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  #61   ^
Old Tue, Sep-01-20, 10:03
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Posts: 4,878
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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I haven't been doing doing Marty Kendall's data driven fasting but I have been taking his Nutrition masterclasses. I am now participating in my fourth. My main take away from the class is that in order to increase satiety one needs to prioritize protein. It really works. When I started the first masterclass I had gained about 15 pounds. I have now lost all that weight and then some while feeling less hungry and maximizing the nutrients in my diet.. For now I am quite satisfied with how I am doing. I might also try the data driven fasting but at the moment it feels like it will create too many moving parts for me to juggle. I figure I'm doing well as I am. Maybe I could improve things but at the moment I am satisfied. Good enough is what I say. I certainly think it is worth paying attention to what Marty Kendall has to say. Following his nutritional advise has really helped me optimize my diet.
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  #62   ^
Old Tue, Sep-01-20, 11:38
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 15,446
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/232/200 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 42%
Location: Massachusetts
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Trudging thru his website, looking for nuggets. Still trying to understand his plan.

So far, its very much like lc/ Atkins. This just screamed Atkins tto me:

Quote:
High satiety nutrient-dense foods and meals -> decreased cravings and appetite -> decreased energy intake -> fat loss -> healthy insulin levels

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  #63   ^
Old Tue, Sep-01-20, 15:41
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,828
 
Plan: P:E/DDF/LC-DrWestman
Stats: 225/156/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/29%/25%
Progress: 123%
Location: NC
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The food is not the focus of the Fasting Program. For me the food is mainly increasing carbs from vegetables, lots more vegetables, but I am not tracking foods at all. Eating protein first, add more veggies, no junk, no alcohol. No dairy is something I decided to do after watching BG after food the first week.


Rather, I am using a glucose meter to determine when to eat... Can I compress an eating window? Skip a meal? Without stressing about a 36-42 hour fast. Eat only when really hungry...indicated by BG under a personalized trigger level.

Quote:
While most people focus on how much their blood sugar rises AFTER meals, Data-Driven Fasting uses your blood sugar BEFORE you eat to help you decide if you need to refuel.
Waiting until your blood sugar returns to baseline ensures you are not over-fueling. But, waiting a little longer until your blood sugar has dropped *below *your personalised blood glucose trigger point ensures your intermittent fasting routine is achieving a negative energy balance. By doing this, you ensure you get all the associated benefits, like insulin sensitivity, improved blood sugars, weight loss, fat loss, autophagy, etc. over the long term.
**One of the underappreciated secrets of fat loss is that you need to deplete the glucose in your bloodstream before your body can access your body fat.
If your blood sugars are elevated, you’re not going to be burning as much of the fat from your last meal (let alone that unwanted fat on your bum and belly).
Some people talk about eating more fat to become “fat adapted” so you can be “in ketosis” and burn more fat. But the truth is, if you want to burn the fat on your body (rather than that fat bomb or second buttered coffee), you need to find a way to deplete the glucose in your bloodstream first!
from Mary Kendall"s DDF manual.

Jean knows all about the foods and micronutrients

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, Sep-01-20 at 15:50.
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  #64   ^
Old Tue, Sep-01-20, 18:46
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 4,878
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
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Marty Kendall is about prioritizing protein for satiety and eating nutrient dense whole foods but he is not necessarily low carb nor is he high carb and he is certainly anti junk processed food. Instead of a one size fits all approach he goes for a see what's working and adjust accordingly. His approach is very much in line with Ted Naiman's P/E (protein/energy) ratio. And of course he advocates paying attention to the micronutrient content of food and has developed what he calls the ONI or Optimal nutrient Intake as opposed to the RDI, that is optimizing nutrients for maximum benefit rather than focusing on the minimal amount of nutrients needed to prevent disease.
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  #65   ^
Old Tue, Sep-01-20, 19:01
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Posts: 13,341
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
My main take away from the class is that in order to increase satiety one needs to prioritize protein. It really works.


That has been my experience, too.
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  #66   ^
Old Wed, Sep-02-20, 03:42
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,828
 
Plan: P:E/DDF/LC-DrWestman
Stats: 225/156/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/29%/25%
Progress: 123%
Location: NC
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One DDF tip on training hunger, is when BG is under your personal target, make that first meal protein heavy. I’ve been making 2 eggs, leftover chicken or beef, and sautéed greens. Zero cravings to next time BG is low enough for second meal. From all his collected data, the people who eat two meals a day, eat fewer calories total than those who eat OMAD.

I am eating more protein and more micronutrient rich veggies than in recent past, but determined the weighing and measuring needed for Cronometer was too much for me with BG tracking too. Going back to Atkins 2010 with 15 net carbs of the 20 had to be foundation vegetables, works for me. Not tracking but remembering that is a boatload of vegetables

How to really reverse your insulin resistance

https://optimisingnutrition.com/how...e-your-insulin/

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Sep-02-20 at 04:42.
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  #67   ^
Old Wed, Sep-02-20, 05:41
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,341
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
One DDF tip on training hunger, is when BG is under your personal target, make that first meal protein heavy.


