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  #46   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 13:50
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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That's such an interesting post, Janet. A little over a year ago, a friend's husband who runs a diabetes research lab (focusing on type 1) told me that bariatric surgery immediately resolves diabetes because parts of the stomach that house hormone producing glands are removed. At the time, I did not realize that there were glands in the stomach and was puzzled. However, putting that info together with this post, I imagine incretin must be one of those hormones. Of course he was working with Pharma to create drugs to mimic the effect of removing the glands. How much more direct - and reversible, if need be - it is to simply fast and restore those glands to their optimum pulsile rhythm.

Following his links and the links they provide, I found this for you, Janet. Not only did they find that vinegar lowers insulin response, it increases satiety (it makes sense they would go together).
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  #47   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 15:41
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 2,153
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100

JL, I use to buy the Harney & Sons Hot Cinnamon Spice tea, but Celestial Seasonings Bengal Spice is close and you can get that almost anywhere.


Thanks for the recommendation. I used to drink some kind of cinnamon tea as I have never liked regular tea but don't remember what kind. I see I can get Bengal Spice at a local Walmart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Chia Pudding, first read about Chia here and made the chocolate version of this one, without all that stevia. http://healthylivinghowto.com/1/pos...chia-seeds.html
To up the fat, now I use a can of full-fat Thai Kitchen Coconut Milk, 1/4 c. Chia seed, 1tsp vanilla, a few Tablespoons of cocoa powder, and stevia extract to taste. I shake it up in a Rubbermaid lidded container a few times and let the chia absorb liquid. In the fridge it will firm up. Chia seed in Lemon water was yucky, right up there with chicken feet


The only chia pudding I made I didn't really like but I will try this one, thanks. I had chia seed with lemon water today and it gave me heartburn.

So far today I am not as hungry as I was Sunday and I'm' going for he 36 hour fast as a result.

I haven't tried the broth I made yet but suspect it doesn't have the gel content that Dr. Fung advises. I've been taking Now brand gelatin with water for some time now and might add some if it seems too weak. The gelatin has been helpful in helping me sleep without waking up periodically.

My name is Janet too, btw, but I've gone by JL online for a long time
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  #48   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 16:22
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 2,153
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Some more evidence that we're on the right track:

Eating two larger meals a day (breakfast and lunch) is more
effective than six smaller meals in a reduced-energy regimen
for patients with type 2 diabetes: a randomised crossover study
http://www.diabetologia-journal.org/files/Kahleova.pdf

This was in this article by David Mendosa:

Quote:
Until now, some experts on health have recommended that we eat several small meals a day to help us lose weight. It also seemed logical that eating smaller meals would have less of an impact on the blood sugar of those of us with diabetes.

But a new study demonstrated that some people with type 2 diabetes who ate only breakfast and lunch lost more weight than when they ate six smaller meals a day. In this randomized crossover study they also had bigger decreases in fasting blood sugar, bigger improvement in insulin sensitivity, and bigger improvements in other markers of better diabetes management.

Researchers in the Czech Republic worked with 54 people with diabetes for 24 weeks to have them eat the same number of calories spread over either two or six meals a day. The people in the study followed diets of eating six small meals a day or two large daily meals for 12 weeks. Then they switched to the other diet plan for 12 more weeks.

In the two-meal group they ate breakfast between 6 a.m. and 10 a.m. followed by lunch between noon and 4 p.m. When they switched diet plans they could eat six times a day whenever they wanted.

Each diet had 500 fewer calories than normal. When they ate the two bigger meals, they averaged a weight loss of 3 pounds more and lost 1 1/2 inches more from their waist size than when they ate six smaller meals of equal total calories.

“Eating only breakfast and lunch reduced body weight, liver fat content, fasting plasma glucose, C-peptide and glucagon, and increased oral glucose insulin sensitivity more than the same caloric restriction split into six meals,” says Hana Kahleova, MD, PhD. She is the study’s lead author and a researcher at the Diabetes Centre of the Institute for Clinical and Experimental Medicine in Prague. The journal of the European Association for the Study of Diabetes, Diabetologia, published this research May 20 online in advance of print.

