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  #16   ^
Old Sun, Jan-07-18, 08:01
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Going down a bit of a niacinamide rabbit hole this morning, I came across this.

Quote:
Niacin, the fountain of youth

Who would not want to live a long and healthy life? A freely available food supplement could help in this respect, scientists from ETH Zurich have demonstrated in roundworms. Vitamin B3 -- also known as niacin -- and its metabolite nicotinamide in the worms' diet caused them to live for about one tenth longer than usual.

As an international team of researchers headed by Michael Ristow, a professor of energy metabolism, has now experimentally demonstrated, niacin and nicotinamide take effect by promoting formation of so-called free radicals. "In roundworms, these reactive oxygen species prolong life," says Ristow.

"No scientific evidence for usefulness of antioxidants"

This might seem surprising as reactive oxygen species are generally considered to be unhealthy. Ristow's view also contradicts the textbook opinion championed by many other scientists. Reactive oxygen species are known to damage somatic cells, a condition referred to as oxidative stress. Particular substances, so-called antioxidants, which are also found in fruit, vegetables and certain vegetable oils, are capable of neutralising these free radicals. Many scientists believe that antioxidants are beneficial to health.

"The claim that intake of antioxidants, especially in tablet form, promotes any aspect of human health lacks scientific support," says Ristow. He does not dispute that fruit and vegetables are healthy. However, this may rather be caused by other compounds contained therein, such as so-called polyphenols. "Fruit and vegetables are healthy, despite the fact that they contain antioxidants," says the ETH-Zurich professor. Based on the current and many previous findings he is convinced that small amounts of reactive oxygen species and the oxidative stress they trigger have a health-promoting impact. "Cells can cope well with oxidative stress and neutralise it," says Ristow.

Substance mimics endurance sport

In earlier studies on humans, Ristow demonstrated that the health-enhancing effect of endurance sports is mediated via an increased formation of reactive oxygen species -- and that antioxidants abolish this effect. Based on the present study, he concludes that niacin brings about a similar metabolic condition to exercise. "Niacin tricks the body into believing that it is exercising -- even when this is not the case," says Ristow. Such compounds are known as "exercise mimetics."

The researchers conducted their experiments on the model organism Caenorhabditis elegans. This worm, which is merely one millimetre in length, can be easily maintained and has a lifespan of only a month, making it the ideal model organism for ageing research.

Also relevant for humans

The results of the study may also be of relevance for humans, says Ristow. After all, the metabolic pathway initiated by niacin is very similar in roundworms and higher organisms. Whether niacin has similar effects on the life expectancy of mice is the subject of Ristow's current research. Previous studies also suggest a health-enhancing effect of niacin in humans with elevated blood cholesterol levels.

Niacin and nicotinamide have been approved as dietary supplements for decades. Ristow could easily envisage the substances being used broadly for therapeutic purposes in the future. A whole series of foods naturally contain niacin, including meat, liver, fish, peanuts, mushrooms, rice and wheat bran. Whether nutritional uptake is sufficient for a health-enhancing or lifespan-extending effect, however, remains to be demonstrated, says Ristow.

Disputed impact of enzymes

The latest study on the effects of niacin and nicotinamide is based on a particular class of enzymes, the sirtuins, which convert niacin into nicotinamide. Moreover, they are also involved in gene regulation, helping to down regulate the activity of certain genes. Until today, scientists have been disputing whether sirtuins have a life-prolonging impact.

Ristow and his team's work now suggests that the activity of sirtuins actually prolongs life in roundworms. According to the study, however, the life-prolonging effect is not down to gene regulation, as has often been supposed in the past. Instead, the effect is due to the conversion of niacin into nicotinamide. Studying genetically modified roundworms that were unable to convert nicotinamide into certain other metabolic products, the scientists did not observe any lifespan extension, even after overexpression of sirtuins, which otherwise lead to an increased life expectancy.


There have been a number of studies looking at antioxidants and exercise, looks like Ristow was involved in that some.

Study by another group;
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/142.full

Quote:
Abstract
Background: Exercise practitioners often take vitamin C supplements because intense muscular contractile activity can result in oxidative stress, as indicated by altered muscle and blood glutathione concentrations and increases in protein, DNA, and lipid peroxidation. There is, however, considerable debate regarding the beneficial health effects of vitamin C supplementation.

