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  #16   ^
Old Sun, Feb-05-17, 12:40
Blue Ruby Blue Ruby is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 648
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 200/170/160 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: BC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Like I said, this is endocrinologist territory, don't try to fix it by talking to yahoo's like me on the internet, kick your doctor in the shins until he refers you to an endo.


Yes!
Also-- just in case this applies, diabetes insipidus is a risk factor for people who have been treated with lithium and can come on very suddenly. So even if you've been stable for a long while and don't think it's relevant, if you're on lithium this needs to be checked. Of course, if you are on lithium, your doc should be checking your kidney function regularly.

Good luck with this.
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  #17   ^
Old Sun, Feb-05-17, 17:19
Konflict Konflict is offline
New Member
Posts: 22
 
Plan: Paleo/Keto
Stats: 195/200/190 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress:
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I feel more horrible by the day even with a balanced diet....I may have to seek a private endo. I feel the serotonin in my brain has been depleted.
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  #18   ^
Old Sun, Feb-05-17, 17:29
Konflict Konflict is offline
New Member
Posts: 22
 
Plan: Paleo/Keto
Stats: 195/200/190 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress:
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I just wanted to come to a forum like this to see what kind of advise or information I could get, seeing maybe if this is something that's happened before to other users or low carbers here.
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  #19   ^
Old Sun, Feb-05-17, 19:17
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Of course, that's a reasonable thing to do, see if your symptoms are at all common. They really aren't, you do see milder cases of dehydration or symptoms of electrolyte imbalances, but I've never seen anybody describe something that goes as far as what you're experiencing.
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  #20   ^
Old Mon, Feb-06-17, 02:29
Konflict Konflict is offline
New Member
Posts: 22
 
Plan: Paleo/Keto
Stats: 195/200/190 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress:
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https://authoritynutrition.com/low-...omens-hormones/

Yes this is an article for women but it should apply to men as well
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  #21   ^
Old Mon, Feb-06-17, 07:07
patriciakr's Avatar
patriciakr patriciakr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,734
 
Plan: CALP with Primal Leanings
Stats: 368/291.2/160 Female 5' 4
BF:toodmnmch
Progress: 37%
Location: In the woods
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Like I said, this is endocrinologist territory, don't try to fix it by talking to yahoo's like me on the internet, kick your doctor in the shins until he refers you to an endo.

This. No one can give you an answer here, we are not there, we are not doctors, you need to see an appropriate specialist, without delay, if you are this ill.
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  #22   ^
Old Mon, Feb-06-17, 07:48
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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If you take a person who's been on a 24 hour fast, and give their glucocorticoid/cortisol levels to a person whose been eating a high carb diet all day--that's an unhealthy hormonal profile, it's inappropriate to the current needs of the body. High cortisol with replete liver glycogen and high insulin and you just ate a bag of chips is a very different story from high cortisol, depleted glycogen and low insulin. Even human growth hormone with a high insulin state is a bad idea, you've got hormones working at cross-purposes.

What we have are studies looking at higher cortisol in people on low carb diets, and wondering, "does it matter." Against this--on this board, we have people reversing their type II diabetes (or at least all symptoms, unless they return to high carb), reversing their obesity. Elevated stress? I have bipolar and social anxiety. I have to admit that standard low carb doesn't do much for these (although it did early on, I think, when I had more weight to lose)--but pushing things further, a more ketogenic diet, even stricter with the carbohydrate and also careful not to overdo it on the protein--does. Is my cortisol elevated? I don't know--but I know I'm less stressed out. I'm currently happy with whatever it is my hormones are up to.
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  #23   ^
Old Mon, Feb-06-17, 09:05
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konflict
https://authoritynutrition.com/low-...omens-hormones/

Yes this is an article for women but it should apply to men as well


I just read the article and it is sensible. It is clear that for some women, they do better if they eat MORE carbs. And for others, they do better if they eat FEWER carbs.

While male and female hormone profiles are obviously different, I think you could also assume that some men do better with MORE carbs (and others do better with FEWER).

If you are convinced from your reading that some people do better with MORE carbs, and you seem to think you might be one of them, then why don't you eat MORE carbs? Perhaps a ketogenic is not the best way to eat for YOU. Everyone should make their own decision on how best to eat. That decision should be based on research and n=1 experiments.

On the other hand, your symptoms sound extreme and not at all like other experiences we commonly see around here - I agree with others who urge you to consult a true expert.
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  #24   ^
Old Mon, Feb-06-17, 09:48
Konflict Konflict is offline
New Member
Posts: 22
 
Plan: Paleo/Keto
Stats: 195/200/190 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress:
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Thank you all for the suggestions. Yes I'm currently trying to get a referral for an endo (hate how the health care system works).

I'm currently eating more carbs than fat or protein in my diet. I truly believe I messed up my HPA/HPT signaling and it's causing these crippling symptoms that keep progressing.

I'm seriously surprised that no one else here has heard of anyone messing up their thyroid from this diet? I literally can't be the only one when there's studies all over about it. Hopefully it doesn't effect anyone here because this has turned my life completely upside down in every way possible.
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  #25   ^
Old Mon, Feb-06-17, 10:14
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Of course we've heard about people messing up their thyroid from this diet. Speaking for myself--I just don't believe it. The studies at Authority Nutrition do not show that low carb messes up your thyroid--they show that there's a different hormonal response to low carb than to high carb. That's all they show. More rigorous studies are needed to see whether there's anything to all this speculation. In the meantime, low carb=crappy hormonal status is very poorly supported. I'm speaking in generalities here, there are specific hormonal/genetic backgrounds that might not do well on low carb, there's no reason to believe that hormonal dysregulation is the norm.
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  #26   ^
Old Mon, Feb-06-17, 10:27
DelaneyLC DelaneyLC is offline
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Posts: 2,462
 
Plan: Keto/Carnivore/Fasting
Stats: 190/143/144 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 102%
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Carbs are not essential..I doubt you could have messed up your system from eating low carb, especially not that quickly. There is an adjustment period from removing all that sugar from your system, but not in a bad way. That being said this WOE isn't for everyone. Your health issues are probably something other than diet related. It's best to get that checked out by a doctor.

