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  #16   ^
Old Wed, Jul-16-14, 06:50
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,104
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Don't have the book, but the recipe on his other website includes what goes in which layer. http://drhyman.com/blog/2013/11/14/...cups/#openModal For someone who want to try Dr. Fung's program, I took his directions literally…no sweeteners of any kind on fasting day, so the honey would be out.

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Jul-16-14 at 07:06.
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  #17   ^
Old Wed, Jul-16-14, 08:25
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoMac53
Sorry if this is a little off topic but I did a search for Dr. Hyman's book ("The Blood Sugar Solution") and found his website and his "Double Peanut Butter Chocolate Cups" recipe http://www.bloodsugarsolution.com/2...chocolate-cups/ but I'm confused by the list of ingredients and the instructions not saying which ones go to which layer in the recipe. I just wanted to ask if anyone has the book that has this recipe in it and is it any more clear in the book? Or does anyone just know from experience making this recipe? Thank you and I now return you to your regularly scheduled topic.


Not off topic at all. I just looked in the index and could not find that recipe. I find his website annoying. In the book he refers to the website for a complete list of early phase vegetables yet I could find no such list on the website. Every link seems to lead to something to purchase. Perhaps I must register to get access to promised information, but how to do that was not obvious to me.

I speed read the book yesterday and now I remember why I couldn't find the time to read it carefully when it came out. It is full of contradictions. Yes, he says to stay away from sugar and yet honey is listed in the ingredients. Yes, he says to eat fat, and to eat generally Paleo, but it's mostly olive oil and other vegetable oils - including sunflower oil! And all the recipes are quite low fat (1 T olive oil for 4 servings for instance).

He seems to be trying to straddle ADA guidelines and the fact that fat does not appreciably raise blood glucose or insulin AND The China Study. He says to have red meat only 1-2 times per week, and yet he tells me to buy a 1/2 lamb and put it in my freezer.

And it gets worse. He also says to emphasize vegetable proteins and says that "A meat eater driving a Prius does more damage to the environment than a vegan driving a Hummer." At the end in his acknowledgments, top of the list among the professionals are Dean Ornish and Dr Oz. Sheesh.

It looks like I will be taking Dr Fung's ideas on timing of food and continue eating LC, perhaps with added vegetables and low sugar fruits, depending on how I tolerate them.
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  #18   ^
Old Wed, Jul-16-14, 08:29
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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oops, never mind. post deleted.
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  #19   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-14, 07:24
JoMac53 JoMac53 is offline
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Plan: Bernstein
Stats: 223/137/124 Female 5'4"
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Progress: 87%
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Thank you for the link, Janet, and thank you for the review, Liz. I eat to my meter and take everything & everyone else with a grain of salt, as I find contradictions or commercialization or some other kind of problem with everyone. Edited to add: I don't even use honey and will be subbing that, anyway.
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  #20   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-14, 07:36
JoMac53 JoMac53 is offline
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Posts: 23
 
Plan: Bernstein
Stats: 223/137/124 Female 5'4"
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Progress: 87%
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Uh-oh! The ingredients are exactly the same for the top & bottom layer except for the cocoa...which is listed as being in the "top layer" but the picture shows the chocolate on the bottom. Am I missing something? LOL
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  #21   ^
Old Thu, Jul-17-14, 07:54
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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I thought the same thing too JoMac (that's what my deleted post was about) but in fact the bottom layer has one more ingredient - chocolate? cocoa? I'm too lazy to check! It's a very odd way to write a recipe.
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  #22   ^
Old Fri, Jul-18-14, 05:22
JoMac53 JoMac53 is offline
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Posts: 23
 