Objective: This study was designed to study the effect of vitamin C on training efficiency in rats and in humans.

Design: The human study was double-blind and randomized. Fourteen men (27–36 y old) were trained for 8 wk. Five of the men were supplemented daily with an oral dose of 1 g vitamin C. In the animal study, 24 male Wistar rats were exercised under 2 different protocols for 3 and 6 wk. Twelve of the rats were treated with a daily dose of vitamin C (0.24 mg/cm2 body surface area).

Results: The administration of vitamin C significantly (P = 0.014) hampered endurance capacity. The adverse effects of vitamin C may result from its capacity to reduce the exercise-induced expression of key transcription factors involved in mitochondrial biogenesis. These factors are peroxisome proliferator–activated receptor co-activator 1, nuclear respiratory factor 1, and mitochondrial transcription factor A. Vitamin C also prevented the exercise-induced expression of cytochrome C (a marker of mitochondrial content) and of the antioxidant enzymes superoxide dismutase and glutathione peroxidase.

Conclusion: Vitamin C supplementation decreases training efficiency because it prevents some cellular adaptations to exercise.


The problem here might be that vitamin c is doing its job. Maybe stress can be good, unless what you're trying to do is trigger a positive adaptation to that stress. No stress, no reason to adapt. That doesn't necessarily mean that there can't be some benefit if there is some sort of pathological state of excess oxidation as opposed to an environmental stressor that can be adapted to.

There are also studies looking at cold baths etc. to decrease inflammation after working out. They work, less inflammation. But they seem to impair muscle growth. Again, reduce the stress, reduce the adaptation to the stress.

A study I was looking at in my journal some months back mentioned something about anti-inflammatories like aspirin or tylenol. Young, healthy people working out were given anti-inflammatories--they seemed to interfere with muscle growth. Older, insulin resistant people working out, given anti-inflammatories had instead an increase in lean mass. There could be a sweet spot for some of this stuff, how you get there depending on where you started out.
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  #17   ^
Old Tue, Jan-16-18, 16:07
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Cool stuff, teaser. Now, the querticin I have been taking IS polyphenols.
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  #18   ^
Old Thu, Jan-18-18, 05:23
Meetow Kim Meetow Kim is offline
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I'm just talking "out-text" here. I am not on the level of information consumption or contemplation you folks seem to be, so this is opinion writing that follows.

This stuff is way over my head, and I suspect its over the heads of many, including those that write articles on "stuff". At what point do we stop pinballing from study to study? How controlled do we really know the subjects of the study are? I'm referring to the humans of course...rats and worms are even more dubious to me as in relation to humans.

I'm not saying all studies are wrong, but with so much information, often contradictory, how does the average non scientist or doctor really know the answer in the end? I do believe a doctor who has been practicing 30 years and has told patients to do or take "X" and see's THOSE patients over that 30 years and sees real world results. What we actually see in media and medical publications...is what has reached our eyes. We have a medical community that is insistent that serum cholesterol is what causes plaque and heart disease, yet other studies, one massive one in Europe contradicts that "known fact" that has Americans taking poison statins for instance (I mention this a lot because I'm one of those people that, thankfully, cant tolerate statins, so I dont take them). While a lot of doctors talk down supplements, in the case of statins they admit these drugs strip us of natural CoQ10 and recommend a supplement! Supplements that other "experts" tell us are not nearly absorbing as well as we need and not nearly as cardiac protective as the coQ10 our bodies naturally produce...the CoQ10 we are intentionally stripping from us with drugs supposedly to protect our heart! It seems nonsensical on its face to me...but maybe I'm just weird and skeptical.

But why does my skepticism seem less with supplements? I think its because I have at least as much trust in homeopathic stuff that is not driven by corporations as much. I dont take supplements because the supplement manufacturer has ads on TV or elsewhere...the more a supplement is pushed in media or by anyone making money on it (ever hear of Monavie? A pyramid scheme, yet the stuff probably has some good things in it...that I will NOT pay that kind of money for), the less apt I am to buy it. Every supplement I take is based more on either doctors advice, who doesn't make money on the supplements like they might pushing a scrip; and my own research reading what nutritionists, herbal health folks, and end users who report at least psychosomatic results, which the placebo effect is proven to actually work in some cases! The power of the mind...it cant be measured in a blood test all the time. Positivity itself is a healing power.

