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  #31   ^
Old Sat, Jun-09-18, 23:18
M Levac M Levac is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 6,453
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Whoops. I must have said that with too straight a face.

The one kind of "gut lining munching" bacteria I know anything about seems to actually be good for the gut lining. A few years ago a post on the Free the Animal blog called something like Attention low carbers; your gut bugs aren't that into you or some such looked at some low carber's gut bacteria population. Akkermansia Mucophilia was increased, they like the protective mucin coating in mammals guts. So the article was about how we're all likely to get leaky gut. So I looked up this gut bug, the studies in mice all showed a protective effect--they do ferment mucin, but they also signal the goblet cells that produce mucin to produce more--the gut actually ends up better protected. In mice, the connection between leaky gut, fatty liver and insulin resistance is fairly robust, these Akkermansia protect against this.

I'd like to offer a slightly different point of view about what the gut lining is. Or rather, what we think it is.

Consider the skin, it's a few layers of living cells, including the outermost layer exposed to air. Skin is not so different from gut lining in the way that it protects what's underneath. The gut too is composed of a few layers of living cells, with a layer (innermost, since it faces inward rather than outward) exposed to food and stuff. The skin secretes stuff which then forms a very thin layer of non-living stuff. The gut then would also secrete a similar layer of non-living stuff. But bear in mind, this layer would be extremely thin, both for the skin and for the gut. So thin in fact, we can't see it with our eyes. For the skin, we could call this the skin lining, if we call that layer of non-living stuff that lines the gut, the gut lining.

If the above is true, how much matter is there for gut bugs to use for their purpose? Very little, methinks. Just like there's very little matter for skin bugs to use for their purpose. Bear in mind, that layer of non-living stuff, its primary function is to protect what's underneath, not to feed what's on top of it. So, there's little stuff, and what little stuff there is, isn't intended to benefit the bugs.

If that's also true, the alternative point of view here is that gut bugs actually construct their own layer of stuff on top of whatever is already lining the gut. For their own purpose. To protect themselves.

Finally, gut bugs don't belong in the small intestine (nor in the upper digestive tract), they cause mucho trouble there. The colon is their place. This means if the bugs thrive on our lining or theirs, if it's not in the colon, it's no bueno guaranteed.
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  #32   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-18, 05:50
SilverEm SilverEm is offline
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Posts: 1,024
 
Plan: VLC Pastoral
Stats: 137/136/136 Female 67"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Maintenance since 2001
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I don't know if this site on Kefir will be of help, but I found it via David Fankhauser's Cheese Making site. The site has lots and lots of information on Kefir:

"Dom's about Kefir Grains and Kefir"

http://users.sa.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefirpage.html

Last edited by SilverEm : Sun, Jun-10-18 at 05:58.
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  #33   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-18, 15:19
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Posts: 9,436
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Your gut bugs have clearly gone rogue and are busy digesting your gut lining.


teaser, You may have been right....

Quote:
Too little fibre, on the other hand, can starve them, and when they’re starved of fibre they eat us: they gnaw away at the mucin (protective proteins) in the mucus lining in the large intestine.


http://www.high50.com/health/microb...lth-and-disease
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  #34   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-18, 17:18
mike_d's Avatar
mike_d mike_d is offline
Grease is the word!
Posts: 8,364
 
Plan: PSMF/IF
Stats: 236/181/180 Male 72 inches
BF:disappearing!
Progress: 98%
Location: Alamo city, Texas
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No problems with my Texas kefir, still use some almost daily. No allergies, although some people have sinus problems with dairy. I also started taking "bitters" a German thing to help digestion that tastes of licorice? And also brush teeth with dental healing essential oils. Last dental visit the hygienist remarked "no stains, tarter or bleeding anymore. What happened?"

I think real homemade kefir crowds out the harmful bacteria usually found in the mouth that causes disease and bad breath, coated tongue etc. It's a natural antibiotic. People with Candida or SIBO might have issues with taking some kefir at 1st?

Also good to quench the 'burn' instead of cheese or milk if you get hold of a pepper you thought was not that HOT LOL

Kefir "grains" as an symbiotic colony can't be compromised normally, except maybe by molds if not stored correctly. Live grains can be stored in well water for over a month.
It's like the SF sourdough culture. I've kept a culture pure for years and only use it sometimes to make waffles. It always works the same.

Note: flavor and thickness of kefir can vary depending on the temperature of fermentation and the milk used like "Promised Land" Jersey Cows whole milk. This is explained in the FAQ

Last edited by mike_d : Sun, Jun-10-18 at 18:46.
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  #35   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-18, 21:42
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Posts: 9,436
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
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I know what Candida is but what is SIBO?

