissuade or judge your alcohol consumption - but trading those alcohol calories for good food calories is possibly not a smart recipe for healthfully loosing weight; your stated primary goal.

My hope is for you to succeed in getting to that goal!
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Jan-19-18, 04:31
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Mrs.C Mrs.C is offline
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Plan: ketogenic
Stats: 193/184.2/140 Female 163
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Progress: 17%
Location: Western Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser


This is interesting, I know many alcoholics who are so damn skinny!!!!
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  #12   ^
Old Fri, Jan-19-18, 07:45
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 12,990
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Mrs. C--yes. Obviously more to it than alcohol inevitably making people fatter. There's often a difference in the effect of a substance on rodents, depending on how they're exposed to it, I think it's likely that similar things happen in humans. If you take msg, for instance-- there are studies where it's fattening, and other studies where it seems to do the opposite. Added to the animal's food vs. the animal's water supply makes a difference. Maybe in that case it's a matter of the animals eating the food or drinking the water to get a sort of msg "fix."

I spotted this, relevant to skinny alcoholics, on another forum;

Quote:
This is something I've noticed for years. Visit any liquor store in most big cities and you see crowd of obvious alcoholics asking for money to fund their next beer or liquor purchase. They're almost always skinny.

Obviously, that's not a gauge of health as most probably have fatty liver disease.

However, alcohol is pretty dense in calories and many of these are drinking liters of the stuff daily. This is not cocaine we're talking about, which doesn't have calories.

My only guess is that they're obviously drinking their sustenance only and probably rarely eating solid foods, but this seems to be exception of the calories are the only thing that matters theory. Again, is alcohol very calorie dense.

Another theory is that the body doesn't convert alcohol to adipose tissue well. If you're recreational drinker a weekend bender may also leave you eating greasy food. Bar food is also extremely fattening, but hardcore alcoholics don't want to spend their funds on greasy food.

Anyone else notice this and wonder why this is common?


In Good Calories Bad Calories Gary Taubes wrote about glycerol as a possible rate limiting step for getting fat. The idea was that glycerol, as product of glucose breakdown, could be in too short supply to sustain fat storage on a low carb diet. We can make glycerol from protein, so that wasn't quite true. In the case of alcohol, it seems more likely, though. You can make fatty acids from alcohol, but probably very little glycerol or glucose. Maybe there's some explanation in there for why alcohol makes people hungrier, when it does, fat synthesis gives us another option besides oxidation for disposal of alcohol.


Quote:
Effects of fructose and other substances on ethanol and acetaldehyde metabolism in man.
Rawat AK.
Abstract
The comparative effectiveness of oral administration of fructose, glucose sucrose and alanine has been investigated on the rates of blood alcohol clearance, and acetaldehyde removal in man. Oral administration of fructose was found to exert the most pronounced effect. It increased the rate of blood alcohol clearance by about 100%. Orally administered alanine was found to be least effective in increasing the rate of blood alcohol clearance after blood alcohol had reached peak levels, perhaps due that poor absorption of alanine. Fructose administration partially prevented the ethanol-mediated increase in lactate/pyruvate and beta-hydroxybutyrate/acetoacetate in the blood. Fructose exerted the most pronounced antiketogenic effect and the levels of circulating free fatty acids decreased in the 24-hour fasted patients upon administration of fructose with ethanol compared to ethanol alone. Oral administrations of fructose, glucose, sucrose or alanine did not significantly change the levels of acetaldehyde in the blood. Combined administration of fructose with ethanol resulted in an increase in the levels of blood sorbitol. The mechanism through which fructose exerts its stimulatory effect on the metabolism of ethanol in the liver has been discussed.
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  #13   ^
Old Mon, Jan-29-18, 14:15
Meetow Kim Meetow Kim is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 165
 
Plan: Atkins Concept
Stats: 225/190/175 Male 70.5"
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: Central Virginia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thud123
If you don't mind, estimate your frequency and amount prior to elevated numbers. I'm curious. I was a heavy drinker as well. My liver numbers are fine now but the damage has been done according to ultrasound and MRI.

