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  #31   ^
Old Mon, Jul-21-14, 09:46
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,103
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Found on the Reddit Keto forum, a cut down version of his six plus hours of lectures into less than 50 minutes of highlights:
http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/commen...ghlight_videos/

Dr Kristine Varady fasting tip:

Quote:
Have hot beverages with no sugar in them between meals on fast days ‘Drinking a warm beverage, especially at night tricks the body into thinking you have had a small, warm meal and lowers hunger,’ says Varady.
Eat enough protein on fast days ‘Proteins are associated with fullness and satiety so having enough meat or chicken or a good serve of beans if you’re vegetarian on your fast days is essential to keep you from getting too hungry.’

Last edited by JEY100 : Mon, Jul-21-14 at 11:11.
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  #32   ^
Old Mon, Jul-21-14, 19:51
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 2,153
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100

I've wondered too about his allowed legumes and other starches providing the resistant starch that others have found beneficial. I'd rather add some with real food than potato starch. Trying to keep the number of variables with this "experiment" manageable, so maybe after another week of this basic plan, I'll change up the foods too.


Potato starch being very convenient, easy to add and calculate, is the main attraction there. There are various types of RS too and I believe it's advisable to mix them up. I read all of the RS posts on Free the Animal at one point but have fallen behind since sometime in January.

Re the legumes and other foods usually avoided by low carbers, I noted this with interest, though I thought the post ended rather abruptly just when I thought it was getting interesting!

Quote:
http://intensivedietarymanagement.c...besity-part-xx/.

One of the founding principles of the low carbohydrate approach is that insulin is the key driver of obesity. This fact seems solidly grounded in science as we have discussed before. Carbs are the major macronutrient (out of fat, protein and carbs) that cause blood sugars to go up. As blood sugar goes up, insulin is assumed to also follow. Therefore, carbohydrates are assumed to play the major role in stimulating insulin release. This is true. However, we have not considered the possibility that food may increase the insulin levels without raising blood sugars.

The breakthrough was discovered in 1997, with the publication of the insulin index. Measuring the insulin response of 1000kJ portions of food, it was no surprise that the foods that stimulated insulin the most were the carbohydrate rich foods, bakery products, and snacks and confectionary. What was astounding was the fact that protein rich foods also significantly raised insulin levels.

Where most people assumed that there was a tight correlation between glucose levels and insulin levels, it turned out that only 23% of the variability in the insulin response was due to the glucose. In other words, only 23% of the insulin response is determined by how high the blood sugars rise. The vast majority of the insulin response (77%) is not related at all. Since it is insulin, and not glucose that drives weight gain, this changes everything.
This is precisely where the glycemic index diets failed. They were targeting the glucose response with the assumption that the insulin response mirrored the glucose. But this is not the case. You could lower the glucose response by diet, but you didn’t necessarily lower the insulin response. In the end, it is only the insulin response that matters.

The recent discovery of the incretin effect partially explains things. What has been recently appreciated is that the gastrointestinal tract, particularly the stomach and small intestine actively secrete hormones. There are so many neurone in the GI system that it has sometimes been called the ‘second brain’. The incretin hormones, Glucagon Like Peptide (GLP-1) and Glucose-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide (GIP) are secreted by the fundus of the stomach in response to food. GLP-1 is known to increase insulin release by the pancreas. The main role of GIP, found in the duodenum and jejunum (small intestine) is to stimulate insulin release. Fats, amino acids and glucose all stimulate GLP-1 release and thus, increased insulin. The amino acid glutamine may be a particularly potent stimulus.

Even non nutritive sweeteners, which have no calories at all, can stimulate the insulin response. Sucralose, when studied in obese human volunteers, raises the insulin level 22% higher than water. The GI tract and the pancreas can detect sugars through taste receptors similar to those in the mouth. This may activate secretion of GLP-1 and insulin.

Furthermore, there is a well-known effect called the ‘cephalic phase’ of insulin secretion. This refers to the fact that the body starts to anticipate food as soon as you put it in your mouth and long before any nutrients hit the stomach. Studies have shown insulin release in response to sucrose and saccharine even if you swish it around your mouth and spit it out.

Insulin does not respond only to high sugars, but the incretin effect shows that fatty acids and amino acids also play a role in the stimulation of insulin. Hold on. This changes everything. The simple implication is this. If carbohydrates are not the only, or even the major stimulus to insulin secretion, then restricting carbohydrates may not have as large an effect on insulin levels as we may have believed.
(my emphasis)

Seems like we need more studies on the insulin index, especially with more whole foods.
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  #33   ^
Old Mon, Jul-21-14, 20:05
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JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 2,153
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
I started following his plan a little over a week ago and did 2 days of fasting last week. I was only able to manage about 20 hours without food, but still shed a bit over 4 lbs in 5 days. Guests arrived Thursday and I ate "freely" (but still within a low carb framework). I gained back 2.5 lbs in 4 days, but still I kept almost 2 off. That's a victory for me. And I'm back to fasting today.