“The patients were really afraid they would get hungry in the evening,” says Dr. Kahleova. “But feelings of hunger were lower as the patients ate until they were satisfied. When they ate six times a day the meals were not leaving them feeling satisfied. It was quite surprising.”
- See more at: http://www.healthcentral.com/diabet...h.1NEeFid1.dpuf


This was a small study but I found the "Findings in relation to other research" to be quite interesting too.
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  #49   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 16:56
Fauve Fauve is offline
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Plan: Carnivore
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What an interesting thread! Thank you.
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  #50   ^
Old Wed, Jul-23-14, 04:07
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JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,102
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Good Morning Janet, Liz, and Danielle,
Chicken bone broth is still simmering away in a crockpot on the porch so I will finally have a good broth later for a fast day. The PaleoView podcast just had a bone broth show...they cook theirs for days until the bones themselves are soft and fall apart. I only do about 24 hrs for chicken to get out enough gelatin.

It does seem when I take 1T ACV in 1c water before dinner that the normal hunger before dinner, especially after a 24 hr fast, seems to lessen. Last night I ate all of a big salad but only half the steak, could satiety kick in within 30 minutes?

I am not yet seeing consistently lower BG, this morning another FBG at 101 and last night before dinner 102. Brunch had been about 6 hours before that, though I was sipping on some plain, iced green tea in the hours before taking BG. The only time I see really good BG is (naturally) after the 24 hr fast. Levels in general are going somewhat lower but they are taking their sweet time. I wonder if any food or even drink (green tea) in the stomach would set all these hormones to work? All very interesting...need to read more, thanks for the additional links.

Having 1T CO in coffee now before a 7am deep water aerobics class. Hard work and the CO helps with energy (or may be deluded but I don't feel as well without) I have not used more than 1T/day though it and other additives appear to be allowed as needed.

Signed..the other Janet (which is already my name in the LC support group, the woman who was featured in the CBN video on diabetes is also a Janet)..a popular low carb name

My Walmart (a new Neighborhood format) has both the CS Bengal Spice tea and Thai Kitchen coconut milk.

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Jul-23-14 at 07:41.
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  #51   ^
Old Wed, Jul-23-14, 07:53
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
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Quote:
they cook theirs for days until the bones themselves are soft and fall apart.


You can get this with pork ribs in a slow-cooker in about ten hours. When I do ribs, I just eat the whole bones.
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  #52   ^
Old Wed, Jul-23-14, 09:22
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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Yum, bone broth. I'll be having some at lunch as it is another fasting day for me. Monday seemed pretty easy, I hope today will be as well. I'll be at the gym for an hour and 1/4 this morning, and have a long list of Things to Do to keep me from thinking about food this afternoon.

Thanks for the study on eating 6x/day vs. 2x, JLx. It certainly accords with what I have found both in terms of hunger and weight loss. It is still very difficult for me to not have a snack at 4 if I eat lunch. An ideal schedule for me would probably be breakfast at 8 and lunch/dinner somewhere around 4. I've got my husband on board with the *idea* of following Fung's plan, so who knows, it might happen.

Last night I watched the remaining video on the IDM site that I'd never watched - the Story of Calcium. Not surprisingly, Dr Fung brings up a bunch of studies that show that calcium supplements are either not helpful or even harmful, though he is supportive of getting calcium from food, particularly green leafy vegetables (and he points out that cows get calcium from vegetation as well). He is particularly opposed to relying on milk for calcium as it is 1) not a good source and 2) has too much insulin-raising protein and growth factors. So far, so good, but he cites T Colin Campbell's findings to support some of his assertions, and even mentions that Campbell's father was a dairy farmer (implying that Campbell would have had a natural bias towards milk, and had seen the light). Anyway, in light of Fung's viewpoint that diabetes is a function of Insulin Resistance, with high blood sugars as a symptom, it makes me want to go back to the debate between Dr Eric Westman and T Colin Campbell to see if there are any insights that Campbell might have. Westman pretty much wiped the floor with him, but perhaps perhaps there is some useful info embedded in that video. Obviously, Dr Fung paid attention to it.

