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  #46   ^
Old Sun, May-03-20, 07:04
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,341
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benay
Yes, I read what he said about eating real foods to get the right combinations of macro-nutrients.

If I ate all those real foods, not only would I gain weight I would also get my inflammatory issues back. Recommended veggies give me irritable bowel syndrome.

I supplement rather than spend my life in the bathroom.


Likewise, I have radically revamped what I eat for incredible healing benefits. And I totally believe in my hand-picked lineup of supplements:

Which can't be gotten enough from food unless I eat past appetite.
  • Vitamin D3/K2
  • niacin
  • Vitamin C
  • B complex
  • magnesium

Which CAN'T be gotten from food.
  • progesterone
  • PEA
  • RAW thyroid
  • pregnenolone

Every time I have tracked my food, I eat more, sometimes far more, than the RDA, except for Vitamin D. However, RDA is set for avoiding deficiency disease: not optimum health.

We shouldn't rely on vitamins instead of eating well. We also can't always rely on eating well.
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  #47   ^
Old Mon, May-04-20, 04:23
Benay's Avatar
Benay Benay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 778
 
Plan: Protein Power/Atkins
Stats: 250/181/165 Female 5 feet 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 81%
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
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One-size-fits-all advice does not apply to outliers
They are generalizations only
Since each of us is different - and the 'rules' don't apply equally well
we need to create our own solutions that meet our needs
I'm with you Werebear
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  #48   ^
Old Mon, Aug-24-20, 03:58
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,828
 
Plan: P:E/DDF/LC-DrWestman
Stats: 225/156/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/29%/25%
Progress: 123%
Location: NC
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On another Fasting thread, I wrote about Marty's new Data Driven Fasting protocol...how to fast based on your own personal hunger "trigger" or fuel gauge.

After not even having a BG meter for about two years, I have been testing many times a day. Once I cleaned up my diet, my BG readings are basically flatlining. So Marty's newest post is written for me..maybe others.

Quote:
Want to lose fat? DONíT aim for stable blood sugars! (Why your CGM could be making you fat)


If there was anything I thought I knew when I was an insulin-fearing keto zealot, it was:

the blood sugar roller coaster is bad, and
stable blood sugars were good.

According to the keto gurus that I was following, if you wanted to lose fat and optimise your metabolic health, the most important thing you could do was to eat fewer carbs to achieve flatline blood sugars to ďturn off insulinĒ.

Continues https://optimisingnutrition.com/wan...making-you-fat/


But what if Iím insulin resistant?
Many people have developed a victim mentality (I was one of them).

They blame their obesity on their insulin resistance.

They think being insulin resistant makes it harder for them to lose weight.

But, the reverse is actually true.

When you are lean and insulin sensitive, your body is only too willing to store energy and grow. However, once you become insulin resistant, your body is only too willing to offload the excess energy as soon as you stop jamming in excess energy from low satiety nutrient-poor processed foods.

Last edited by JEY100 : Mon, Aug-24-20 at 05:12.
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  #49   ^
Old Mon, Aug-24-20, 07:47
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 14,618
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
There are also plenty of people who get excited about tracking ketone values. BHB ketones in the blood are simply a marker that you donít have adequate oxaloacetate from protein and/or carbs to enable fat to be burned in the Krebs cycle.


Here I'd add "in the liver." Otherwise you might end up in the "fat burns in the flame of carbohydrate" territory--the liver's inefficiency that produces ketones is special to the liver. Gluconeogenesis is an oxaloacetate sink. You don't have to be in ketosis to be burning lots of fat--but ketosis shouldn't be mistaken as showing a more general inability to efficiently burn fat.

I've seen people on facebook go so far as to suggest that ketones in the urine show that a person isn't fat adapted, something that's really not true.

I actually don't think post-meal--at least the few hours after a meal--insulin is a real big issue for bodyweight. Fasting insulin might be. But define fasting. If your liver glycogen is depleted, your 'fasting' insulin is likely to be lower. That's postmeal, but it's postmeal after return to fasting glucose levels. Fasting glucose only goes so far in showing your metabolic state.

Dietary fat mixed with carbs keeps insulin elevated longer, even if the peak is lower. For a given level of carb intake. Fat alone won't raise insulin much at all.

Earlier high carb low fat researchers talked about a glycogen-stat--people eating to maintain glycogen at a certain level. Fat didn't add to this so sort of came along for the ride. So, don't eat fat. The other side is--people eat to maintain the glycogen they're accustomed to. Fat still comes along for the ride. But you can take the wheels of by becoming sort of unaccustomed.