One of those linked articles refers to pomegranate. Yea, hard to believe the stuff is bad for you...and a pomegranate is not bad for most people...yet POM juice, loaded with sugar, we all know here...its the sugar that's bad! I love pomegranate juice, but I refuse to be fleeced by the price of the stuff and now that I'm paying attention to sugar, I'm clear on this. Plus I'd rather have natural sour cherry juice if given a choice.

Green tea. Asians. I believe them. So I drink it, especially around flu season...but I also get the flu shot. We also have local herbal hippies and natural farms and communes nearby we buy the natural stuff from....including vegetable seeds specifically bred for our region. They sell wonderful tea blends for wellness that cant hurt. I wont delve in to all the herbals...there are so many. Again, I have as much trust in herbals as I do big pharma.

Turmeric. Again, an Asian thing. The case study is part of a continent. But I'm not paying through the nose for the stuff to take capsules. I buy it in bulk from a spice retailer, it lasts forever. I use it in the winter when I'm drinking cups of broth or bouillon...that I add capsicum sauce to...because I believe capsicum is really good for you. I add turmeric and hot sauce to my drinking broth, and try to have that after my two cups of coffee and cup of green tea every day (now that I work from home most of the time, this is easier to do).

My biggest skepticism with supplements is there is no way, short of hiring the local university to analyze them, to know if what they claim is in the supplement is true. Kind of like we "trust" that nutrition label on foods. But who is verifying these? Each batch?

I take both Niacin and 1000mg of vitamin C every day. Both suggested by doctors who rarely seem to promote supplements. Many doctors will tell you if you are eating a balanced diet, you dont need supplements, including omega 3's. But other doctor's who see me say either the supplements I take Which include much more than those two, are either "good stuff" or simply, "not going to hurt".

What I dont do, is assume that the expensive supplements are the best or most pure. Just because you bought them in a store with employees that seem to be in that "world" and the products they sell are outrageously expensive, is no guarantee of purity or quality. Gilded packaging does not make the supplement better.

Many in here are far more well read on this stuff, cancer survivors...and suffer many more ailments than I ever have...you all actually make me feel so fortunate. As I write in my booze thread, it seems unfair that I have drank all my life and smoked much of it...still do smoke here and there if the weather is nice outside...I've done many illicit drugs in my youth...enough that one might wonder why I'm alive today. I worked hard and partied/drank-smoked hard for decades...and so many people out there have so many ailments and never did any of that. My blood numbers are fairly decent, I've had x-rays, MRI, CT scans and C-protein tests, etc....and no matter how much I worry I have that "tumor" from all my unhealthy behavior, the medical field keeps telling me I'm fine and should cut back on the drinking and just lose some weight!...and take a poison statin because the cholesterol levels that were good 15 years ago are no longer good enough. What's next...the LDL needs to be in negative numbers? How much pharmaceuticals will it take? Yea, not this guy, but I will take plant sterols and red yeast rice!

Go figure.
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  #19   ^
Old Fri, Mar-16-18, 02:07
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nawchem nawchem is offline
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Meetow I'm on the same page with you, I eat because I like food. I'm a chemist and I'm not interested in microanalysis. I'm down with lowering the carbs = weight loss + health.

This board attracts a lof of really brainy people who are really nice as well. I think if you lowcarb for a long time you start to dig deeper into what's going on. If I ever have any problem, I'm super confident someone on this board will know the answer. A lot of drs have joined the lowcarb diet bandwagon, the diet industry is lucrative.
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  #20   ^
Old Fri, Mar-16-18, 06:53
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meetow Kim
take a poison statin because the cholesterol levels that were good 15 years ago are no longer good enough. What's next...the LDL needs to be in negative numbers? How much pharmaceuticals will it take? Yea, not this guy, but I will take plant sterols and red yeast rice!

Go figure.


Just a caution: those are "natural" forms of statin, so you still need to be careful.

My attitude (which also coincides with my own health challenges) is that inflammation is THE problem. If I eat and live in a way that reduces inflammation, all else follows.

Forcing a health metric into a different number is not really solving the underlying problem; it's just tinkering with a health metric!
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  #21   ^
Old Fri, Mar-16-18, 10:53
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teaser teaser is offline
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I don't trust homeopathy, partly due to the fact that the homeopathic substance is watered down to the point where the probability that any one "dose" will actually contain the substance itself is very low.