Glad to hear the fasting resulted in weight loss. Congrats. I managed the 36 hours fast, but the last 12 were pretty tough. Today I'm starting the alternative day thing, so I won't be eating breakfast and lunch on Tue and Thurs. Saturday I have to go somewhere or I would continue. I'm really hopeful for this technique. From reading the patient stories, it sounds like only the first month is the hardest one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
I watched Dr Fung's video on salt (part 8 of the aetiology of obesity)last night and to my surprise (sort of), higher salt consumption is correlated with lower mortality. It was interesting to see how he analyzed the data to show bias in CW advice to lower salt. I'm so impressed with the depth of his thinking and so happy that Janet found him and brought him to my attention.


I haven't watched that one yet. I too am impressed with this guy, thanks again Janet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
I'm hoping I can do the same this year relying more on timing and less on calorie restriction in order to keep metabolism up. Good luck to all of us!


Sounds good to me!
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  #34   ^
Old Mon, Jul-21-14, 20:49
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Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx
Glad to hear the fasting resulted in weight loss. Congrats. I managed the 36 hours fast, but the last 12 were pretty tough. Today I'm starting the alternative day thing, so I won't be eating breakfast and lunch on Tue and Thurs. Saturday I have to go somewhere or I would continue. I'm really hopeful for this technique. From reading the patient stories, it sounds like only the first month is the hardest one.



I fasted again today (my third try) and made it till 5 pm (actually a full 24 hours since I'd had an early dinner last night) with 1 T of coconut oil before the gym and a cup of heavily salted homemade bone broth at noon.. It seemed relatively easy. This is the first time I've gone to the gym without eating and while I was a bit apprehensive, it in fact was easier. Combined with a few errands afterwards, it kept my mind occupied all morning. Since I go to the gym MWF, I plan to make those all fast days. It's really great to have another strategy in my bag of LC tricks.
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  #35   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 05:06
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JEY100 JEY100 is offline
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Posts: 11,103
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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And thank you JL for picking out the interesting parts of the blogs. There is little on the Insulin Index, and some have already dismissed it as an expected reaction to high protein and glucagon (Guyenet), but the GIP and GLP-1 add another twist that makes more sense as to why timing would also improve BG.
I'm still doing the alternate day 24 hour version, plus because I dont like to eat before exercising, many of the eating days are in a 16:8 window with 1T of CO before workout. Finding I don't need 3 meals on the eating day.
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  #36   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 05:11
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JLx JLx is offline
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Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz53
1 T of coconut oil before the gym and a cup of heavily salted homemade bone broth at noon.. It's really great to have another strategy in my bag of LC tricks.


I agree! I've been really struggling with motivation lately and not been eating very well at all. I moved in with my aging mother and brother, i.e. Carb Land, after living alone most of my life and it's been very hard to have my home not be my low carb refuge from the rest of the world and I haven't handled it well.

I made started making bone broth yesterday and will have that available from now on. I didn't have "high quality bones" grassfed as he advised but just got what I could. I found Amish chickens but the beef and pork was just the usual stuff.

I wondered about his guidelines if he meant 1 TB of chia seeds per day? And 1 TB of coconut oil per day? I was actually a little surprised to see him say 1 TB of cream per cup of coffee with no restrictions on the number of cups. Cream has felt to be insulinogenic to me in the past (as opposed to other fat such as coconut oil). I don't drink coffee anyway but was just wondering.
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  #37   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 05:44
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,103
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Try everything and see what works for you.
1T chia did nothing for me in controlling hunger on the fast day, yet I like it in a coconut cream pudding as a dessert on an eating day.
1T CO does seem to help me all day with controlling hunger. For the dairy is Insulinotropic reason you mention, I have only been using coconut cream or almond milk in coffee and tea. Yesterday I had a Cinnamon flavored tea with extra cinnamon and splash of vanilla almond milk...tasty chai-like drink and had that "hot meal" effect. I had a bouillon cube one day (know it is a non-no but needed salt) and nearly died of hunger. So I too am still gathering the ingredients to make bone broth myself, though Liz suggested buying chicken feet...just can't get to that point to cook feet Sorry to hear about your Carbland home, maybe you could take over all the shopping. My DH is low Carb by default, or as someone called it here, collateral low carb.
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  #38   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 06:38
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JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 2,153
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Here's Dr. Fung's food guidelines as Janet posted earlier as a link:

Quote:
OUR DIETARY “INDEX”

Foods to Avoid Most of the Time (almost 0% of your daily dietary intake)

