Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > LC Research/Media
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Fri, Jan-15-16, 12:24
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 9,421
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default The Gut Microbiota

http://drruscio.com/gut-microbiota-...ure-episode-46/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
The Gut Microbiota – Clinical Pearls Vs Marketing Ploys and Regaining Your Ancestral Gut Lecture- Episode 46

Dr. Ruscio presented on The Gut; Diet, Flora, Health and Disease at the Ancestral Health Society’s 2014 symposium at UC Berkeley. He reviewed the impact hygiene has on our health, hunter-gatherer versus Westernized microbiotas, and what the science actually says about manipulating our microbiotas with probiotics, prebiotics and fiber.

http://drruscio.com/gut-microbiota-...ure-episode-46/
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Fri, Jan-15-16, 13:57
Little Me's Avatar
Little Me Little Me is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 825
 
Plan: IF, JERF
Stats: 208/178/168 Female 5'3
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: The OC
Default

I tried not cleaning my house in a very long time but I didn't get any healthier. I need to get a dog to help keep the floor free of crumbs.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Mon, Apr-09-18, 23:30
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 9,421
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default

For anyone interested in Gut bacteria this is an interesting study.

Glad somebody read it, Rian!
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Sun, Apr-15-18, 16:17
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,089
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 242.5/213/207 Female 66
BF:High wt, 276, 255
Progress: 83%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
Default

Interesting. His comments and advice on lc and good bacteria sounds like what Dr. William Davis (Wheat Belly, Undoctored) recommends.

Quote:
So, how about weight loss? Well, starting with low-carb autoimmune paleo diet is a really good starting point. Then, slowly add carbs back into tolerable levels because, remember, if you’re very low-carb for too long – if you are consistently under, maybe, 100 grams, that can cause a loss of healthy bacterial populations, and it can cause a decrease in some of the protective short chain fatty acids. So, you don’t want be any more low-carb than you necessarily have to be.

Can I manipulate the microbiota for weight loss? Well, let’s look at that. The microbiotial manipulations in obesity. We already know the antibiotics used early in life is a risk factor for obesity. And diverse early exposure may be protective. Why is that? Because, if you don’t have diverse early colonization, you don’t make that immune system training, and that makes your immune system more prone to inflammation, and the inflammation can cause things like insulin resistance and impaired metabolism....

Negative changes to the microbiota from very low-carb diets can be offset by supplementation with fiber, prebiotics, and resistant starch. They have done studies where they put obese patients on low-carbohydrate diets, but they’ve given them various prebiotics or resistant starch, and they’ve seen the bacterial populations that normally die flourish. So, there are some great implications for if you’re someone that really can’t tolerate carbohydrate, and you have to stay on a long term low-carbohydrate diet, prebiotics and resistant starch may help prevent the loss of short chain fatty acids and other helpful bacteria.

How about fiber? The worst studies regarding fiber show no weight loss; the best results have been with fiber’s glucomannan. There were 8.3-more pounds lost than the control group. So, two groups, both on a low-calorie diet – one went on a low-calorie diet with glucomannan fiber. That group lost 8.3 pounds more than the control group. So, not bad. Other reviews have shown fiber’s average weight loss – again, reviews pool many, many studies – weight loss would be about 4.2 pounds. So, the average loss, maybe about 4.2 (pounds), glucomannan may get you to 8.3 (pounds), and viscous fibers may be better than non-viscous. A viscous fiber is one that when you mix it with water, (it) forms this kind of thick gel. A non-viscous one is very, very liquid still.

Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Sun, Apr-15-18, 17:36
Emmie618 Emmie618 is offline
New Member
Posts: 11
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 340/144/145 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress:
Default

I'm not sure I buy any of this. It may be theoretically interesting, but all I know is myself--and I've been eating very low carb for more than a decade--and never felt better.

One example of how everyone's 'gut' isn't the same. For years I suffered from chronic constipation, but my problem was that I followed conventional wisdom and kept adding fiber. Finally, I mentioned to my gastro that fiber seemed to make things worse, and that I actually functioned better with little fiber. He said that's true of many people--including himself.

So I ignore what the 'experts' may think of my 'gut' as long as I'm thriving on my own WOE.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Sun, Apr-15-18, 21:07
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,452
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

There's the idea that we and gut bugs form a symbiosis where both extract a mutual benefit. However, all gut bugs are opportunistic and will make us sick, if not outright kill us, rather than help us fight whatever opportunity allows them to do so.

As an example, take the idea of "good" gut bugs helping our immune system deal with "bad" gut bugs. The mechanism here is a continuous immune challenge from the toxic substances - cellular proteins and stuff - they release into our gut as they die off on regular basis. From this, our immune system learns to fight off those bad gut bugs better than otherwise. The problem here is that if our immune system goes down for some reason, those good gut bugs suddenly take full opportunity and begin to make us sick - they become just as bad as the other bad gut bugs. If there was genuine symbiosis, the good gut bugs would instead compensate for the immune deficiency. There is no such thing as good or bad gut bugs, they're just bugs, we're just the host, and we fight all of them continuously.