Plan: Bernstein
Stats: 223/137/124 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 87%
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Yes, very odd. The recipe says to put the cocoa in the *top* layer but the picture shows the *bottom* layer being chocolate. I made it and put the cocoa in the bottom layer instead, and it came out really, really delicious! I subbed Swerve for the honey and got 12 servings so the nutritional info is different and I haven't figured that out but it will be lower carbs. It makes a good fat bomb as it's low in protein and carbs & high in fat. The texture is more like fudge than a real peanut butter cup. I think next time (and there WILL be a next time! lol) I'll use a grittier peanut butter.
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  #23   ^
Old Fri, Jul-18-14, 12:03
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,104
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Chocolate crisis averted (those do sound good Jo) So back on topic. JustJo asked on another thread about snacking, slowing metabolism, etc. Rather than slogging through the lecture format, I found this blog post on snacking and insulin levels. http://intensivedietarymanagement.c...l-obesity-xiii/ Previous post linked within it. "Meal timing" in the topic list on right bar includes others. Under patient resources, there is an option for a 24 hour fast every day, i.e. One meal a day. (not for me!) But a two week update from me: fasting does get easier, no snacking at all everyday is OK too. Today an eating day, I had a late breakfast after exercise so it will only be two meals. Slow improvements in BG are being seen.
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  #24   ^
Old Fri, Jul-18-14, 17:22
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JLx JLx is offline
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Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Janet, thanks so much for posting about this site.

I really liked this lecture: Insulin Toxicity and How to Cure Type II Diabetes http://intensivedietarymanagement.c...ype-2-diabetes/ There are some people who say, "Well, if you have diabetes, it means you can't produce enough insulin yourself internally so you take it externally - no big deal". The trouble it that it usually doesn't end there because, as he explained, it's not only just treating a symptom, but actually making the underlying disease of insulin toxicity worse.

I just watched this lecture too: http://intensivedietarymanagement.c...ure-series-iii/ He mentions The Paleo Diet by Loren Cordain as well as Hyman's principles of basically avoiding processed foods, HFCS and other ideas familiar to low carbers as "what to eat". Also:

Quote:
FOODS TO EMPHASIZE

BLUEBERRIES

AVOCADO

CHIA SEEDS

FLAX SEED

FIBER

SPICES

OLIVE OIL

CINNAMON

EGGS

CHERRIES

VINEGAR -- IMPROVES INSULIN SENSITIVITY, INCREASES SATIETY, IS CARDIOPROTECTIVE

NUTS AND NUT BUTTERS



I was a little surprised to see cherries on that list. They really shoot my blood sugar if I eat more than a few and I can never eat just a few.

I wish there was more information on insulinogenic foods. I was pleasantly surprised to see my beloved peanuts on the lower-than-eggs-even side. I guess that explains why they always seemed to aid my weight loss despite the many cautions against them.
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  #25   ^
Old Sat, Jul-19-14, 03:24
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,104
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Lucky you, I can't eat cherries anymore due to an "oral allergy". Some of my life-threatening food allergies have disappeared, but certain apples, cherries for sure and a few stone fruits, have morphed into swollen lips and mouth if ingested raw...though usually cooked it OK. My body is so sensitive and weird, sigh As I remember on peanuts is not the carbs, but the lectins and aflatoxin mold. Interesting you find them helpful for weight loss...Mark Sisson recently recommended pistachios for prebiotic support for gut bacteria and they are self-limiting with the extra work like shelled peanuts. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/16-t.../#axzz37qyvIdKk

Anyway so glad you liked his lectures, I am really enjoying all of them and reading back through his every blog post. Maybe it is just that it is a new twist of meal timing throw into the low carb mix, and the novelty of it is appealing, but I am doing well and enjoy testing different timings. Having a difficult time with the vinegar though! I can hack 1T in 1c water right before dinner, followed with food, usually including a large salad with oil and vinegar dressing. But 2T in 2c at bedtime burned my throat, yuck. Can't imagine knocking it back straight.

Good to see your recommendation of that lunch lecture, I thought his explanations of why giving insulin to a T2 is "toxic" was brilliant, though a bit scary for anyone in treatment or those doctors prescribing that treatment. Maybe I need to listen to it again on the computer to have more control over the sound balance than the iPad to mute the distracting dishes.

