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  #46   ^
Old Wed, Aug-07-13, 17:33
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akman at 12:01
good luck!

Last edited by akman : Today at 13:17. Reason: rudeness


I'm trying to figure out why you're golden flouncing on your own admittedly-controversial thread, but you edited this post well over an hour after you made it. Convenient that you make Teaser look like the bad guy when we have no idea what you initially said.
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  #47   ^
Old Wed, Aug-07-13, 18:51
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joel381 joel381 is offline
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Plan: Keto IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akman
A senior member askes me to leave...I leave. Good luck ya'all! Don't drown in your dogma!


You have been here for a couple years, your 1.5 & 2 year follow up posts were good.

I see that you did not get much interest in the potato diet back here, your earlier thread , but this thread caught my attention.

I would have never thought the potato was the resistant starch, figured this was a UCAN promo thread. This thread is pretty popular, the potato diet may not be an easy sell... May have to try it someday
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  #48   ^
Old Wed, Aug-07-13, 20:52
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Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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If the same diet worked for everybody, there would only need to be one diet book.
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  #49   ^
Old Wed, Aug-07-13, 21:19
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teaser teaser is offline
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I wrote in anger. I probably should have expressed this without actually telling akman to go away. I do think this is a conversation worth having. There are people who seem to do well on starchy diets. I don't think we really know why.

Nobody should go away just because I say so. I mean, who the heck am I?
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  #50   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-13, 08:23
Sagehill Sagehill is offline
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Well, this IS the war zone, after all. If all who disagreed went away, there would be no war zone... and life would be boring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akman
LC may be useful in losing weight over a couple months, but eventually you will need to include ample plant fiber and starch. Atkins had it right in adding back carbs, but many try to skip that part with endless induction. Most of the successful diets include some kind of cheat days designed to get fermentable substrate into the gut.
I have to say I do agree somewhat with this. I've been low-carbing over six years now, around 30-40 g per day, except in winter when I go literally crazy due to Michigan's bitter cold, doom and gloom and lack of serotonin. From September through February I usually gain back 10-30 lbs, so it's taking me much longer than it otherwise might have. Over the past six years I've lost around two hundred pounds... I should weigh only 65 lbs by now. lol

Last year I've finally gained some control, mostly through three rounds of HCG, and while I still gained some 15 lbs last winter, I didn't gain as much as I used to and so ended lower than I have before.

This May I did the potato hack for three weeks, broken by high-fat LC weekends, and lost nearly 20 pounds that got me into a range I haven't seen since 1980's. Though I was reluctant to try the PH-- after all, I was a confirmed low-carber, six years of LC training screamed, "No no no, all this starch will be disastrous!!"-- I was shocked how fast the weight dropped off... as quickly and easily as my first time with Atkins six years ago, with minimal hunger.

Plus the PH seems to have reset things, even going back to LC. My body temperature is higher, I sleep better and my mood is improved, but most surprising of all it's been very easy to maintain my losses so far, though I have yet to undergo this winter on higher carbs to see if that all remains true. But I have maintained my losses even eating out not especially LC, drinking wine and LC beer and all without being 100% strict the way I used to have to be on LC just to prevent regaining. A glass of wine or one beer used to cause a 1-2 lb gain the next day that took forever to ditch.

That said, I'm not pushing PH for everyone, nor planning to continue it for myself. Right now, I'm doing the raw dairy diet, mostly because I have a cow that's just freshened and three gallons of milk to get through every day, though I don't drink that much of course.

And guess what, that's working too... a pound a day.

I believe anything done too long stagnates the system and causes stalls, LC included. Stalls are demoralizing. People start doing the wrong thing, dropping carbs when they should be increasing them. The first five years I did all the LC tweaks from Kimkins to meat & eggs to fat fast, and while they worked for a while, weight usually rebounded over time, and definitely over the winter when body systems usually take a dive anyway.

Perhaps what really should be done is do the opposite from LC... eat high-carb/low-fat as in the potato hack for several weeks, drop some more weight, then return to LC.


ETA: By the way, my fasting blood glucose DROPPED while on the potato hack.
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  #51   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-13, 09:16
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joel381 joel381 is offline
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Plan: Keto IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagehill
Well, this IS the war zone, after all. If all who disagreed went away, there would be no war zone... and life would be boring.

I believe anything done too long stagnates the system and causes stalls, LC included. Stalls are demoralizing.

