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  #61   ^
Old Thu, Jul-24-14, 08:31
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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I completed my 4th 24 hour fast yesterday, no new weight loss today, but FBS was low again, 85; that's enough for me. The first fasting 3 days I was able to eat pretty normally breaking the fast, but last night had about 800 calories for dinner. I'm wondering if the hunger is cumulative and when I do 2 eating days in a row this weekend, will it dissipate? I also wonder if eating at noon, rather than at dinner, or somewhere in between the two might not be a better pattern for me. I sleep well on a very hungry stomach, but do not function so well in the afternoon.

I'm reading back through all the blog posts now and trying to reconcile two somewhat competing ideas: 1) cutting calories slows metabolism to preserve the body and 2) fasting does not set this in motion IF done intermittently.

And yet he has patients that fast more continuously and they do well. For now, I'm hoping that those large meals post-fasting keep my body from thinking I'm starving it. At least that's what I'm telling myself. Like Janet reported a few days ago, I've found myself spontaneously eating somewhat less on eating days, not sure if that is good or bad in terms of the potential for slowing metabolism.
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  #62   ^
Old Thu, Jul-24-14, 10:32
Fauve Fauve is online now
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Posts: 1,207
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Victoria, BC
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Liz, I’m going to follow your advice and ease into fasting. I am also hoping that just extend time without food will help matters. As it is, I do fifteen hours without problem. I go to bed hungry, but it does not prevent me from sleeping; it seems to actually help me get a deeper sleep.

Janet, thanks for the link on bone broth. Putting the slow cooker on the balcony… smart; I wonder if the smell would bother my neighbours or if it would dissipate. I live on the 10th floor of a 31 floor building. I think I’ll try it and check if it bothers anybody. I have seen some organic chicken broth at my grocery store downstairs, I may try that too, if you think it is good enough. I never thought that store chicken broth was made with bones. Silly me.

This is a very helpful thread. Thank you all.
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  #63   ^
Old Fri, Jul-25-14, 04:02
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,102
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Chicken broth actually doesn't smell bad, but DH complained when I found pastured goat bones at the farmers market (his Paleo plan only goes so far) and 24 hours is a long time even for a nice odor. Sure it will be fine on your balcony, except maybe drive some little dogs nuts with desire.

Maybe it is just a mental trick, but knowing I can have a big dinner each day makes the concept of a 24 hr fast much easier to accept, as does the option to have CO, or broth, and all the other choices.

I asked on Bonnie's thread too, but has anyone tried using a fiber supplement to lower blood sugar? On Dr Hyman's rec 2 years ago, I bought PGX, a konjac fiber. Thinking about adding it again more slowly this time, though that would be another element to the fast here. But since Dr Fung thinks fiber is "protective" I would think he would support it too? He includes 1 TBsp of Psyllium Fiber in his patient guidelines (never liked it much) so any other fiber recs from anyone following this thread? Any BG improvement from it?

Last edited by JEY100 : Fri, Jul-25-14 at 04:41.
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  #64   ^
Old Fri, Jul-25-14, 07:28
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 2,153
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
I'm reading back through all the blog posts now and trying to reconcile two somewhat competing ideas: 1) cutting calories slows metabolism to preserve the body and 2) fasting does not set this in motion IF done intermittently.

And yet he has patients that fast more continuously and they do well.


It sounded to me that the body's adaptation to continuously restricted calories was to slow metabolism rather than the net reduction of calories that results from intermittent fasting. He talked about a study that indicated the same reduction in calories for each group in the end, but the ones who had reduced calories through intermittent fasting had not had the slowed down metabolism that the less-calories-every-day group had. It would be as if our ancestors, nomads perhaps, had relocated to an area with less food, so they would adapt/survive by becoming more energy efficient with lower metabolisms. Or alternatively, if the food source itself was intermittent, then they could not afford the slow down in seeking out food or they couldn't function/survive. That was my understanding, anyway.

What's happening in a lengthy fast? I'm thinking that we're living quite well with all the calories we need off our own fat, so therefore, no ultimate famine effect. The trouble would come in when we don't have that fat. I remember he talked about the 400+ lb man who fasted over a year down to 180 lbs. I know he said he was monitored for his health and it was fine, but I don't actually remember if he said he had had no reduced metabolism or not.