Last edited by JEY100 : Sat, Jul-19-14 at 04:11.
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  #26   ^
Old Sun, Jul-20-14, 07:48
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,104
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Found another list of foods under this article on the Glycemic Index. Titled Our Dietary Index, it lists foods by what % they should make up your diet. Cherries are encouraged due to having High Fiber, peanuts due to natural fats and protein.

http://intensivedietarymanagement.c...-index-idm-2-2/
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  #27   ^
Old Sun, Jul-20-14, 14:15
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JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 2,153
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
As I remember on peanuts is not the carbs, but the lectins and aflatoxin mold. Interesting you find them helpful for weight loss...


I know those are the drawbacks, along with the carbs but I know I will never eat according to all the various rules, and I enjoy the peanuts for the salty crunch. I love the extra crunchy ones from Costco and find them very satisfying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Anyway so glad you liked his lectures, I am really enjoying all of them and reading back through his every blog post. Maybe it is just that it is a new twist of meal timing throw into the low carb mix, and the novelty of it is appealing, but I am doing well and enjoy testing different timings. Having a difficult time with the vinegar though!


I plan to read all the blog posts too. I've watched most of the lectures, skipped the ones like on "fat phobia" where I feel already familiar. I am really intrigued by the fasting increasing insulin sensitivity. I know some people seem to have a lot of success with the up day/down day concept for weight loss and some diabetics here have said they do intermittent fasting, but I've not tried either before. I found his discussion of how it does not slow down metabolism to be intriguing. In my experience, however, in not eating for a few days for whatever reason I've not lost weight, so perhaps the secret really is in the intermittent aspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
I can hack 1T in 1c water right before dinner, followed with food, usually including a large salad with oil and vinegar dressing. But 2T in 2c at bedtime burned my throat, yuck. Can't imagine knocking it back straight.


I'm surprised he didn't say more about the vinegar. My understanding is that it's inadvisable to take straight, that using a straw is best and not brushing teeth afterwards is all important as the acid is damaging to teeth enamel otherwise.

I did the vinegar thing with some regularity during a weight loss regimen but I wasn't sure if it was worth it. I haven't tried it again yet. I'm fasting today. So far, so good. My goal is 36 hours.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Good to see your recommendation of that lunch lecture, I thought his explanations of why giving insulin to a T2 is "toxic" was brilliant, though a bit scary for anyone in treatment or those doctors prescribing that treatment. Maybe I need to listen to it again on the computer to have more control over the sound balance than the iPad to mute the distracting dishes.


I got the impression that he was speaking to other doctors there and would have loved to hear the Q & A afterwards. I heard someone say at one point something about his ideas putting them out of business and someone else said something else and they all laughed. I figured he said something like, "Most patients won't do it anyway". But if the alternative is a progressive disease that will eventually kill you early with the possibility of some very disagreeable complications like blindness along the way, they should give them a chance.

I find a very low carb diet as Bernstein recommends very hard to stick to. In contrast, Dr. Fung's recommendations do not seem especially low carb. The Blood Sugar Solution book he refers to recommends "slow carbs, not low carbs". Looking at the BSS cookbook, they're too high, imo, but if the issue is the insulinogenic foods versus lowest carb foods, then that would account for the fact that some diabetics do succeed quite well on higher carb diets than Bernstein's guidelines.

I like the fact that some fruits are on Dr. Fung's list and that in general, they weren't as insulinogenic as something like whey protein, which would be considered ok because it IS low carb. This matches my experience, as does most of what he's said actually such as the benefit of fiber too. I have to part company with him regarding artificial sweeteners, sugar alcohols specifically, though, at least in regard to erythritol. I've tested my blood sugar a lot after eating food sweetened with Swerve and have not seen a rise later.