That's fascinating. While all my meals are protein heavy I also aim for very low carbs at that first meal, and loosen up on the second one.
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  #68   ^
Old Wed, Sep-02-20, 06:48
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 15,446
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/232/200 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 42%
Location: Massachusetts
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From the time of uncontrolled ptsd, resetting the cortisol/ melatonin pattern was based entirely on ramping up carbs thru the day. Starting with none at first meal allowing cortisol its normal high, then the most at last meal to up seratonin and consequently melatonin. Worked.

Makes sense to eat when bg low. That would fit a hunter-gatherer pattern.
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  #69   ^
Old Wed, Sep-02-20, 07:15
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 15,446
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/232/200 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 42%
Location: Massachusetts
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Most of article makes petfect sense. Confused over a couple points.


Quote:
If you have a healthy functioning pancreas, your insulin works in a well-controlled manner to keep your energy in storage while you have energy coming in via your mouth.


How does anyone know if the pancras is healthy??


Quote:
From all his collected data, the people who eat two meals a day, eat fewer calories total than those who eat OMAD.


While my experience is n=1, when I switch to OMAD my weight drops, on 2mad it holds. So the conclusion above is confusing.
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  #70   ^
Old Wed, Sep-02-20, 08:57
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,828
 
Plan: P:E/DDF/LC-DrWestman
Stats: 225/156/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/29%/25%
Progress: 123%
Location: NC
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Think he means pancreas is healthy if you do not have T1 diabetes. Even T2’s can have a functioning "healthy" pancreas.

The conclusion we eat fewer calories with two meals/day comes from his own data analysis, explained here: https://optimisingnutrition.com/how...-you-eat-a-day/
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  #71   ^
Old Wed, Sep-02-20, 09:10
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 8,275
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/229/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 92%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
... Rather, I am using a glucose meter to determine when to eat... Can I compress an eating window? Skip a meal? Without stressing about a 36-42 hour fast. Eat only when really hungry...indicated by BG under a personalized trigger level.

Quote:
While most people focus on how much their blood sugar rises AFTER meals, Data-Driven Fasting uses your blood sugar BEFORE you eat to help you decide if you need to refuel.

Waiting until your blood sugar returns to baseline ensures you are not over-fueling. But, waiting a little longer until your blood sugar has dropped *below *your personalized blood glucose trigger point ensures your intermittent fasting routine is achieving a negative energy balance. By doing this, you ensure you get all the associated benefits, like insulin sensitivity, improved blood sugars, weight loss, fat loss, autophagy, etc. over the long term.
**One of the underappreciated secrets of fat loss is that you need to deplete the glucose in your bloodstream before your body can access your body fat. If your blood sugars are elevated, you’re not going to be burning as much of the fat from your last meal (let alone that unwanted fat on your bum and belly). Some people talk about eating more fat to become “fat adapted” so you can be “in ketosis” and burn more fat. But the truth is, if you want to burn the fat on your body (rather than that fat bomb or second buttered coffee), you need to find a way to deplete the glucose in your bloodstream first!


from Mary Kendall"s DDF manual.

I found this statement rather eye-opening. Thanks for posting it, Janet! This might explain why I've creeping up in weight since maintenance while staying keto and actually trying to shed the added weight. From this past May through July I was eating the diet that had me shedding 6 to 8 pounds per month back in 2016 while I was at approximately the same body weight as I am now. I only lost 2 or 3 pounds total. What I was doing before seems to have stopped working.

Since reaching my goal weight in 2016 my BG, my weight and my A1c have been slowly on the rise. My FBG readings in 2015 were always in the 70's and low 80's. My BG never went higher than 100 except maybe during a higher carb LC meal. After almost 7 years eating LCHF/Keto my FBG is now in the upper 90's (or higher) and my A1c last time was nearly back to prediabetic. If the comment in bold above is correct, then maybe my problem these past few years has been my rising BG. The one thing that I have not done much of since reaching my goal weight is fasting. I've missed a few meals, but that's about it. In 2015 & 2016 on my way to goal I was fasting regularly, included a few EFs. I've assumed that my higher BG was due to long-term VLC/Keto and perhaps too much daily protein. Maybe fasting is what I needed.

This month I'm giving ADF a try - hoping for good results. I'll start checking my BG more often. I hope to see it heading in the right directions. If this happens, maybe the scale will follow suit.

Last edited by khrussva : Wed, Sep-02-20 at 09:20.
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  #72   ^
Old Wed, Sep-02-20, 09:32
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,662
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
Marty Kendall is about prioritizing protein for satiety and eating nutrient dense whole foods but he is not necessarily low carb nor is he high carb and he is certainly anti junk processed food. Instead of a one size fits all approach he goes for a see what's working and adjust accordingly. His approach is very much in line with Ted Naiman's P/E (protein/energy) ratio. And of course he advocates paying attention to the micronutrient content of food and has developed what he calls the ONI or Optimal nutrient Intake as opposed to the RDI, that is optimizing nutrients for maximum benefit rather than focusing on the minimal amount of nutrients needed to prevent disease.