Another idea of symbiosis comes from other species that are host to way more gut bugs than we are to do something genuinely useful like digest plant matter for example. Doesn't work for humans. The organs needed for this symbiosis don't exist in humans. In species with a large cecum, we have a tiny appendix instead. In species with multiple stomachs like ruminants that also use gut bugs for part of the digestion of grasses, we have just the one stomach that uses no gut bugs for digestion in there and instead it uses peptides and bile to digest mostly animal protein and fat. Those peptides could probably break down plant protein too, but then plant protein is enclosed in plant fiber, which we can't break down in the stomach so that's a moot point. Indeed, if certain gut bugs like candida albican or H. pylori "infect" us, i.e. proliferate to a point where their presence becomes genuinely detrimental to us, they interfere with digestion rather than enhance it.

The bulk of our gut bugs are active in the colon. The idea here is that the primary function of those gut bugs is to break down waste to recover the water. Sounds good, but we can drink water directly so it's not much of a benefit. Indeed, removal of the colon in case of colon cancer doesn't seem to be that bad when it comes to water status. It's important to note that when we say waste, we mean the stuff that could not be digested by those peptides and bile, so fiber and stuff like that.

Now there's another idea that just contradicts pretty much every other idea about gut bugs. It's called the Expensive Tissue Hypothesis, that says our gut grew smaller as our brain grew larger. The only way for this to happen is to, on the one hand, increase energy density and nutrient density of the diet, and on the other hand, simplify and make highly efficient the digestion of that diet. What this means in terms of diet we're most well adapted to eat is primarily animal flesh but especially animal fat. All other ideas about fiber, resistant starch and whatnots, is merely arguing in favor of marginal, and probably imagined, benefits. We don't thrive on margins.

I skimmed the article but I get the impression it argues in favor of feeding the gut bugs with probiotics and stuf, again with this idea of symbiosis. I got a better idea. Kill'em all, good and bad, then just eat whatever diet is best for us. The bugs will return, but now we've established a clean slate where only those that are adapted to our prefered diet will make a home for themselves. In the interim, it's unlikely that we suffer much from that, except probably when we kill'am all cuz, ya know, those toxic cellular proteins and stuf that they release as they die en masse.

Another point is flora divesity, where more diversity is better and less diversity is worse. This sounds almost like that "moderation" argument. It's just as much BS. It was observed in the Bellevue all-meat trial that certain species disappeared while other species increased in number, effectively decreasing diversity, yet it was also observed that the all-meat diet produced no adverse effect and the subjects even reported a few improvements instead.

Finally, there is no lower limit to carbs, we can eat exactly none and suffer exactly no detrimental effect.

It sounds like I'm arguing off-topic in favor of eating mostly or only meat and avoiding most or all carbs, but in fact I'm illustrating the rather baseless arguments for "good" gut bugs.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Sun, Apr-15-18, 23:27
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 9,421
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default

Last year when I decided to try making and drinking Kefir I didn't have a great outcome. After 2-3 weeks I had an allergic type of reaction where my entire head began itching uncontrollably so I stopped. I looked all over the internet to find info and didn't find much except those articles promoting it. Then I began having questions about what these Kefir grains really contained. I read all of the history about it but maybe it was not compatible with my genetics, IDK. Some say to have it every day but I wonder if there is a saturation point when it becomes an overgrowth?

In France they have been culturing Yoghurt much longer than here in the US and on one trip there I remember my mother telling me not to eat it one morning at breakfast. She would say you have no idea what's in it. Although being hard headed I had to have some out of this large bowl of what looked homemade but I always remember her saying not to eat it.
She was usually right! LOL
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Mon, Apr-16-18, 07:13
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,089
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 242.5/213/207 Female 66
BF:High wt, 276, 255
Progress: 83%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
Default

Experience is the teacher for me. I had seasonal allergies until I started taking probiotics. Then I got interested in making kefir as an alternative to that expense, especially as I find it easier to make than yogurt. We have home grown raspberries and they go great blended in kefir. Yogurt is associated with longevity historically in various cultures, so I don't think there is much argument that it's not good for you.

I don't think we know enough about the microbiome yet to know what's going on with things like itching following fermented foods, which I've also experienced. Is it the dose, the accompanying prebiotic fiber or lack thereof in the diet, or something else?

I'm convinced that it is important, as is fiber, which can't be lumped into just one category as there's a big difference between soluble and insoluble. Adding "roughage" type fiber, without extra water especially, is a prescription for constipation. Whereas soluble fiber may aid weight loss: https://www.healthline.com/nutritio...you-lose-weight I went on Brenda Watson's high fiber diet back in the day and it worked so well, I became interested. I also lost a large amount weight eating a high whole grain diet back in the day (that wasn't especially low fat).