The liver is an amazing thing. It can take a lot of abuse over a time... until it can't. I'm not trying to dissuade or judge your alcohol consumption - but trading those alcohol calories for good food calories is possibly not a smart recipe for healthfully loosing weight; your stated primary goal.

My hope is for you to succeed in getting to that goal!


Thanks Thud,

No...common sense and alcoholism, or any substance dependency, including food, do not go hand in hand. Just like my teachers in school told me of I only applied myself I could get outstanding grades. Problem was, I hated school, not the learning, but the structure, days organized by bells and buzzers, being herded like livestock...People who know me, and my wife specifically will say the weirdest thing about me is people consider me very smart in general and when I set my mind on a goal, I'm good at sticking with it.

Alcohol is not something I have succeeded in permanently controlling. I think I know why. I dont really want to. I love drinking. The only thing that even makes me want to stop or moderate is medical numbers and doctors advice, the fact that at my age its starting to take its toll on me and I feel unhealthy after saturating with the stuff for months on end...and everybody tells me I shouldn't drink as much in general. Not because I get violent or wake up in the front yard naked..or any sociological reasons, just because a normal person looks at me and says "dayum, thats a lot of booze, you shouldn't drink that much...according to...everyone". Otherwise I would never consider not drinking.

I'm not good at keeping a journal, its not one of my disciplines, But I'll see if I can get some lab numbers. I've been meaning to get a hold of my previous doctor's records on me and I plan to look in to getting my own lab tests done independently of my doctors office. Now that I cant afford health insurance as of this year, I can elect to spend my medical dollars anywhere I want, and was told I should be able to request my own labs if I want...and just pay cash which is about half of what I pay on an insurance deductible in most medical practices.

What I do know, is a couple years ago, my doctor said "whoa, your liver numbers have gone way up" and she asked me to abstain for three months and get another test. After 3 months the numbers were back down to normal "for me". My last labs end of 2017 at the height of an alcohol saturation period right before I started this diet on the new year, showed elevated but not danger numbers and I had to ask about them, the doctor didn't even bring it up, and this is a new doctor that doesn't even know my liver number are usually high and thats been the case as well as a fatty liver since I was a teenager before I had decades of drinking under my belt.

Last edited by Meetow Kim : Mon, Jan-29-18 at 14:40.
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  #14   ^
Old Mon, Jan-29-18, 14:37
Meetow Kim Meetow Kim is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 165
 
Plan: Atkins Concept
Stats: 225/190/175 Male 70.5"
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: Central Virginia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs.C
This is interesting, I know many alcoholics who are so damn skinny!!!!


I've known many of them too. I think they are "those people" who seem to always have a good body weight without trying and can eat anything they want. We've all known them and hate...I mean "admire" them

Quote:
Originally Posted by tess9132
When Iím drinking, I tend only to want more alcohol. It does however give me chocolate cravings the next day or two.


I can relate to that, thats my biggest problem; one drink tastes like it needs to be the next, and so on it goes


Dang Teaser,

I've read some of your posts, and wow, you really do get in to the scientific research and details. In the end it seems one study balances the other! It reminds me that I am not as intellectual as I think of myself sometimes...I just want to know, "is it making me fat or not?!"


I do have to report that I recently broke a stall. After gaining 2 lbs and being frustrated about it, I did the opposite one would think should be done. I added more carbs in to my diet, fell off the wagon and started drinking again (distilled spirits mostly and just a little bit of wine)!

Go figure. But the carbs I added was fruit and V8 juice, not exactly bad for you stuff.

The drinking did not make me binge eat, but it did make me sort of binge drink which is hundreds of calories, but no carbs. If I had eaten bread or sugar, my body would have probably went for those calories to burn first, just like it does with alcohol. I did not find myself wanting to eat, I wanted another bourbon! But thats that little alcohol "you da man!" devil in all of us alcoholics...
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  #15   ^
Old Mon, Jan-29-18, 14:58
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
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My BFF that I've known since 3 years old, drank her dinner every night. She was too tired to cook after work I surmised and pointed that out to her when she got sober. It's quick, fast and in the stomach, instant gratification. Not sure because she didn't want me to know but I suspect she was drinking instead of eating many of her other meals.
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