I also don't trust the idea that placebo works due to some mind over matter deal. When the measure is subjective, as in depression, it's possible that thinking that you're on a medication will cause you to answer a depression quiz differently, without actual general improvements in mood. Maybe it's comparable to an observation with porsches one psychologist made--having a porsche makes people happier when they're thinking about how happy the porsche makes them, rather than the rest of the time.

Placebo's purpose is to provide blinding for the intervention. But where is the blinding for placebo itself? One study looked at giving people placebo, but telling them that it was placebo. The placebo still worked--but the subjects were told that placebos have a powerful mind-body effect, going in.
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  #22   ^
Old Fri, Mar-16-18, 11:31
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Where are the studies ......I expect a litney of studies listed to support an article. There were none.

Seemed more like an opinion peice.

(referring to first article listed.)


Green tea I find effective. I know when I miss my daily tea.
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  #23   ^
Old Fri, Mar-16-18, 11:35
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Going down a bit of a niacinamide rabbit hole this morning, I came across this.



There have been a number of studies looking at antioxidants and exercise, looks like Ristow was involved in that some.

Study by another group;
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/87/1/142.full



The problem here might be that vitamin c is doing its job. Maybe stress can be good, unless what you're trying to do is trigger a positive adaptation to that stress. No stress, no reason to adapt. That doesn't necessarily mean that there can't be some benefit if there is some sort of pathological state of excess oxidation as opposed to an environmental stressor that can be adapted to.

There are also studies looking at cold baths etc. to decrease inflammation after working out. They work, less inflammation. But they seem to impair muscle growth. Again, reduce the stress, reduce the adaptation to the stress.

A study I was looking at in my journal some months back mentioned something about anti-inflammatories like aspirin or tylenol. Young, healthy people working out were given anti-inflammatories--they seemed to interfere with muscle growth. Older, insulin resistant people working out, given anti-inflammatories had instead an increase in lean mass. There could be a sweet spot for some of this stuff, how you get there depending on where you started out.



It occurs to me that the 1 gram of Vit C was a dose much higher than most people get a day. Perhaps if the study was repeated at 500mg the results might be different.

Was the 1g level picked because this is a dose commonly used by athletes?

( all rhetorical questions.)
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  #24   ^
Old Fri, Mar-16-18, 11:58
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teaser teaser is offline
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You're right, there might be some goldilock dose. Oxidant stress triggering favourable adaptations does make sense, but "the more the better" isn't necessarily true.
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  #25   ^
Old Fri, Mar-16-18, 13:01
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Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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I do wish more reseatch $$ was spent. I hear NIH will be gutted....hope it doesnt happen.
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  #26   ^
Old Sat, Mar-17-18, 07:14
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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I am reminded of how there was a big push for Vitamin A because of studies that indicated this might be why "vegetables were good for us." But it turned out, just taking A supplements had a detrimental effect.

This drive to isolate things so a company can turn them into drugs is the problem. Our body doesn't work in isolation; neither can our solutions.
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  #27   ^
Old Thu, Apr-26-18, 07:24
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teaser teaser is offline
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...80419141523.htm

Quote:
Older adults who take a novel antioxidant that specifically targets cellular powerhouses, or mitochondria, see age-related vascular changes reverse by the equivalent of 15 to 20 years within six weeks, according to new University of Colorado Boulder research.

The study, published this week in the American Heart Association journal Hypertension, adds to a growing body of evidence suggesting pharmaceutical-grade nutritional supplements, or nutraceuticals, could play an important role in preventing heart disease-the nation's No. 1 killer. It also resurrects the notion that oral antioxidants, which have been broadly dismissed as ineffective in recent years, could reap measurable health benefits if properly targeted, the authors say.

"This is the first clinical trial to assess the impact of a mitochondrial-specific antioxidant on vascular function in humans," said lead author Matthew Rossman, a postdoctoral researcher in the department of integrative physiology. "It suggests that therapies like this may hold real promise for reducing the risk of age-related cardiovascular disease."

For the study, Rossman and senior author Doug Seals, director of the Integrative Physiology of Aging Laboratory, recruited 20 healthy men and women age 60 to 79 from the Boulder area.