You know, I made it for quite a while in fact it just kept making more and more. Maybe I drank too much. I was having a cup per day. It did have a fermented smell to me. I was very careful to keep it as sterile as possible. I used small glass canning jars and when I quit many weeks later I must have had 10+ jars of it waiting in the refrigerator.
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  #36   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-18, 22:54
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 13,104
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
teaser, You may have been right....



http://www.high50.com/health/microb...lth-and-disease


But on what basis is the author claiming this? Studies where mucin eating bacteria caused damage? Or where, since they eat the mucin barrier, it's assumed, like in that free the animal blog, that they're doing damage? I find it hard to believe that the diet that gives me less aches and pains, lower blood pressure, seems to have stopped my hearing voices etc. is beating the crud out of my gut.
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  #37   ^
Old Mon, Jun-11-18, 04:14
SilverEm SilverEm is offline
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Posts: 1,024
 
Plan: VLC Pastoral
Stats: 137/136/136 Female 67"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Maintenance since 2001
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A very quick trip to PubMed revealed the following:

A dietary fiber-deprived gut microbiota degrades the colonic mucus barrier and enhances pathogen susceptibility

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5131798/

The lack of an exact list of the content of the feed, and the duration of the study, and the lack of attention to confounding variables....

-------


Teaser, I thought of the young man at Crohn's Carnivore who healed himself by doing what you are doing:

https://crohnscarnivore.blogspot.co...ml#comment-form

---------

Peter Dobromylskyj has posted about the differences between the fiber/BHB and the no-fiber plus butter/BHB.
A site search from Duck, Duck, Go brings up many of his posts. Search term: betahydroxybutyrate

Peter's blog, Hyperlipid, is http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com.

He has also written several posts on fiber.

Last edited by SilverEm : Mon, Jun-11-18 at 04:33.
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  #38   ^
Old Mon, Jun-11-18, 06:02
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 13,104
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Thanks SilverEm. Germ-free mice innoculated (infected?) with a special blend of mucin-munching gut bugs is something I hope isn't a good model for what's going on in teaser.

I lean towards fermentable fibers like inulin not being a bad idea on a low carb or ketogenic diet, it seems like a fairly obvious study for someone to do. Free the Animal posted some anecdotes with low carbers getting improved glucose tolerance when eating raw potato starch, Tom Naughton of FatHead did an experiment where he ate raw potato starch and responded better to a carbohydrate meal two hours later. Problem with that is raw potato starch is between a quarter to a third digestible, and slowly digestible at that, there are studies showing that taking in glucose slowly for a couple of hours will improve glucose tolerance at the next meal, basically a second meal effect hack that doesn't have to have anything to do with gut bugs or short chain fatty acids.

Benefiber has an inulin supplement. I tried it once but stopped but stopped because I was enjoying it a bit too much with heavy cream and sugar free koolaid.
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  #39   ^
Old Mon, Jun-11-18, 07:27
SilverEm SilverEm is offline
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Posts: 1,024
 
Plan: VLC Pastoral
Stats: 137/136/136 Female 67"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Maintenance since 2001
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Hi, Teaser.

I don't do well with any of the FODMAPs, so no inulin for me.

Here's one of Peter's posts that might be of use:

https://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot...and-cancer.html

As always, Peter's comments after the blog post are as enlightening as his posts.

Here is his comment that gave me peace about not eating fiber:

Just had a read of your links. In the first link what struck me was that RS at low doses increased fat oxidation (15g/d RS) but at 30g/d it completely obtunded fat oxidation to the equivalent of zero g/d. Why? The SCFA made by gut bacteria belong to the gut bacteria. They're not ours. The microbiota will allow us a little of their butyrate but the bulk is sent directly to our liver and converted to tryglycerides. These are then stored as fat by activation of lipoprotein lipase. The whole cascade is controlled by Fiaf (Fasting induced adipose factor), which is to a significant extent controlled by the gut bacteria. Feed the bacteria and they make fat (butyrate), but they FORCE you store it. Now I like butyrate, it's a fat after all, it will induce fat oxidation, and I LOVE fat oxidation. I'll eat butter 'til I'm not hungry (I was going to say 'til the cows come home but...). Of course butyrate from butter feeds me directly, not via my bacteria, and via my small intestine not my colon. No gas! No Fiaf suppression either. I put it up in detail, first post is here , just check those with Fiaf at the start of the title.

Last edited by SilverEm : Mon, Jun-11-18 at 07:36.
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  #40   ^
Old Mon, Jun-11-18, 07:41
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 13,104
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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That's just the thing, there's so much of this stuff looking at specific breeds of mice, particular diets. Even just the fact that various fiber supplements will be pelleted along with other ingredients into chow, the mono-chow, all hard little pellet diet is a little weird.