I don't eat grains now and don't plan to, but I notice "black rice" is on his list as "Foods to Eat Less Often (<10% of your daily dietary intake)" and I may explore that as I've never even heard of it before. I drifted away from some previous reading and experimenting with resistant starch but am getting back to it again. I notice more and more low carb bloggers seem to be getting on board now, such as Dr. Davis. http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2014/...ed-bowel-flora/

I used to have serious hay fever type allergies and all I did different was take probiotics. It took a while but they are rarely a problem today. In contrast, people who eat very low carb as I have observed reading lc boards, seem to develop more and more allergies as they go along, to food especially. I've also heard that ALL of Dr. Bernstein's patients (by his own admission allegedly) have autoimmune diseases, some quite serious. I already have Hashimoto's disease and currently have no food sensitivities (except sugar! ) so I don't want to make things worse from lack of a healthy gut microbiome. Some of the choices on Dr. Fung's list, such as the beans, have resistant starch which may increase insulin sensitivity itself. One study: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/3/559.full

Thanks again for the links! I really needed something new to get going on right now as I've been floundering for way too long.
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  #28   ^
Old Sun, Jul-20-14, 18:39
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JLx JLx is offline
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Posts: 2,153
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 235/203/191 Female 66
BF:Hi wt: 276,255,235
Progress: 73%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Some interesting excerpts from the Hormonal Obesity Theory of Dr. Fung:

Quote:
One of the keys to high insulin levels lies in insulin resistance. To start the Hormonal Obesity series – click here. http://intensivedietarymanagement.c...onal-obesity-1/

Insulin resistance leads to high insulin levels. It also appears that high levels of insulin also leads to insulin resistance in a vicious cycle. How does the body normally defend against insulin resistance?

High levels of hormone by themselves cannot cause resistance. After all, think about the previous post’s experiment with constant infusions of physiologic levels of insulin. You might ask yourself this question. If normal levels of insulin can cause insulin resistance, why don’t we all eventually develop insulin resistance?

The answer lies in how hormones are secreted in the body. Hormones are always always always secreted in a pulsatile fashion. Always. Whether we are talking about cortisol, insulin, growth hormone, parathyroid hormone or any other hormone in the human body, they are released in pulses. ...

Most of the time, hormone levels are low. Every so often, a brief pulse of hormone (thyroid, parathyroid, growth, insulin – whatever) comes along. After it passes, levels are very low again.

By cycling low and high levels, the body never gets a chance to adapt. There is never a chance to develop the resistance because the pulse of hormone is gone before this develops. ...

The circadian pulses of insulin prevents the development of insulin resistance. However, the situation changes when we are constantly exposed to insulin. ...

In the normal state insulin is released only occasionally, and this prevents the development of resistance. ...

Over time, the insulin resistance leads to higher insulin levels to ‘overcome’ this resistance. High levels alone do not lead to resistance. There are 2 requirements for resistance – high hormonal levels and constant stimulus. ...

A question often comes up here. If all cells are resistant to the effect of the insulin, then the higher level of insulin should have no effect overall. The answer is that insulin has different effects on different parts of the body – the main parts being the muscle, the liver and the brain. Each part has a certain sensitivity or resistance to insulin, and this does not affect the other.

Exercise, for instance will increase the sensitivity of muscles to insulin but has no effect on insulin sensitivity in the liver or brain. Hepatic (liver) insulin resistance which develops from fatty liver does not affect insulin resistance in the brain or muscle. When we ingest excess carbohydrates, we develop hepatic insulin resistance. This increases the overall insulin levels. However, the brain has normal insulin sensitivity.

In the brain, we have increased insulin levels acting on normally sensitive receptors resulting in an increased insulin effect. The effect is to increase the body set weight which will cause you to gain fat. Ultimately, it is the brain which ties together all the effects of hunger and energy expenditure. That is how we gain weight. http://intensivedietarymanagement.c...al-obesity-xii/


Quote:
Insulin resistance requires 2 things.

1. High levels – a low fat, high carbohydrate diet – leads to high insulin levels (What to Eat)

2. Persistance of levels – eating all the time (When to Eat)

It turns out that weight gain depends on both equally. It turns out that it is no more complicated than this – “If you eat all the time, you will gain weight”. The dietary changes we have made since the 1970s have thoroughly prepared us for insulin resistance. This, of course leads exactly to diabesity.