For me--the reason we have the insulin and carbohydrate and palatability hypotheses is to explain observed events. We can pick at the hypotheses--but still need to explain the observed events--such as, overweight people often spontaneously losing weight just eating low-carb foods (which may be less insulinogenic, but that doesn't necessarily make that the mechanism) to appetite. You can never use hypothesis or even more established theory to disregard observation.

Also for me, personally--I ate Atkins with unlimited protein for years, that got me down around 170, I had to struggle to get down to 160, tried a 4:1 very high fat ketogenic diet after painstakingly dieting down to the mid-150s--and found easier maintenance there. That's 90 percent fat by calories--now I'm more around 80-85, but still haven't climbed out of the 150s, usually between 153-156, and I've been there for years.

Glycemic index nonsense had full-sugar ice cream looking better than plain baked potatoes. I'd take the potato, fortunately I don't have to take either. But even there--okay. Bigger glycemic response, maybe higher initial insulin. You return to baseline--free fatty acids may end up higher than before eating. They get suppressed by the insulin, mechanisms to dispose of glucose are upregulated to handle all that glucose washing into the system--but then as the incoming glucose dwindles, there's a counterregulatory hormonal response to prevent a hypoglycemic event.

I do think it's still much about the insulin--it's just that it's not as simple as we'd hope for.
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  #50   ^
Old Mon, Aug-24-20, 09:37
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
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Posts: 4,160
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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I see Marty's list of real foods as a starting point and delete all the suggestions that I know cause me inflammation (similar to Benay) and take supplements (similar to Werebear). And like Janet, once I cleaned up my diet, my BG readings basically flatlined.

What really struck me when Marty started his website and plotted various foods and their insulin responses, is that all my trigger foods caused higher than average insulin responses and they are the ones that cause me inflammation. Knowing that there is quantitative data that supports what I figured out qualitatively via elimination diets & food journaling helps me stay on (my) plan.

Atkins '72 told people to limit cream intake to 4 tsp/day and it worked for me, but I never liked the "I'm the doctor" reasoning for why to follow a plan, I need to see the science behind it and to observe how I react to each food. I suspect I am hyperreactive to certain foods compared to the average person. And the worst foods for me contain dairy proteins or "healthy" plant proteins. 1-2T of peanut butter will cause the bursae in my wrists & a couple of knuckles to pop out and ache. Dairy proteins cause nerve pain, "trigger-finger" and plantar fasciitis. I'm fine if I stick to meat, fish & poultry proteins.

Last edited by deirdra : Mon, Aug-24-20 at 10:07.
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  #51   ^
Old Mon, Aug-24-20, 13:18
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,828
 
Plan: P:E/DDF/LC-DrWestman
Stats: 225/156/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/29%/25%
Progress: 123%
Location: NC
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Teaser, you have lost me per usual...but I get parts of it Marty addresses some of your comments in the whole DDF book..free and 164 pages. He doesnít suggest tracking ketones at all...using an old Dr Westman video and others why that is not necessary, so that is out of the picture. Post-meal BG readings can be dropped early and not tracked after you know the foods that raise BG. At one hour after meals, though not wildly high, it is clear the yogurt and cottage cheese Ok with Ted Naiman do not work for me Coffee and stevia seem OK. So I can use the hunger trigger point to decide when to break a fast with only a morning and pre-meal BG. The article posted seems for experienced LCers with remaining fat, where "energy toxicity" rather than insulin toxicity, is the worry.
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  #52   ^
Old Mon, Aug-24-20, 14:27
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 14,618
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Don't worry, probably lost me somewhere in there too.

Tracking ketones--I think maybe for neuro-stuff, including even just people who say they get less brain-for when eating ketogenically, it might be worth it. Which isn't to say ketosis is necessary for the effect if it's there, just that it might be worth checking to see. If blood ketones were as cheap to check as blood glucose, I'd probably do it for a while, just to see. I don't think it's necessary--I sort of know the effect of eating like this or that anyways.

Cottage cheese--I used to buy this early on, seemed a good crossover from low fat to low carb days, just bought higher fat cottage cheese when going low carb. It didn't actually work. A 500 ml tub of cottage cheese has maybe 500 calories but 60 grams of protein or so? Protein leverage? If I bought 5 to last Monday to Friday, I'd eat two or three the first day. I think there's something to protein leverage, but not much honestly. Sort of like--if all of your food is lower protein, you might overeat to get to adequate protein intake. I have not noticed honestly any effect of higher protein--if it comes with appreciable carbs or fat at all--in reducing appetite or preventing overeating.

I find 'ready now' a major issue with food. If I cook just enough for a meal, I may just eat it--and then be too lazy to cook some more. If I cook enough for two meals--I'm not too lazy to eat twice as much. If I make a one pound pork chop I'll eat it--even though I know if I'd just cooked half a pound, I'd likely be satisfied.
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  #53   ^
Old Mon, Aug-24-20, 15:37
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,341
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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A funny thing I've found now that I'm back on whey smoothies; they are incredibly satiating to me now. And on paper they are on the higher carb side, and I add berries.