Half took 20 milligrams per day of a supplement called MitoQ, made by chemically altering the naturally-occurring antioxidant Coenzyme Q10 to make it cling to mitochondria inside cells.

The other half took a placebo.

After six weeks, researchers assessed how well the lining of blood vessels, or the endothelium, functioned, by measuring how much subjects' arteries dilated with increased blood flow.

Then, after a two-week "wash out" period of taking nothing, the two groups switched, with the placebo group taking the supplement, and vice versa. The tests were repeated.

The researchers found that when taking the supplement, dilation of subjects' arteries improved by 42 percent, making their blood vessels, at least by that measure, look like those of someone 15 to 20 years younger. An improvement of that magnitude, if sustained, is associated with about a 13 percent reduction in heart disease, Rossman said. The study also showed that the improvement in dilation was due to a reduction in oxidative stress.

In participants who, under placebo conditions, had stiffer arteries, supplementation was associated with reduced stiffness.

Blood vessels grow stiff with age largely as a result of oxidative stress, the excess production of metabolic byproducts called free radicals which can damage the endothelium and impair its function. During youth, bodies produce enough antioxidants to quench those free radicals. But with age, the balance tips, as mitochondria and other cellular processes produce excess free radicals and the body's antioxidant defenses can't keep up, Rossman said.

Oral antioxidant supplements like vitamin C and vitamin E fell out of favor after studies showed them to be ineffective.

"This study breathes new life into the discredited theory that supplementing the diet with antioxidants can improve health," said Seals. "It suggests that targeting a specific source-mitochondria-may be a better way to reduce oxidative stress and improve cardiovascular health with aging."

The study was funded by the National Institutes of Health. MitoQ Limited provided supplements and some financial support.

This summer, Rossman and Seals plan to launch a three-month follow-up study to confirm the findings in a larger number of subjects and look more closely at the impact the compound has on mitochondria.

The same lab published another study recently, showing that a compound called nicotinamide riboside may also be able to reverse vascular aging in healthy subjects.

"Exercise and eating a healthy diet are the most well-established approaches for maintaining cardiovascular health," said Seals. "But at the public health level, not enough people are willing to do that. We're looking for complementary, evidence-based options to prevent age-related changes that drive disease. These supplements may be among them."


This article came with a picture of broccoli. Might as well have been a supernova, for all it had to do with the story.

Maybe more of a drug than a nutrient. Makes a point, though, just being classed as an antioxidant doesn't really tell what's going to happen after something's consumed. It would be interesting to see if this stuff has some of the other antioxidant effects, like preventing adaptation to exercise (at least in young, non-insulin resistant types), etc.
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  #28   ^
Old Thu, Apr-26-18, 07:31
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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Once again, I see them forcing the body to do something in an un-natural way when it is better to give the body what it needs to do this in a more functional way.

Like giving insulin to diabetics; truly life-saving for Type I, who cannot make it themselves; disastrous in Type II, where it increases insulin resistance, worsens the metabolic disorder, and creates the nightmare we see around us today.
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  #29   ^
Old Fri, May-04-18, 00:46
SilverEm SilverEm is offline
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Thanks very much for posting about antioxidants having adverse effects.

I found this study with MitoQ:

https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley....4814/phy2.13667

The targeted anti-oxidant MitoQ causes mitochondrial swelling and depolarization in kidney tissue.

Gottwald EM1, Duss M2, Bugarski M1, Haenni D1,3, Schuh CD1, Landau EM2, Hall AM1,4.


Here is the last sentence of the summary in the abstract:

In summary, MitoQ causes mitochondrial swelling and depolarization in PT cells by a mechanism unrelated to anti-oxidant activity, most likely because of increased IMM permeability due to insertion of the alkyl chain.


----


I tried astaxanthin, and also zeaxanthin, each, for about two years, hoping it would improve eyesight. I noticed no change whatsoever. I used good brands, such as Dr's. Best.
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  #30   ^
Old Fri, May-04-18, 09:01
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teaser teaser is offline
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Interesting. Also interesting the bits speculating about a possibility some of the effects that are assumed to be beneficial in other studies might be as much a result of increased mitochondrial permeability as to an antioxidant effect. Earlier today, can't find it right now, I saw mention somewhere else of MitoQ also having this effect of the lipid bilayer of lysosomes, also increasing permeability, raising questions of where else they might be having some unexpected effects.
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