The answers, then are really very simple. Eat 3 meals a day. No snacking. Eat at a table for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Do not eat anywhere else. There are only 2 things to be fixed here. What to Eat. When to Eat. http://intensivedietarymanagement.c...l-obesity-xiii/


Other than in Bernstein's book, the "when to eat" seems to be often overlooked, with respect to obesity if not diabetes. Eating too frequently has been one of my downfalls, especially back in the day.

My mother is 88, not diabetic or obese and eats sugar, bread, processed foods but one thing she does do is not snack. She eats regular meals by the clock and the sweets and stuff are not to excess. Dr. Fung made the point in a later part of the series that people back in the 60s and early 70s ate bread and Oreos but they had regular meals that alternated them equally between the "fed state (insulin dominant)" and the "fasted state (insulin deficient)" and despite what they were eating because of when they were eating it, they did not develop insulin resistance and subsequent diabesity.

Now everyone is advised to eat more small meals, diabetics especially in what again is the exact wrong advice. I think that even as a low carber sometimes I have been guilty of eating too often (despite knowing better, of course).
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  #29   ^
Old Mon, Jul-21-14, 04:42
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,104
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Completely agree with your last post. I might have been allowed a small snack after coming home from school, but always admonished that anything more than a piece of fruit would ruin my dinner. We just did not snack often "back in the day".

I have no plans yet to stretch fasting beyond his 24 hour alternate day plan. I am comfortable doing that, not hungry, and because I eat dinner every night, my husband hasn't noticed. Though it was close when he saw me take a pre-dinner BG, and asked the number (why now?) "In the 70s, ...isn't that really good for you, what are you doing differently?" and I changed the subject.

Thanks for the straw tip, I really am "forgetting" the vinegar part often I find it so unpleasant. Maybe that will help.
I've wondered too about his allowed legumes and other starches providing the resistant starch that others have found beneficial. I'd rather add some with real food than potato starch. Trying to keep the number of variables with this "experiment" manageable, so maybe after another week of this basic plan, I'll change up the foods too.

My food allergies morphed into some oral allergies about 10 years ago, so long before vegetarian and low carb years. No hayfever now either! Avoiding apples and cherries is a small price to pay for not having to deal with that each spring and fall.
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  #30   ^
Old Mon, Jul-21-14, 09:08
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
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JLx, thanks for highlighting what I think is the most important part of Fung's plan as well. Those are some great quotes. I went back and read several of his later blogposts last night that followed up on that one.

I started following his plan a little over a week ago and did 2 days of fasting last week. I was only able to manage about 20 hours without food, but still shed a bit over 4 lbs in 5 days. Guests arrived Thursday and I ate "freely" (but still within a low carb framework). I gained back 2.5 lbs in 4 days, but still I kept almost 2 off. That's a victory for me. And I'm back to fasting today.

My husband's been out of town the past couple of weeks so it's been easy to make meals fit MY schedule, but he's interested in trying it too. He has high blood pressure, which seems to run in his family, and is anxious to see if fasting will help that. That said, his grandmother died at 92 with untreated hypertension. They had a cow when she checked into the hospital with a broken hip and very high blood pressure, but she'd lived that way for many many years. In the end, it was the hip that broke her spirit and led to her death.

I watched Dr Fung's video on salt (part 8 of the aetiology of obesity)last night and to my surprise (sort of), higher salt consumption is correlated with lower mortality. It was interesting to see how he analyzed the data to show bias in CW advice to lower salt. I'm so impressed with the depth of his thinking and so happy that Janet found him and brought him to my attention.

Last summer I got within 3 lbs of my goal weight for the first time in maybe 25 years. I ate low carb + low cal, and I also eliminated snacks, not a natural pattern for me. I'm hoping I can do the same this year relying more on timing and less on calorie restriction in order to keep metabolism up. Good luck to all of us!
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