So much of what we think we know about metabolism too is based on reduced calorie diets that were most likely reduced fat/some carb diets.
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  #65   ^
Old Fri, Jul-25-14, 08:46
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx

What's happening in a lengthy fast? I'm thinking that we're living quite well with all the calories we need off our own fat, so therefore, no ultimate famine effect. The trouble would come in when we don't have that fat. I remember he talked about the 400+ lb man who fasted over a year down to 180 lbs. I know he said he was monitored for his health and it was fine, but I don't actually remember if he said he had had no reduced metabolism or not.

So much of what we think we know about metabolism too is based on reduced calorie diets that were most likely reduced fat/some carb diets.


I think that makes a lot of sense, JLx, because fasting would create more opportunity to access stored fat to nourish while food cannot be ingested. But when he compares low carb to low fat at 6 or 12 months after loss (analyzing the A to Z study), LC is not necessarily more effective at keeping the weight off. My recollection is that he attributes at least part of that weight regain is to slowed metabolism, but it's hard to know without knowing exactly how they ate post-diet. He doesn't really address weight rebound with fasting - he says slowed metabolism does not occur, but how is he judging that and how long has his first fasting patient been doing this? I will have to find the time to re-read some of those posts.

RE: the fiber, JEY, I noticed the PGX in Blood Sugar Solution and was going to ask YOU about it. I first heard about it when I visited Japan in 1999 and commented to one of our guides how thin the teenage girls and young women were and she told me that many of them eat konjac in lieu of meals. It fills them up with no calories. For blood sugar, though, I don't know. It's probably worth a try if you're not getting the results you want with timing. It seems from the testimonial videos that the folks on Dr Fung's program begin reducing insulin/drugs at the 2 week point and it continues for another 4-10 weeks, sometimes longer? I'd like to know if any of them were eating LC beforehand or if they were all following a standard ADA + drugs + insulin plan.

I'm starting to notice a pattern of better weight loss following eating days (another pound since yesterday) and FBS was in the 80s (albeit, just barely at 89) today. I'm still trying to decide if I'm going to fast today since I have a meeting this morning and a possible lunch afterwards. I know I can just say I had a late breakfast (meeting is at 11) but will I be able to stand just sitting there with a cup of coffee while everyone else eats lunch? It will all depend on how hungry I am. Perhaps a T of coconut oil before I leave will do the trick.

Last edited by Liz53 : Fri, Jul-25-14 at 08:52.
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  #66   ^
Old Fri, Jul-25-14, 09:11
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,153
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Maybe it is just a mental trick, but knowing I can have a big dinner each day makes the concept of a 24 hr fast much easier to accept, as does the option to have CO, or broth, and all the other choices.


So far I've done three 36 hour fasts this week. Mostly because I'm in a hurry to lose this weight, as it's all re-gain weight and I've just been sick about it (when I wasn't firmly in denial and eating to bring it about). I kind of like the symmetry of a whole breakfast/lunch/dinner day without food every other day. Until I get tired of it, when I figure the 24 hrs should feel very doable and more importantly, sustainable as my impression was that we just keep doing fasting, if not every other day, then some variation of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
I asked on Bonnie's thread too, but has anyone tried using a fiber supplement to lower blood sugar? On Dr Hyman's rec 2 years ago, I bought PGX, a konjac fiber. Thinking about adding it again more slowly this time, though that would be another element to the fast here. But since Dr Fung thinks fiber is "protective" I would think he would support it too? He includes 1 TBsp of Psyllium Fiber in his patient guidelines (never liked it much) so any other fiber recs from anyone following this thread? Any BG improvement from it?


I have PGX too but didn't take it much because it gave me bad gas. It might be different now that I've been addressing my gut bugs or maybe I just need to go slower as you say. I wasn't checking BS back in those days. I've been adding acacia fiber to my puddings but couldn't say if it affects blood sugar or not, it just seems like a good idea. I would think it would mostly be indicated in conjunction with eating carbs rather than during a fast, otherwise why would it have an effect on blood sugar? Perhaps the psyllium fiber is for the feeling of fullness or constipation when eating so much less food overall.

I've been adding the vinegar the past couple nights, my morning BS is definitely affected. It's been 125 after an eating day and 110 after a fast day and after the first vinegar dose, it was 100 and today after the second vinegar night, it was 90.

What's disturbing, however, is in both of these vinegar nights, I've had really serious joint pain. I can't think why it would be the vinegar as vinegar is supposed to be good for joint pain, but can't see why it would be anything else either though I have had bone broth, teas and cream the last two fasts that I didn't have the first time. I don't think it's exercise related as I only had two short walks yesterday. I suppose it could be a "normal" pain flare up.
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  #67   ^
Old Sat, Jul-26-14, 16:27
Fauve Fauve is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 1,207
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Victoria, BC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Maybe it is just a mental trick, but knowing I can have a big dinner each day makes the concept of a 24 hr fast much easier to accept, as does the option to have CO, or broth, and all the other choices.