The Story of Calcium was actually a great presentation. I'd heard much of what he relayed before in dribs and drabs as it came out in the news. But to see the results of each study build on the previous, it is pretty darn convincing. I gave up calcium supplements a year or more ago, and it was good to get this confirmation that I'm on the right track.

After some ice cream on Sunday (experiment: is the fat in ice cream enough to slow down digestion to offset the sugar? findings: no), my fasting glucose was 103 the next morning. After 2 days of IDM fast one day and LC/somewhat limited protein the next, FBS this morning was completely normal at 83. How I wish there were some way to do a quick, relatively cheap check of insulin levels a few times a day.

JEY, you will never be the Other Janet. I think I will revert to JEY and JLx.
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  #53   ^
Old Wed, Jul-23-14, 10:05
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 45,363
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: San Diego, CA
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I remember reading Dennis Minger's China Study Critique she did find some evidence that casein (dairy protein) might be problematic. And yes, Campbell also found that. I'm not sure she ever followed up with it. I will have to look.

Quote:
2. “The China Study” dies another death. Up until recently, my biggest beef with Campbell’s casein research was his attempt to extrapolate casein’s effects to all forms of animal protein, despite demonstrating that plant proteins can behave the same way. But now a bigger, stronger, beefier beef has hoofed its way into the picture. Sherlock Holmes Chris Masterjohn did some sleuthing and made some very interesting discoveries about what the casein research really showed. If you haven’t read this article yet, please do so. Now.


Sadly, the link to Masterjohn's posting is broken.

http://rawfoodsos.com/?s=casein

Ah... my google-fu is strong today: http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/c...prevent-cancer/
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  #54   ^
Old Wed, Jul-23-14, 10:36
Fauve Fauve is offline
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Posts: 1,207
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 000/000/000 Female 63
BF:
Progress: 94%
Location: Victoria, BC
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About bone broth - I cook mine for about ten hours in the slow cooker (like Teaser it seems); I wonder if it is long enough. In the summer, it is really too hot in my little condo to cook anything, so where could I get something equivalent? If it is even possible.

About fasting - that scares me. I feel terrible when I don't eat. So for now, I am just extending the fasting window: I eat dinner at 5 and then nothing till breakfast at 8, then lunch around 12. I will try and play with these until I can skip lunch and just have 2 meals a day. If that helps. Trying very hard to lower insulin level.

I have managed for the last 2 years to keep my weight stable, and I am happy about that; but it is still about 15 lbs above what I deem to be my perfect weight.
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  #55   ^
Old Wed, Jul-23-14, 12:41
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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Danielle, I eased into fasting and had a pretty rough time those first 2 tries. The first day I made it about 20 hours, the second time only 18. Monday was the first day I made it to 24. I have to think (based on Dr Fung's videos) that any time you extend time without food you are going to reduce insulin resistance and that is really what we are after. I'm in awe of you keeping your weight off for two years. I've managed to keep a few pounds off for 20 years, a few more for 10, and almost 15 for 3.5 now, but I still pop up 5-10 lbs periodically and am always desirous of losing *another 10-15*.

My bone broth is definitely cooked less than 10 hours. It is still very satisfying to me (and my cat, spooned over wet food) and nicely gelatinous. Over time, I'll try to improve it. For now, I'm not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

A friend to whom I sent the Fung videos sent me this gossip about fasting programs. I wonder if this some of the research that Fung is relying on - who knows? If nothing else, it suggests there are many ways to skin the cat.