And yet, they are a meal that keeps me UN hungry from mid-afternoon to bedtime. Which is my own gold standard. If something leaves me feeling snacky, that's not a good meal.
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  #54   ^
Old Mon, Aug-24-20, 18:01
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,446
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/232/200 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 42%
Location: Massachusetts
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JEY..... in one of the graphs he discusses, low fat yogurt is high in all aspects and is located far too near Mars Bar, jelly beans and glucose. Shocking.
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  #55   ^
Old Tue, Aug-25-20, 03:26
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,828
 
Plan: P:E/DDF/LC-DrWestman
Stats: 225/156/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/29%/25%
Progress: 123%
Location: NC
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Sadly, yes. He also has a booklet on the insulin Index of many foods, and skim milk yogurt is 85% insulinogenic ..one of the highest listed. So although the PE diet might suggest whey, yogurt and cottage cheese as good...probably only for the bodybuilders ...Which I am not Following Diedra, after I finish this yogurt in fridge and buy some almond milk for coffee, Iíll be dairy-free and interested if it has a benefit for my joints too. Lechtins in Peanuts have bothered me before, so PB is already gone.

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, Aug-25-20 at 03:32.
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  #56   ^
Old Tue, Aug-25-20, 07:19
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,341
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Iíll be dairy-free and interested if it has a benefit for my joints too. Lectins in Peanuts have bothered me before, so PB is already gone.


I would never have realized all the things my body doesn't like until I was away from them for a long enough time. In my "adding back in" phase, ONE cashew led to 24 hours of nausea. Now, I have to avoid lectins, though coffee is a bean But a trial of eliminating sunflower seeds and almonds resulted in less arthritis in my hands. Who knew?!?!?

Which is why I'm confident about my own dairy consumption. A mis-diagnosis led to me avoiding dairy for years. When I started Atkins, I added in cheese, and it was fine.

But I also don't drink milk of any kind. Sour cream in my whey smoothies instead of yogurt. More and more, I get the pricier, pasture-raised, cheeses and less of them satisfy me.

Lately, it's so much easier to tell people what I can eat than what I can't
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  #57   ^
Old Tue, Aug-25-20, 09:06
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,446
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/232/200 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 42%
Location: Massachusetts
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JEY. Where is full fat yogurt plain not greek and where is s hard cheese like cheddar? Just curious as we dont eat low fat yogurt but its a great starter for homemade yogurt.
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  #58   ^
Old Tue, Aug-25-20, 12:31
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,828
 
Plan: P:E/DDF/LC-DrWestman
Stats: 225/156/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/29%/25%
Progress: 123%
Location: NC
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Full fat yogurt is 46% insulinogenic and cheddar 19% Glucogenic...all the dairy covers a wide spectrum.
The Insulin Index Book is free: https://optimisingnutrition.com/ explains the values he has used for ranking.
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  #59   ^
Old Tue, Sep-01-20, 08:36
Blue Ruby Blue Ruby is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 648
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 200/170/160 Female 5'7"
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: BC
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Ive never visited Kendallís site, and sometimes I find discussions around the biochemistry of ketosis, glucogenesis etc to be overwhelming. Iíve been doing as Teaser mentionedóread my book, stick to my plan, focus on the carbs ... and itís gotten me close to where I want to go. (But...Iím still barely in the over weight category, still some brain fog/concentration even if so much better, still some issues with energy, wondering if I should go back to trying for ketosis...blah blah blah)

The focus on nutrition you all describe is interesting...I went to the site...Iím impressed by the clarity the site brings to some (to me!) confusing or at least topics.

Iím not sure if the basic quizz (and update function that allows it to gather more data) is too simple ... ?

But it sure seems like a good starting point to me and Iíll explore the site more.

Thanks all of you whoíve highlighted useful links/pages!
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  #60   ^
Old Tue, Sep-01-20, 09:13
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,828
 
Plan: P:E/DDF/LC-DrWestman
Stats: 225/156/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/29%/25%
Progress: 123%
Location: NC
Default

If you are thinking of trying fasting, and do not mind taking lots of glucose tests, this Approach to finding a personalized fasting routine is sensible and successful for me. I started with Dr Fung's protocols back in 2014, but long-term they havenít worked. I really like Marty's analysis and simple summary of insulin and excess body fat in the process. There are FAQs in the manual I have read many times, or you can just trust the process. The net carbs from all the nutrient dense vegetables should not be lower than 15%, and protein high, which makes the food part of this similar to the 2010 Atkins book. Where I started
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