I've seen two studies where cellulose has been deadly to mice. One study used cellulose as the fiber for ketogenic mice, they had to replace the cellulose with another fiber source six months in because the mice were dying prematurely. Another looked at 25 different macro-ratios and also nutrient density for longevity, they manipulated nutrient density by adding various levels of cellulose, seven out of eight of the shortest-lived groups were on the lowest density, highest cellulose diets. Do I think celery is deadly? Saying that based on this data would be silly, it's an artifact of having a diet of hard little pellets. They sort of ignored the deadly effect of cellulose in the conclusions and concentrated on the idea that having a higher carbohydrate to protein ratio somehow prolonged life, although that was a much weaker effect than the apparent deadliness of cellulose.
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  #41   ^
Old Mon, Jun-11-18, 08:00
SilverEm SilverEm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,024
 
Plan: VLC Pastoral
Stats: 137/136/136 Female 67"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Maintenance since 2001
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Teaser, yes, and what is the source of the cellulose? By what process is the cellulose obtained? What chemicals?

I agree about the pellet feed. This is a confounding variable in their deciding a mouse diet will determine something about people.

I often call supplement companies to ask the source of the cellulose in the supplements. Tapioca and palm fiber in the better ones. But, no one can tell me how it is obtained.

I think using mice to decide what will happen in humans is not the best idea.
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  #42   ^
Old Mon, Jun-11-18, 09:40
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
 
Plan: Atkins & IF
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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I've got Dr. Michael Ruscio's book coming: Healthy Gut, Healthy You: The Personalized Plan to Transform Your Health from the Inside Out (2018).

In the below video, he talks of recovered microbiatas from the paleolithic era - after 12 minutes.

referenced paper:

Phylotyping and Functional Analysis of Two Ancient Human Microbiomes

We examine two paleofecal samples originating from cave deposits in Durango Mexico and dating to approximately 1300 years ago.

The Gut; Diet, Flora, Health and Disease — Michael Ruscio, D.C., B.S. (AHS14)
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  #43   ^
Old Mon, Jun-11-18, 12:41
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
 
Plan: Atkins & IF
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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  #44   ^
Old Mon, Jun-11-18, 17:25
Emmie618 Emmie618 is offline
New Member
Posts: 11
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 340/144/145 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress:
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Personally, I don't think enough is KNOWN about the human gut to adapt my WOE in any way. I know for a fact that I feel less well eating fiber, and with more fiber in my diet, I become constipated (my gastro confirms this is true of many people). So I prefer to eat in a way that keeps me healthy and feeling well.
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  #45   ^
Old Mon, Jun-11-18, 20:58
mike_d's Avatar
mike_d mike_d is offline
Grease is the word!
Posts: 8,364
 
Plan: PSMF/IF
Stats: 236/181/180 Male 72 inches
BF:disappearing!
Progress: 98%
Location: Alamo city, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
I know what Candida is but what is SIBO?

You know, I made it for quite a while in fact it just kept making more and more. Maybe I drank too much. I was having a cup per day. It did have a fermented smell to me. I was very careful to keep it as sterile as possible. I used small glass canning jars and when I quit many weeks later I must have had 10+ jars of it waiting in the refrigerator.
SIBO is small intestine bacterial overgrowth, a bad thing. The excess bacteria will feed off of the undigested food in your small intestine. In particular, they love to feed on sugar, simple and complex carbohydrates, starches, and alcohol. As the bacteria feeds, it causes the carbohydrates to ferment, which produces hydrogen as a byproduct. Hydrogen can in turn feed single-celled organisms in your small intestine called archaea, which then produce methane as a byproduct. So when you have SIBO you have excess levels or hydrogen, methane, or both in your digestive system. Like a cow. You can wake up with a flat belly and by the end of the day you may look six months pregnant!
one clue that you may have SIBO is that when you take a probiotic containing lactobacillus or bifidobacterium you have an exacerbation of your symptoms such as more gas, bloating, constipation, histamine intolerance (hives/itching), diarrhea or other digestive symptoms.

I just ferment whatever kefir I can use up in a few days, I then store the grains in milk or spring water until a new batch is needed. Cold slows the fermentation process way down, but it does not stop it -- so storing finished kefir for weeks is not advised. It won't spoil, but can get quite strong tasting, separate out and get more curd like cottage cheese. Jars just need to be clean, but not sterile.

Last edited by mike_d : Mon, Jun-11-18 at 21:31.
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