Nancy, if I'm not mistaken Dr Fung is more concerned with the effects of whey, rather than casein. I think that is buried in one of more of his 10+ videos, but at the moment I can't tell you where (they're all worth a look, in order, if you are interested). I don't think he specifically mentioned casein last night, but I do recall Campbell seemed to single out casein. So we may have a conundrum here.

He does indicate that protein is higher on the insulin index than it is on the glycemic index, but he in no way suggests we all become vegetarians (at least not in anything I've seen yet). Generally, he says to eliminate refined foods first, particularly carbohydrates and industrial oils, but not to ignore the fact that protein raises insulin more than we would expect from the glycemic index. In other words, sugar levels and the glycemic index don't tell the whole story - which you know firsthand from your experiments with nutritional ketosis.

ETA: here's a link to how dairy foods affect insulin.

Last edited by Liz53 : Wed, Jul-23-14 at 13:37.
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  #56   ^
Old Wed, Jul-23-14, 16:00
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 45,363
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
BF:
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Location: San Diego, CA
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No, I think whey is insulinogenic. I haven't finished the casein article, but Campbell was most likely wrong. The man likes to bed results to fit his beliefs.
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  #57   ^
Old Thu, Jul-24-14, 03:26
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,102
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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My report after three weeks using Dr. Fung's alternate day 24 hour fast protocol: Blood sugars are generally becoming lower but only "perfect" after a the 24hr fast. Knowing mine are likely the result of being VLC for four years, I plan to add some carbs with lentils and try small amounts of resistant starch starting today. Having larger amounts of vegetables and some berries didn't up my carbs very much (hard to break old habits). It is time to add some high fiber starchy carbs...scary thought. Bought some of the popular steamed lentils at TraderJoes yesterday..starting small

I have lost 8 pounds but the first five pounds all in the first week, were the result of too many celebrations not low carb at all. My scale can go up five pounds with one dinner out including drinks and more food than usual. So weight loss hasn't been dramatic either... but it is slowly happening. Stomach is flat again, clothes already fit better, basically the result of No Snacking Ever and these dinner to dinner fasts every other day. I can really pack it away when dinner does roll around, so my total calories have not been that much lower ( ha, proved that study wrong so far!) Though no wine/drinks these past three weeks, so food choices have been better too. It may be the novelty of a new eating pattern but I am committed to two months on this plan and looking forward to seeing more results. I can handle the 24 hour fast rather easily, but am hungry for that dinner. Do not yet want to "up my game" for faster results as he suggests with 36 hour fasts or other meal timing patterns.

I follow the BalancedBites instructions for bone broth for 24 hours. http://balancedbites.com/2011/04/ea...bone-broth.html Solved the heat and smell issue by putting the slow cooker on a screened porch, and I must say, that broth hit the spot at 2 pm after an intense workout with new equipment in the morning. But I had been happy with Trader Joe's organic chicken broth in a box before and still think it is good quality. Or Pacific Organic at WF or Kroger. Some on-line grass-fed meat places do sell bone broth for $$$.

Had a craving for a Pumpkin MIM...haven't seen any mention of Flaxmeal in his lists but I'm going on the assumption all fiber is all good.

Last edited by JEY100 : Thu, Jul-24-14 at 09:48.
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  #58   ^
Old Thu, Jul-24-14, 05:01
pivoine's Avatar
pivoine pivoine is offline
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Posts: 415
 
Plan: lchf + if
Stats: 230/169/130 Female 5' 5-1/2"
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Location: France
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I've enjoyed reading this thread, but am frustrated by all the acronyms that I cannot decipher I finally figured out that BG is blood glucose. (One acronym translator on the internet suggested that it might be "bubble guts"). FBG = fasting blood glucose ? Please tell me what is AVC, and what is VLC ? What is a pumpkin "MIM" ? Or perhaps you can point me to a thread on this site which translates the common abbreviations ?
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  #59   ^
Old Thu, Jul-24-14, 05:16
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,102
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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So sorry pivione! IF (intermittent Fasting :-) is not something a new LCer (low carber) would likely do, unless it just comes naturally. And I am doing it to lower BG through lowering insulin response, though some weight loss to get me back under a healthy BMI would be nice too.

