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  #16   ^
Old Fri, May-15-15, 13:04
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,453
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rightnow
I was reading a ref about the liver making ketones the other day, and considered that anybody with serious liver issues -- which people my size almost certainly have, regardless that this is not where medicine begins (oddly, I think it should) -- may have what I "intuitively suspected" was my issue -- that after some time doing wonderfully, my liver simply could not provide the ketone output that my body required any further. Hence the need for carbs, and literally hallucinations of batteries and gauges on empty and the feeling I would DIE if I didn't consume some kind of energy to support my organs immediately.

PJ

If I may play devil's advocate on that hypothesis. The mechanism that allows the liver to produce sufficient ketones is low(er) insulin. Therefore it must be the same mechanism that somehow stops working, i.e. high(er) insulin. All things being equal (same diet throughout especially), using my paradigm, I can deduce that somehow there's a condition that prevents the liver from working as it should and this condition likely shuts down insulin receptors at the liver, and this condition manifests at some point and stays. This condition would also be accompanied by higher BG, not much but measurable (something like 100mg/dl vs 80mg/dl); failure to lose fat or even fat gain; other things related to energy status like fatigue and such; hunger/cravings. Basically this condition would mimic all the symptoms of a high-carb diet, but without the carbs, since it would disrupt the same thing a high-carb diet disrupts: liver insulin receptors primarily.

Bear in mind that's just how I see it, not necessarily how it actually works.

To stay on topic, at the risk of harping on with my idea of as-of-yet unknown medical condition, if it's possible a condition mimics all the symptoms of a high-carb diet, then it's even more true that reversing type 2 diabetes starts with ignoring the guidelines. Because then, once we've addressed diet and find the disease does not improve, we've discovered the existence of a genuine medical condition which we must address with something other than diet alone. Sarah's talk didn't go that far likely because she's working from the premise of the old flawed paradigm.
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  #17   ^
Old Fri, May-15-15, 17:06
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Posts: 19,579
 
Plan: ~VLC/~dirty primal
Stats: 520/361/350 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 94%
Location: Ozarks USA
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Yeah, I cannot say I know what happened or why. I can only say what I intuitively felt was going on at the time. My energy was also getting bizarre -- I felt ok but if I tried to lift weights, I would get those visuals again and if I pushed 'through' it (I'm kinda type-A) my body would burst out bawling. My body, not me. It was clear there was something wrong but I didn't know what.

Then eventually my energy tanked and literally I would sit down coming in the house and couldn't get the energy to get up and take off my coat. For hours. I couldn't get the energy to walk across the hall to pee until I was nearly losing it. Since I had previously had MASSIVE energy, lost tons of weight fast, was hyper and excited about it all, it was a pretty big... disappointment. To understate it... by light years.

But I don't for a moment blame keto (I was VLC much of that). I think LC and VLC saved my life. I've had some meditative stuff (my subconscious is pretty good at communication) one that showed me my liver, which later I looked up on wiki to see looked like I nearly had cirrhosis or something, if the picture I saw in my head was real. So I just think that I had health issues and that's it, like you said -- the diet helped and then it became clear that "something else" -- an actual medical situation -- was going on. LC at least gave me the opportunity to see that -- and to live long enough to see that!

PJ
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  #18   ^
Old Sat, May-16-15, 05:08
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,609
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Rules for Healthy Eating from her FB page. In her TedTalk, she substituted "Eat when you are Hungry. Don't Eat when you are Not" for the Don't Drink your Calories, but both are good.


Last edited by JEY100 : Sat, May-16-15 at 08:44.
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  #19   ^
Old Sat, May-16-15, 07:27
bkloots's Avatar
bkloots bkloots is offline
Posts: 9,142
 
Plan: Atkins/LCHF
Stats: 195/162/150 Female 63in
BF:
Progress: 73%
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Great list, Janet. Thanks for posting it here. As for Point 3:

Yesterday I was visiting with a friend who is trying her best with LC. She's in her mid-70s so results are very, very slow. She said, "Truth be told, I'd be happier not eating meat." So I said, "Why don't you do that? You can design a healthy plan around your food preference." I really do believe that. Unfortunately, she's persuaded that LC, including meat protein and fat, are the key to success--success she's apparently not having. Now my dilemma: Having convinced her that LC/Atkins is a great way to live, I can't talk her out of it.