And considering the ancestral diets we may have evolved on, it makes sense to me that ancient cultures would have eaten anything edible and nourishing, which in terms of plants and insects would have included plenty of fiber. http://theplate.nationalgeographic....-in-paleo-diet/
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Mon, Apr-16-18, 15:42
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,561
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
Default

There is so much variation.

I get along fine with kombucha and low fiber. Someone else may not. That is what is missing from these studies. A sense of how optimum diets can vary by person.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Mon, Apr-16-18, 16:33
SilverEm SilverEm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,024
 
Plan: VLC Pastoral
Stats: 137/136/136 Female 67"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Maintenance since 2001
Default

Very interesting thread subject. Thanks very much!

Barry Groves posted the following, a few years ago, at his site, Second Opinions, in the section on "the best detox diet".

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/detox.html

Here are some excerpts:

Introduction
The digestive systems of carnivorous and herbivorous animals operate in quite different ways: the former is specifically designed to digest animal proteins and fats, while the latter is constructed to process plant materials.

Whereas the bacterial fermentation of plant starches and fibre, with the production and absorption of short-chain fatty acids, contributes between 60% and 90% of all the energy requirements in plant-eating animals, the colonic fermentation in humans is of minor importance for nutrition, with less than 10% of the energy requirements available from colonic digestion of starch, fibre and protein not absorbed in the small bowel, if the intestine has a normal length and function.

When plant materials enter our digestive system, the cellulose of which plant cell walls are made, which constitute a large proportion of the plant and which we cannot digest, passes through the stomach and small intestine to end up in the colon (large intestine) in an undigested state. Other carbohydrates, even though they have been processed to some extent, will also end up in the colon.

What happens to them is of considerable importance.

...A pure carnivore should eat no plant material, so there should not be any carbohydrate in its colon to support fermentative bacteria. With no fermentative bacteria to produce acids, the proteolytic bacteria thrive there in a healthy alkaline environment.

...

There is only one way to set the balance right again and that is to eat little that will allow undigested carbohydrate material to reach the colon. This is possible. Synthetic diets composed of pure amino acids, fatty acids and glucose, which need no digestion and leave no residue, will halt the production of acid in the colon and restore the correct balance.[3] But trials on volunteers showed that it takes about three months of very strict dieting to achieve this result, and it had to be conducted in a hospital background.

A more realistic way is to reduce the amount of carbohydrate in your diet to a minimum. And avoid at all costs such material as bran or other vegetable and fruit fibre which cannot be digested, as this will certainly end up feeding the very bacteria you are trying to get rid of.


I don't know how much copyright law allows, hence, just these excerpts.

This is one of my favorite articles at his site. This article is also in his book, Trick and Treat.

For me, avoiding high FODMAPs, nightshades, and foods which cause allergic symptoms is part of the foundation of my food plan.
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Mon, Apr-16-18, 22:40
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 9,421
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default

Very interesting article.
Thanks Auntie Em
Here is something that really got my attention

Quote:
Even a small amount of carbohydrate in the colon will support a colony of fermentative bacteria; if there is a large amount of the more indigestible carbohydrates such as bran and raw vegetation from salads, the fermentative bacteria will thrive until they can be overwhelming. As the production of acid in the colon soars, the resultant environment becomes hospitable to yeasts, moulds and other fungi. These too are avid fermenters and, as their numbers also increase, the colonic environment becomes more and more acid. But this environment does not suit the beneficial proteolytic bacteria which should be there, so they die off leaving the harmful fermenting bacteria unopposed. This leaves the colon both irritated and irritable

Last edited by Meme#1 : Mon, Apr-16-18 at 22:48.
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Tue, Apr-17-18, 03:26
SilverEm SilverEm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,024
 
Plan: VLC Pastoral
Stats: 137/136/136 Female 67"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Maintenance since 2001
Default

Meme, yes, that got my attention, too.

Caring for those proteolytic bacteria is why I avoid FODMAPs, and all those "trendy" prebiotics, such as inulin.

Last edited by SilverEm : Tue, Apr-17-18 at 03:41.
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Tue, Apr-17-18, 11:28
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 9,421
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default

Looking it up I see that every FODMAP list is different depending on who is publishing it.
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Tue, Apr-17-18, 13:43
SilverEm SilverEm is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,024
 
Plan: VLC Pastoral
Stats: 137/136/136 Female 67"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Maintenance since 2001
Default

Hi, Meme.

I just did a quick search at PubMed, using "FODMAPs, Gibson" as search terms, and got several good papers as results.

Peter Gibson's papers are the ones I use as a standard.
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Tue, Apr-17-18, 14:42
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 9,421
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default

Thanks EM!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:22.


Copyright © 2000-2018 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.