Last edited by DelaneyLC : Mon, Feb-06-17 at 19:00.
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  #27   ^
Old Mon, Feb-06-17, 10:45
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Hormones and Components of the Metabolic Syndrome (Table 3)

Serum leptin was highest with the LF diet (14.9 [12.1 to 18.4] ng/mL), intermediate with the LGI diet (12.7 [10.3 to 15.6] ng/mL) and lowest with the VLC diet (11.2 [9.1 to 13.8] ng/mL; P=0.0006). Cortisol excretion measured with a 24-hour urine collection (LF: 50 [41 to 60] μg/d; LGI: 60 [49 to 73] μg/d; VLC: 71 [58 to 86] μg/d; P=0.005) and serum TSH (LF: 1.27 [1.01 to 1.60] μIU/mL; LGI: 1.22 [0.97 to 1.54] μIU/mL; VLC: 1.11 [0.88 to 1.40] μIU/mL; P=0.04) also differed in a linear fashion by glycemic load. Serum T3 was lower with the VLC diet compared to the other two diets (LF: 121 [108 to 135] ng/dL; LGI: 123 [110 to 137] ng/dL; VLC: 108 [96 to 120] ng/dL; P=0.006).


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3564212/

This is one of the studies used at Authority Nutrition to support that low carb diets can have an adverse effect hormonally. This is from a study showing less of a metabolic slowdown in maintenance after weight loss with the low carb diet than with a low glycemic index diet or with a low fat, higher carbohydrate diet. A t3 of 108 vs. a t3 of 121 in a low carb diet vs. a high carb diet is not hypothyroid. A 24 hour urine cortisol of 71 vs. 51 in a low carb vs. a high carb diet is not hypercortisol. (Normal range is 10-100). TSH is also a little higher in high carb than in low carb, a move in the "wrong" direction, the low carb diet did "better"--but not really big enough to worry about.
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  #28   ^
Old Mon, Feb-06-17, 11:15
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Again at the Authority Nutrition article, here's the claim;


A Moderate Carb Intake May Be Better for Some Women

Quote:
Certain women may do better consuming a moderate amount of carbs, or around 100–150 grams daily. This includes women who:

Have an underactive thyroid, despite taking medication (14).


And here's the support, reference 14;

Quote:
Effect of caloric restriction and dietary composition of serum T3 and reverse T3 in man.
Spaulding SW, Chopra IJ, Sherwin RS, Lyall SS.
Abstract
To evaluate the effect of caloric restriction and dietary composition on circulating T3 and rT3 obese subjects were studied after 7-18 days of total fasting and while on randomized hypocaloric diets (800 kcal) in which carbohydrate content was varied to provide from 0 to 100% calories. As anticipated, total fasting resulted in a 53% reduction in serum T3 in association with reciprocal 58% increase in rT3. Subjects receiving the no-carbohydrate hypocaloric diets for two weeks demonstrated a similar 47% decline in serum T3 but there was no significant change in rT3 with time. In contrast, the same subjects receiving isocaloric diets containing at least 50 g of carbohydrate showed no significant changes in either T3 or rT3 concentration. The decline in serum T3 during the no-carbohydrate diet correlated significantly with blood glucose and ketones but there was no correlation with insulin or glucagon. We conclude that dietary carbohydrate is an important regulatory factor in T3 production in man. In contrast, rT3 concentration is not significantly affected by changes in dietary carbohydrate. Our data suggest that the rise in serum rT3 during starvation may be related to more severe caloric restriction than that caused by the 800 kcal diet.


An 800 calorie diet. Based on this, the recommendation

Quote:
around 100–150 grams daily.


is made, even though all it took to avoid significant changes to thyroid in the study was about 50 grams. If there's a basis for the recommendation, it's not to be found in the reference. Besides this--you can't look at thyroid changes on 800 calories a day, and say that the same would be true at say 1600 calories a day. Also--as I've said before, there's a difference between inappropriate hormone levels, and hormone levels that are simply appropriate to the diet (or lack of diet in the case of fasting).

Understand that I'm not trying to sell you personally on a low carb diet, if a poor outcome coincided with you eating that diet, it makes sense for you to avoid anything new you were doing when you had that outcome. But a lot of people need this bridge, there's no point in burning it down for them, too, without much better evidence.
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  #29   ^
Old Mon, Feb-06-17, 12:29
Konflict Konflict is offline
New Member
Posts: 22
 
Plan: Paleo/Keto
Stats: 195/200/190 Male 5'9"
BF:
Progress:
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Bro I was eating 20-30g carbs on a 2500 calorie a day diet
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  #30   ^
Old Mon, Feb-06-17, 12:49
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I said, I am not talking about you. It's entirely possible that your individual metabolism responds poorly to a low carb diet, going in, I would never rule out this possibility. See an endo. Don't think that you can use your n=1 plus a bunch of possibly unrelated "evidence" to debunk low carb on a more general level.
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