Those are very good rules. Simple, helpful, effective for most people.
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  #20   ^
Old Sat, May-16-15, 07:45
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,609
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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First step might be drop red meat in favor of chicken and fish, or more pescatarian, just fish and other seafood. Canned salmon and frozen shrimp are both quick and easy. I don't touch any soy of any kind, but eggs, cheese and nuts work for protein, as does Whey Protein drinks (quality whey powder in full-fat coconut milk). The NANY book has vegetarian options scattered through the entire program.

Like her 18 minute talk, these rules are a good summary. I tell people dont eat Grains, Sugar or Processed seed oils, but that last one confuses. What?, no canola? Potatoes is easier to grasp.
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  #21   ^
Old Sun, May-17-15, 07:53
sergeidave sergeidave is offline
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Posts: 8
 
Plan: least carbs the better
Stats: 202/175/165 Male 5 feet 10 inches
BF:
Progress:
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Awesome TED Talk, thanks!
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  #22   ^
Old Sun, May-17-15, 16:03
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,569
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rightnow
So I just think that I had health issues and that's it, like you said -- the diet helped and then it became clear that "something else" -- an actual medical situation -- was going on. LC at least gave me the opportunity to see that -- and to live long enough to see that!

PJ


Low carb does give us a leg up on the situation, I agree. I knew several women my age who took different routes on the same problems I had. Now, more than ten years later, I am healthier than they are. Even with my current difficulties!
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  #23   ^
Old Mon, May-18-15, 06:21
64dodger 64dodger is offline
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Posts: 309
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 251/218.2/200 Male 76 inches
BF:
Progress: 64%
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Sweden has become the first Western nation to develop national dietary guidelines that reject the popular low-fat diet dogma in favor of low-carb high-fat nutrition advice

Brian Shilhavy
Health Impact News Editor

Sweden has become the first Western nation to develop national dietary guidelines that reject the popular low-fat diet dogma in favor of low-carb high-fat nutrition advice.

The switch in dietary advice followed the publication of a two-year study by the independent Swedish Council on Health Technology Assessment. The committee reviewed 16,000 studies published through May 31, 2013.

Swedish doctor, Andreas Eenfeldt, who runs the most popular health blog in Scandinavia (DietDoctor.com) published some of the highlights of this study in English:

Health markers will improve on a low-carbohydrate diet:

…a greater increase in HDL cholesterol (“the good cholesterol”) without having any adverse affects on LDL cholesterol (“the bad cholesterol”). This applies to both the moderate low-carbohydrate intake of less than 40 percent of the total energy intake, as well as to the stricter low-carbohydrate diet, where carbohydrate intake is less than 20 percent of the total energy intake. In addition, the stricter low-carbohydrate diet will lead to improved glucose levels for individuals with obesity and diabetes, and to marginally decreased levels of triglycerides.” (Source.)

Dr. Eenfeldt also translated an article from a local Swedish newspaper covering the committee’s findings:

Butter, olive oil, heavy cream, and bacon are not harmful foods. Quite the opposite. Fat is the best thing for those who want to lose weight. And there are no connections between a high fat intake and cardiovascular disease.

On Monday, SBU, the Swedish Council on Health Technology Assessment, dropped a bombshell. After a two-year long inquiry, reviewing 16,000 studies, the report “Dietary Treatment for Obesity” upends the conventional dietary guidelines for obese or diabetic people.

For a long time, the health care system has given the public advice to avoid fat, saturated fat in particular, and calories. A low-carb diet (LCHF – Low Carb High Fat, is actually a Swedish “invention”) has been dismissed as harmful, a humbug and as being a fad diet lacking any scientific basis.

Instead, the health care system has urged diabetics to eat a lot of fruit (=sugar) and low-fat products with considerable amounts of sugar or artificial sweeteners, the latter a dangerous trigger for the sugar-addicted person.

This report turns the current concepts upside down and advocates a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet, as the most effective weapon against obesity.

The expert committee consisted of ten physicians, and several of them were skeptics to low-carbohydrate diets at the beginning of the investigation. (Source.)

One of the committee members was Prof. Fredrik Nyström, from Linköping, Sweden – a long-time critic of the low-fat diet and a proponent of the benefits of saturated fat, from sources such as butter, full fat cream, and bacon. Some quotes from Prof. Nyström translated into English from Dr. Eenfeldt:

“I’ve been working with this for so long. It feels great to have this scientific report, and that the skepticism towards low-carb diets among my colleagues has disappeared during the course of the work. When all recent scientific studies are lined up the result is indisputable: our deep-seated fear of fat is completely unfounded. You don’t get fat from fatty foods, just as you don’t get atherosclerosis from calcium or turn green from green vegetables.”