There is a post somewhere on this forum with acronyms but now I can't find it. Hopefully a moderator will step in with that.

Yes, FBG is fasting BG, usually first of the day though with IF that could be anytime you "break your fast". For this "experiment" every time I record a BG also noted is the number of hours since having food, whether 90 min after a meal or 24 hours after a fast.

ACV is Apple Cider Vinegar. Though vinegar comes in various types, white, balsamic, the one most often used in alternate health settings is the ACV with "the mother" (cloudy bits)

VLC is VeryLC, at least under 50g Total carbs per day.

And MIM can mean "Muffin in a Mug, or Minute" but a classic LC bread-like Flaxmeal based recipe you can cook in a microwave in about a minute. Check the recipe forum/breads/muffin index for dozens of versions.

Last edited by JEY100 : Thu, Jul-24-14 at 05:32.
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  #60   ^
Old Thu, Jul-24-14, 06:11
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 2,153
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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My first ever bone broth was pretty good, though it had as much fat as gelatin. I forgot if I was supposed to skim that off? Would it be acceptable to just add some beef gelatin maybe? This is something I've been taking plain in water for some time. It helps me sleep better through the night I've noticed and I was also hoping for some joint help. Haven't noticed anything there, though.

I've done two 36 hour fasts this week and would like to do another today but am leaving myself the 24 hr option too, as those last 12 hours were the worst, especially the night time hours when I didn't sleep well. I can hardly believe I'm successfully fasting! So far I've had 1 TB coconut oil a day, the juice from one lemon each day, and last time I had two cups of bone broth and 1 cup of green tea as well, besides tons of water. I'm not a green tea fan, or any tea for that matter, but I bought a bunch of teas yesterday. (Couldn't find the one you recommended, Janet, but have something similar). I wanted something I could put cinnamon in and/or also cream as I don't drink coffee. I think the addition of some cream in a decaff tea could get me through those last 12 hours of the 36 hr fast.

So, far I'm liking the fasting quite well and since all of Dr. Fung's patients have said the first month is the hardest, I'm looking forward to just how cool it might yet be. On my eating days, however, I feel like I'm eating too much and maybe that is one adjustment that comes with time.

Last night I forced down the 2 TB vinegar before bed. The straw really helps. I forgot to take my BS yesterday but otherwise it's been 125 after an eating day and 110 in the morning after a fast day. Yesterday was an eating day, and after the vinegar, this morning it was 110. Saturday is my official weely weigh in day, and so far I've been up and down whether it was post fast-day or not, but today I am down 3 lbs on a post-eating day, which I think is encouraging.

Re the whey and insulin, I thought it was on this list but see that it's not. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf
It must have been on a study linked somewhere because I'm picturing it on a page somewhat like that one. But anyway, Dr. Fung just responded to someone who commented on his last blog post:

Quote:
The whey protein will stimulate the incretin effect (much as the the DPP4 class of drugs) and therefore will lower blood sugar. However, you must ask yourself what is the point of decreasing blood sugars? It has been proven that lowering blood sugars in type 2 diabetes does not improve health. At its core, type 2 diabetes is a disease of too much blood sugar. Any treatment that does not remove sugar from the body is not likely to be helpful. whey protein may decrease blood sugar, but what happens to that blood sugar? The higher insulin levels created by the whey will help to store the sugar in the liver, causing fatty liver. This in turn leads to insulin resistance and increased fat. Is that good? You are simply moving sugar from the blood, where you can see it to the liver, where you cannot see it.
http://intensivedietarymanagement.com/incretin-effect/

I've learned to not use whey protein in smoothies because it always made me feel like crap, but have been using a little when called for in recipes for "bread" and other baked goods. I wonder if egg white protein could be substituted instead?
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