1. Processed, Refined and Genetically Modified Carbohydrates

Products containing wheat or wheat flour, including: bread, bagels, breakfast cereals, pasta, crackers, and beer
Sugar and artificial sweeteners
Sugar or sweetened beverages, including: soda, diet sodas, and fruit juices
White rice
Corn and soy containing products
Cheese (processed cheese only)
Lunch meats
Margarine
Processed oils, including: vegetable and corn oils

Foods to Eat Less Often (<10% of your daily dietary intake)

1. Root Vegetables

Potatoes
Yams
Beets

2. Unprocessed Grains

Quinoa
Barley
Buckwheat
Spelt
Rye
Black rice

3. Bananas and Grapes

Foods to Eat More Of (>90% of your dietary intake)

1. Vegetables (grown above the ground) – high in fibre!

2. Legumes and Lentils – high in fibre!

3. Fruits – high in fibre when eaten with the skin!


Berries
Cherries
Apples
Pears
Avocados – high in natural fat!

3. Nuts, Nut Butters and Seeds – high in natural fat!

Almonds, walnuts, pine nuts, and Brazil nuts are among the healthiest
Peanuts are actually legumes and not nuts, but they are a great source of natural fat and protein
Nut butters should be organic

4. Meat, poultry and Fish – high in natural fat!

5. Eggs – high in natural fat!

6. Butter – high in natural fat!

7. Unprocessed oils, including: coconut oil, olive oil and avocado oil – high in natural fat!
http://intensivedietarymanagement.c...-index-idm-2-2/


Legumes, lentils and fruit included on the 90% list is not compatible with low carb thinking, but it meshes with my own experience. It also meshes with some of the vegetarian and naturopathic advice that many people claim works for them.

When I was first diagnosed with diabetes, I knew I would eat low carb but I was also curious about what others were saying and found books and followers of higher carb diets who were also claiming success. One book I read was the naturopath Michael Murray as I've found him sensible and helpful in the past. But then I figured those plans were probably for people with less advanced diabetes. But certainly Dr. Fung's patients, as included on his blog, sound quite advanced yet he's obviously not sweating the details about "what to eat" in terms of lowest carb.

If it's not blood sugar and low carb per se that is important, but instead insulin resistance and the important of fiber as an "antidote" as Dr. Fung says to the "poison" of high glycemic food, than it would make sense that people could do well on a diabetic diet that included relatively high carb plant foods if they also include high fiber.

After all, people have been eating potatoes, beans, fruits, etc for generations without become diabetic in the great numbers we see now. He says:

Quote:
Because insulin is the main driver of obesity and diabetes, anything that tends to reduce insulin is beneficial. In essence, fibre acts as a sort of ‘antidote’ to the carbohydrate (poison).

This works out great, because virtually all plant foods, in their natural, unrefined state contain varying degrees of fibre! Nature has pre-packaged the poison with the antidote. Dietary protein and fat do not usually contain fibre because you do not need the antidote if you do not take the poison. ...

The toxicity does not lie in the food, the toxicity lies in the processing.
(his emphasis) http://intensivedietarymanagement.c...l-obesity-xvii/
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  #39   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 06:40
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JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 2,153
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
There is little on the Insulin Index, and some have already dismissed it as an expected reaction to high protein and glucagon (Guyenet), but the GIP and GLP-1 add another twist that makes more sense as to why timing would also improve BG.


That guy! Again, a fly in the ointment. I don't have the background to ever fully understand the science but try to apply what I think I understand to my experience and this makes a lot of sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100

1T chia did nothing for me in controlling hunger on the fast day, yet I like it in a coconut cream pudding as a dessert on an eating day.


Recipe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
1T CO does seem to help me all day with controlling hunger. For the dairy is Insulinotropic reason you mention, I have only been using coconut cream or almond milk in coffee and tea. Yesterday I had a Cinnamon flavored tea with extra cinnamon and splash of vanilla almond milk...tasty chai-like drink and had that "hot meal" effect.


I'm going to take the CO today. That drink sounds tasty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
So I too am still gathering the ingredients to make bone broth myself, though Liz suggested buying chicken feet...just can't get to that point to cook feet Sorry to hear about your Carbland home, maybe you could take over all the shopping. My DH is low Carb by default, or as someone called it here, collateral low carb.


I hear ya on the feet! My mother would go along with me on my style eating and in fact when I decided to move in here I thought it would be just the two of us and then my brother decided to move in too, something he said he would never do. Probably because I'm now around to take care of her. He's an alcoholic and when he's not drinking, he's heavily hitting the carbs. He's not insensitive to my diet but somewhat defensive about his own so taking over the shopping is not something I can do. Tonight they are having spaghetti with Ragu sauce, for instance. I didn't eat Ragu even before I started low carbing because it's so sweet. Fortunately for her, my mother seems to have the metabolism of a teenager. But as she tartly pointed out to me yesterday, diabetes is not on her side of the family.
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  #40   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 07:54
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Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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Good morning from the west coast - you two are such early birds! Thanks for posting that list of foods, JLx, it's great to have everything here in one place.