Nyström has long advocated a greatly reduced intake of carbohydrate-rich foods high in sugar and starch, in order to achieve healthy levels of insulin, blood lipids and the good cholesterol. This means doing away with sugar, potatoes, pasta, rice, wheat flour, bread, and embracing olive oil, nuts, butter, full fat cream, oily fish and fattier meat cuts. “If you eat potatoes you might as well eat candy. Potatoes contain glucose units in a chain, which is converted to sugar in the GI tract. Such a diet causes blood sugar, and then the hormone insulin, to skyrocket.”

There are many mantras we have been taught to accept as truths:

“Calories are calories, no matter where they come from.”

“It’s all about the balance between calories in and calories out.”

“People are fat because they don’t move enough.”

“Breakfast is the most important meal of the day.”

“Of course these are not true. This kind of nonsense has people with weight problems feeling bad about themselves. As if it were all about their inferior character. For many people a greater intake of fat means that you’ll feel satiated, stay so longer, and have less of a need to eat every five minutes. On the other hand, you won’t feel satiated after drinking a Coke, or after eating almost fat free, low-fat fruit yogurt loaded with sugar. Sure, exercise is great in many ways, but what really affects weight is diet.” (Source.)

Will the USDA Now Revise Their Guidelines?

The scientific literature implicating the dangers of refined carbohydrates and the benefits of healthy fats has been around for decades now. One probable reason why this study was done in Sweden is that a lot of people were obvious already following such a diet. Currently in Sweden, it is estimated that only 14 percent of the population are obese compared with one-third in the USA.

So will the U.S. follow suit and explore revising USDA dietary guidelines? Not likely.

As I have recently pointed out in an article published YOU the Taxpayer are Funding the Agri Business Takeover of our Food Supply, the USDA nutritional guidelines favor the heavily subsidized crops of wheat, soy, and corn. The political forces are just too strong in the U.S. right now to allow any dietary advice that would cut into corporate profits and their production of cheap food to dominate world food supplies.

This dietary advice of a low-carb high-fat diet has been around since the 1920s, when the ketogenic diet was developed at John Hopkins Hospital to cure epilepsy in children who did not respond to drugs. With the advent of the USDA diet guidelines, starting with the McGovern Report in the 1970s, fat was condemned and the low-fat diet advice was promoted through the healthcare system. You can see original TV coverage of this report from 1977 in this YouTube clip from The Fat Head movie:


In 2002, science journalist Gary Taubes began writing on the dangers of the high-carbohydrate diet and benefits of a high-fat diet, and his work was published in both the N.Y. Times and Time Magazine. His article title was “What If It Were All a Big Fat Lie!”

With mainstream media now covering the truth about the fallacies of the low-fat diet in the early 2000s, Dr. Atkins and his low-carb high-fat diet, which had been around for many years, gained a huge following. Various forms of the low-carb high-fat diet exist today in the U.S., but they are still considered “fringe” and “extreme.” The low-carb high-fat diet is routinely attacked by the government and medical system, even as pharmaceutical companies rush to make patented drugs that mimic the ketone effects of the diet, particularly in cancer treatment, the largest market share for pharmaceutical companies.

So, while Sweden has taken a huge step forward in following a commission who looked at over 16,000 studies and confirmed science that has been around for many years, don’t expect the U.S. government to do anything similar anytime soon. It is up to you to do your own research to understand the REAL facts about a healthy diet.

Sources

Sweden touts low-carb diet as key to weight loss

Swedish Expert Committee: A Low-Carb Diet Most Effective for Weight Loss

Fat Trims Your Waistline

- See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/sw...h.5GAuHXJq.dpuf
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  #24   ^
Old Mon, May-18-15, 06:56
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,569
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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Quote:
The low-carb high-fat diet is routinely attacked by the government and medical system, even as pharmaceutical companies rush to make patented drugs that mimic the ketone effects of the diet, particularly in cancer treatment, the largest market share for pharmaceutical companies.


I think this is huge. They are admitting it works.
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  #25   ^
Old Mon, May-18-15, 22:44
aj_cohn's Avatar
aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Posts: 3,948
 
Plan: Protein Power
Stats: 213/167/165 Male 65 in.
BF:35%/23%/20%
Progress: 96%
Location: United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
The sort of universal glucose requirement that Paul Jaminet pushes doesn't seem to have much to support it though.