So what exactly are those options on fasting days? you mention CO, but that has a lot of calories. In my mind, fasting is consuming no calories. Does he allow fat calories though, because it has no effect on insulin? Is that the idea?
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  #68   ^
Old Sat, Jul-26-14, 16:41
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,102
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fauve
So what exactly are those options on fasting days? you mention CO, but that has a lot of calories. In my mind, fasting is consuming no calories. Does he allow fat calories though, because it has no effect on insulin? Is that the idea?

Apparently. But go to his home page, click patients, patient resources, and fasting guidelines. Start here, also has food list. http://intensivedietarymanagement.c...index-idm-2-2/#
Patients has the timing options and allowed extras. I have either printed or saved to computer all these document resources.
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  #69   ^
Old Sat, Jul-26-14, 17:37
Fauve Fauve is online now
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Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Victoria, BC
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Thank you Janet. I'll be trying this tomorrow. A bit anxious, but excited at the same time.
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  #70   ^
Old Sun, Jul-27-14, 05:04
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,102
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Danielle, Read all his tips, keep busy (maybe take a long walk around Stanley Park?..enjoy your gorgeous city!) Exercise seems to blunt my appetite, so does lots of tea or coffee, just decaf iced tea or a hot cinnamon tea in the afternoon. Not sure I will lose any more weight unless I do restrict calories, and I have not done that yet. Trying timing and added fiber but calories are not much lower.
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  #71   ^
Old Sun, Jul-27-14, 14:22
Fauve Fauve is online now
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Posts: 1,207
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Victoria, BC
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Thank you, Janet. You know my backyard well! I am on the seawall just about every day, but today, being unsure on how I would feel, I am staying close to home. It has been nearly 20 hours now, and I'm ok. Surprised actually that I am not on the verge of fainting, lol. It is obviously all in my head, the fear of fasting. Since I have followed a near zero carb diet for years now, obviously my blood sugars are quiet stable. I need to quiet down and believe that I will be alright without food for a while. All in my head. sigh. Thanks for your support. And since you have pointed me in the right direction, I have been reading Dr. Fung's blog and all his advice. Very helpful. Mind over matter.
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  #72   ^
Old Sun, Jul-27-14, 14:32
Fauve Fauve is online now
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Posts: 1,207
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Victoria, BC
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I am hoping that my insulin level will drop with intermittent fasting. It is 'normal' as far as my doctor is concerned, but in my opinion 'high normal'. I hope that by lowering it a bit, I might be able to eat more calories, and not have to keep track of them so closely. I see you have a similar approach.
I also hope to decrease my waist size. Tall order, I know.
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  #73   ^
Old Mon, Jul-28-14, 02:57
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JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,102
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Duplicate post deleted.

Last edited by JEY100 : Mon, Jul-28-14 at 03:06.
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  #74   ^
Old Mon, Jul-28-14, 03:05
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,102
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Hope you survived the first 24 hour :-) wasn't so bad was it? Not crazzzzy, as he says the in lectures. And walking around the seawall would take my mind off anything! For the first time yesterday, I wasn't so hungry at dinner, ate a large meal with many veggies that filled me up without it being very high calorie too.

Fasting insulin is tricky to read, need BG too, and I have found it very sensitive to not only what I ate the day before but how long the fast. Reading from an 18 hour fast was below normal, reading from a 12 hour fast higher than I liked. Depended on when the blood draw was scheduled, so not that accurate, but it is nice to see it low.

Thinking about Vancouver, last winter I started Yin Yoga, a slow joint stretching practice, and found this lovely young teacher on video from Victoria. I could just watch her video filmed on the beach and do absolutely nothing...it is so relaxing and beautiful. http://youtu.be/MOFnH1bVWmQ
In fact, this is a Mindful Yin Yoga hour, and Dr. Fung recommends Mindful Meditation. I spend most of the summer outside, but might do a session again now that you have reminded me of it.

Last edited by JEY100 : Mon, Jul-28-14 at 04:54.
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  #75   ^
Old Mon, Jul-28-14, 10:45
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/170/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 34%
Location: NE WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Fasting insulin is tricky to read


How do you test for insulin level at home?
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