I do best by optimizing protein as well. It's been over 18 months since I increased my daily protein consumption, and it's made all the difference. I saw the folly of previously maintaining consumption of a high level of fat, and now I don't think about it. I just eat what fat my healthy protein brings me and take advantage of the fat that my onboard pantry has in store. Westman, Naiman, and Kendall have programs that I've adapted, and the combination works for me.
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  #73   ^
Old Wed, Sep-02-20, 10:04
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,446
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/232/200 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 42%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Think he means pancreas is healthy if you do not have T1 diabetes. Even T2’s can have a functioning "healthy" pancreas.

The conclusion we eat fewer calories with two meals/day comes from his own data analysis, explained here: https://optimisingnutrition.com/how...-you-eat-a-day/



Interesting presentation. Im not entirely convinced that everyone fits in to these catagories. And he mentions the data sources from people self reporting which is very prone to errors, especially the foods eaten. Pethaps Im asumming too much here on the source of the data.

The data looks reasonable.
Perhaps my body just doesnt fit this data.
Which leads me to, how many others dont fit.

Well worth reading though.

"
Perhaps one meal a day doesn’t work so well because you are SOOOO hungry by the time you get to eat that you keep on eating and eating and eating; more than you would if you weren’t as hungry when you started eating. And if you are at home with unlimited access to the fridge and cupboard from dinner time until you go to bed, you can still get a lot of food in! "

Why are the subjects soooooo hungry? I remember my 37 day omad trial. Initally, yes, ate a lot in one meal. Stuffed. Had to ignore food calling in the evening. As pushed forward, the meals
became smaller and the desire for evening food decreased. Portion at meal time became smaller as I just couldnt finish meal. This was omad M-F, 2mad on weekends. Weight dropped FAST.

But then I was eating LCHF, some meals wualified as keto. The more keto the less hungries in evening.


Years ago in college I dropped 20 in a semester. Ate SAD 3 MEALS a day. Last meal finushed by 4. Studying was difficult as I was starving all evening, running to bubbler constantly, trying to stop the hungries.

Bet keto has a different result than SAD for optimal number of meals a day.

Good to know both feeding options work well together. His top 2 options. Omad and 2mad.

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Wed, Sep-02-20 at 10:57.
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  #74   ^
Old Wed, Sep-02-20, 10:27
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,828
 
Plan: P:E/DDF/LC-DrWestman
Stats: 225/156/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/29%/25%
Progress: 123%
Location: NC
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Just stumbled across the Front Loading Protein Tip.
Quote:
14. Front-load your protein to hack your satiety

We also found that people who eat more protein at their first meal of the day tend to eat a lot less across the day. So do what you can to make sure your first full meal is “hearty” with plenty of protein (e.g. steak and eggs, not a Bulletproof Coffee or croissant).
Perhaps you could eat a big breakfast before work with plenty of protein and have a small lunch or skip lunch at work and have dinner with the family after work once your blood sugars drop. Or maybe you have coffee first up (black or with just a dash of milk or cream) and eat a large cooked meal in the middle of the day and then a moderate dinner with the family after work.
Try to find the routine that works for you that allows you to eat in a controlled manner and avoid ravenous late-night hoovering of everything in the fridge just before you go to bed.


Ken, I worked myself back into a similar place as you with the one month cruise/trip merging into lockdown starting in early February. Although I could do ADF fasting, and even fasted for 6 days once, I always had trouble sleeping the second night without food. It seems I will settle into 2 or 1 meals a day with hunger training.

Knowing your interest in data/IT you might consider trying the actual Program. You get Excel spreadsheets...how fun is that There is a month's Challenge that starts Sept 5th, where the first three days are to establish your Baseline Trigger, followed by Hunger Training. I used the DDF book on my own to establish my baseline and check foods in early August, so have now signed up for the Program without the group support. Either way, it may be the renewed focus or just "something new" to add to all the complex reasons for weight loss, but it is working for now.
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  #75   ^
Old Wed, Sep-02-20, 10:53
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 14,619
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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If your blood sugar is under reasonable control, your pancreas is probably not doing too bad.

Data-driven fasting--waiting for blood sugar to be low before eating--reminds of a series of experiments I read about a while back. I think they started with some sort of digestive disorder in children, but they moved on to overweight in adults.

The researchers had a theory about distinct types of hunger. One they called physiological, hunger pangs, a dip in blood sugar. The other one was sort of more a brain-driven drive to eat, like a head craving. They did a series of experiments where they had people eat to blood glucose monitors. Basically if they felt like eating, they would check their blood glucose--and if the feeling coincided with blood glucose below a certain number, they'd eat. Otherwise they'd check again an hour later, until the number matched. They found with time, people were able to accurately predict blood glucose from their subjective hunger ratings, and the two types of hunger tended to occur together--it was trainable. Wish I had a link--the terms they used were specific to their research, so it's hard to just google. Somewhere way back in my journal.
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