Except from the data that PHD/paleo advocates can marshall:except from the very public positions of health practitioners:
  • Dr. Cate Shanahan
  • Chris Kresser;
except from researchers with PhD's in biochemistry:
  • Stephen Guyenet
  • Chris Masterjohn
  • Dan Pardi
  • Mat Lalonde;
except from a growing number of high-profile RDs:
Outside of that, no — not much support at all.
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  #26   ^
Old Tue, May-19-15, 04:57
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 13,104
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I said universal glucose requirement. And I meant it. To be clear, I meant dietary requirement.



Quote:
Well, there are glycogen storage diseases and deficiencies in fat and ketone metabolism that can make glucose essential. The sort of universal glucose requirement that Paul Jaminet pushes doesn't seem to have much to support it though.

When somebody does better with a Perfect Health or other moderate carb approach vs. Atkins or something more ketogenic, it's hard to say that the carbohydrate is what made the difference. Even if the additional carbohydrate comes from something like white rice, there's a lot of nutrition coming along for the ride along with the carbohydrate. I guess a study with pure white sugar or starch might help prove if there's such a thing as a glucose deficiency (in a more common sense).


Like I said here, somebody adds rice, or potato, does better--they aren't eating pure carbohydrate. There's a lot of other stuff in there, that isn't a pure experiment, it doesn't establish that a person is doing better because of the starch or sugar rather than from any number of other nutrients that might have a benefit.

Or even if a person does do better, when carbohydrate is added in--why will some thrive on a ketogenic diet, and some not? Those other nutrients might come into play again, a person could lack the nutritional support that would allow them to thrive on a ketogenic ratio. This view might not have anything more to support it than the view that carbohydrate is an essential nutrient. But that's the point, more carefully controlled experiments are needed to be certain why something works.

Going in, I did nothing to deny the anecdotal/clinical evidence that some people do better with more carbohydrate. I only denied that it was established that the carbohydrate itself was the determining factor. So, do I deny that people not doing well on a ketogenic diet should try something else, if it's worked for other people? Of course not. Very often we know what works before we know why it works. We should do what works.

The use of the ketogenic diet in epilepsy doesn't really suggest that dietary carbohydrate is a requirement. An infant's brain takes up 50 percent of resting metabolism, an adult's 20 percent. I'd expect glucose deficiency issues to show up there, before it showed up in an adult population. Nutrient deficiencies do show up sometimes, which isn't surprising--it is a very restricted diet, at that high a fat percentage, I do think you have to be more careful about where you're getting your vitamins, minerals, phytonutrients. There's also some stunted growth--but protein restriction itself would predict that.
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  #27   ^
Old Tue, May-19-15, 13:49
HappyLC's Avatar
HappyLC HappyLC is offline
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Posts: 1,808
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 212/177/135 Female 66.75
BF:
Progress: 45%
Location: Long Island, NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64dodger
Sweden has become the first Western nation to develop national dietary guidelines that reject the popular low-fat diet dogma in favor of low-carb high-fat nutrition advice


I've seen this everywhere, but I'm not sure it's true.

https://experiencelife.com/newsflas...fat-guidelines/

Quote:
When we contacted Anna Karin Lindroos, PhD, a nutritionist at Sweden’s National Food Agency, to ask about the new guidelines, she set the record straight: “Sweden does not have any guidelines on low-carb-high-fat diets. The information that Sweden has guidelines on low-carb-high-fat diets is based on incorrect information circulating on the Internet.”
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  #28   ^
Old Sat, May-23-15, 06:16
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,609
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Sam Feltham interviews Dr. Hallberg:

http://live.smashthefat.com/ignorin...ype-2-diabetes/
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  #29   ^
Old Sat, Jun-06-15, 08:08
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,609
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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For fans of this TEDTalk, we aren't alone, it went over 100,000 views in one month.
Dr Hallberg has started a new Friday feature of a Tutoring Session with video answers to readers questions. First question is on cholesterol panel after switching to a LCHF diet and vegan diets. You can submit questions via her FB page.
On her website:
http://fitteru.us
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  #30   ^
Old Sun, Jun-21-15, 05:40
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 10,609
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Link to post with study results of her IU program vs. the standard ADA plan.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...194#post9020194

The talk is up to 160K views in less than 2 months. Hope the study results will be added to her website.
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