On the chicken feet, not sure I recommend them….I just saw them at Whole Foods and commented on them to the guy stocking the shelves. He told me he can't keep them in stock and they make The Best Broth. With that recommendation, I had to buy a package. It made good broth, but no better from broth made from a carcass. I wonder how much experience his customers have making their own broth - I'm guessing not much. It was also a little disconcerting watching the progress of the broth. The feet never broke down, never got past their "foot-ness". They made a pretty lean broth and perhaps that is what others found attractive. I doubt I will seek them out again.

On the tea, I've been drinking with 1 tsp per cup, three cups per day. I wondered about why he allowed cream as well, but I like HWC, find it infinitely more satisfying than almond milk or coconut cream or CO so I will stick with it until I figure out it is causing some adverse reaction. That said, I used to drink 4 cups of tea per day and am now subbing 1 or 2 of them with an herbal tea without cream. Progress…

I'm very pleased with how easy it was to fast yesterday and look forward to doing it again tomorrow. Interesting that you no longer want 3 meals on eating days, Janet. I was actually considering eating late breakfast and early dinner in perhaps a 6 hour window (10 and 4?) and seeing how that goes. But I think I will ease into that.

As for the insulin index, I remember Lustig talking about glucose and insulin response on a local California PBS radio show (I've long since lost my link). He was asked if we should just avoid carbs, and he said no, that branch-chained amino acids were something else to be concerned with, but he did not go into any detail. That was the first time I'd heard of BCAAs in a negative light - till then it was something to seek out in protein powders. Anyway, it makes me wonder if we can look for an update on insulin reaction from Lustig or any of his fellow researchers in California…..it seems we need much more if this is the key to really controlling diabetes.
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  #41   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 07:59
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLx

I wondered about his guidelines if he meant 1 TB of chia seeds per day? And 1 TB of coconut oil per day? I was actually a little surprised to see him say 1 TB of cream per cup of coffee with no restrictions on the number of cups. Cream has felt to be insulinogenic to me in the past (as opposed to other fat such as coconut oil). I don't drink coffee anyway but was just wondering.


I got the impression you could eat 1 T of coconut oil a few times a day, up to 1 T of coconut oil in each cup of coffee or tea. I only wanted it once yesterday but would have eaten more if my hunger had escalated. I wonder if he felt he had to limit the CO due to the bulletproof coffee craze where some people drop 1/2 a stick of butter in a cup of coffee.
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  #42   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 09:53
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,103
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Liz, I stopped reading at your “FOOT-NESS” comment, had the last drumstick with my brunch, and started a carcass only Bone Broth! We had an organic but not pasture -raised whole chicken a few days ago. First time I made one Spatchcocked...Moist, evenly cooked, nice crisp skin, and quicker than roasting the whole bird. Easy and you start off your bone bag with the entire back bone. The recipe Michele Tam has on her app is slightly different than this one on her website, http://nomnompaleo.com/post/3357418...st-chicken-ever Not on vegetables, but merely laid out on a wire rack, brushed with melted butter and sprinkled with a coarse salt and pepper mix, 400 degrees for 45 minutes, the cutting and butterflying method is the same.

JL, I use to buy the Harney & Sons Hot Cinnamon Spice tea, but Celestial Seasonings Bengal Spice is close and you can get that almost anywhere.

Chia Pudding, first read about Chia here and made the chocolate version of this one, without all that stevia. http://healthylivinghowto.com/1/pos...chia-seeds.html
To up the fat, now I use a can of full-fat Thai Kitchen Coconut Milk, 1/4 c. Chia seed, 1tsp vanilla, a few Tablespoons of cocoa powder, and stevia extract to taste. I shake it up in a Rubbermaid lidded container a few times and let the chia absorb liquid. In the fridge it will firm up. Chia seed in Lemon water was yucky, right up there with chicken feet
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  #43   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 10:27
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Liz, I stopped reading at your “FOOT-NESS” comment,


Just trying to embrace the Head to Foot style of eating animals….guess I'll have to switch from Neck to Ankles.

That chicken recipe sounds DE-lish. Will try it next time. I do love being able to put the carcass to work. I hope it's OK to drink bone broth on non-fast days because it's pretty darn tasty.
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  #44   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 11:16
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,103
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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We have all been waiting anxiously for Hormonal Obesity Part XXII, The Incretin Effect! Dig in: http://intensivedietarymanagement.com/incretin-effect
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  #45   ^
Old Tue, Jul-22-14, 11:24
Sereen Sereen is offline
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Plan: Zero
Stats: 95/95/95 Female 50
BF:0
Progress: 36%
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I Dr. Fung's lectures.
Thanks Janet!
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