Perhaps what really should be done is do the opposite from LC... eat high-carb/low-fat as in the potato hack for several weeks, drop some more weight, then return to LC.


ETA: By the way, my fasting blood glucose DROPPED while on the potato hack.


Nice post, I am getting more entrigued by these mono-food diets... They seem to be a cure portion control, pretty easy to keep intake low on a boring diet. I too thought about the alternating between LCHF and HCLF, kind of like a CKD diet with a long extended refeed.

Now checking out the Potato Hack Diet...
Have a good day
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  #52   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-13, 11:05
akman akman is offline
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Plan: General Low Carb
Stats: 240/175/190 Male 5'11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kristine
I'm trying to figure out why you're golden flouncing on your own admittedly-controversial thread, but you edited this post well over an hour after you made it. Convenient that you make Teaser look like the bad guy when we have no idea what you initially said.


Not sure what golden flouncing means...



Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I wrote in anger. I probably should have expressed this without actually telling akman to go away. I do think this is a conversation worth having. There are people who seem to do well on starchy diets. I don't think we really know why.

Nobody should go away just because I say so. I mean, who the heck am I?


Well, OK. And you were justified in calling me out on what I had initially written to M. Levac. I should have posted it directly to his blog rather than here, which is why I deleted it.

I am always surprised when people react to a discussion on RS with anger. My reaction, and the reaction I hope for is more in the realm of 'hmmmm...sounds interesting, I'll have to check into that.'

RS really has nothing to do with a starchy diet. RS is not seen by the body as regular starch. In a calorie sense, regular starch is seen as 4kcal/g. RS is seen as about 2.5kcal/g, and all of that is fat calories. Eating 1TBS of pure RS is like eating 1/8 TBS of pure fat.

I'd bet if I did a search on this forum, I could find hundreds of discussions about probiotics, eating yogurt, sauerkraut, etc... for their healthy gut benefits. It's become a mainstream topic of conversation. But when I discuss RS as a prebiotic, people get up in arms--especially when I mention using raw potato starch, which has the highest RS content of any conventional food. This is the dogmatic thinking I am trying to challenge.

At this point, if I have piqued anyone's interest--go to your favorite search engine and type in "resistant starch prebiotic metabolism" or "resistant starch insulin sensitivity". The results from those two searches will somewhat highlight where I am coming from--the rabbit hole goes deeper and deeper as you follow the links! Many, many peer-reveiwed studies going back 30 years.
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  #53   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-13, 11:46
akman akman is offline
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Posts: 55
 
Plan: General Low Carb
Stats: 240/175/190 Male 5'11
BF:
Progress: 130%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagehill
Well, this IS the war zone, after all. If all who disagreed went away, there would be no war zone... and life would be boring.

I have to say I do agree somewhat with this. I've been low-carbing over six years now, around 30-40 g per day, except in winter when I go literally crazy due to Michigan's bitter cold, doom and gloom and lack of serotonin. From September through February I usually gain back 10-30 lbs, so it's taking me much longer than it otherwise might have. Over the past six years I've lost around two hundred pounds... I should weigh only 65 lbs by now. lol

Last year I've finally gained some control, mostly through three rounds of HCG, and while I still gained some 15 lbs last winter, I didn't gain as much as I used to and so ended lower than I have before.

This May I did the potato hack for three weeks, broken by high-fat LC weekends, and lost nearly 20 pounds that got me into a range I haven't seen since 1980's. Though I was reluctant to try the PH-- after all, I was a confirmed low-carber, six years of LC training screamed, "No no no, all this starch will be disastrous!!"-- I was shocked how fast the weight dropped off... as quickly and easily as my first time with Atkins six years ago, with minimal hunger.

Plus the PH seems to have reset things, even going back to LC. My body temperature is higher, I sleep better and my mood is improved, but most surprising of all it's been very easy to maintain my losses so far, though I have yet to undergo this winter on higher carbs to see if that all remains true. But I have maintained my losses even eating out not especially LC, drinking wine and LC beer and all without being 100% strict the way I used to have to be on LC just to prevent regaining. A glass of wine or one beer used to cause a 1-2 lb gain the next day that took forever to ditch.

That said, I'm not pushing PH for everyone, nor planning to continue it for myself. Right now, I'm doing the raw dairy diet, mostly because I have a cow that's just freshened and three gallons of milk to get through every day, though I don't drink that much of course.

And guess what, that's working too... a pound a day.

I believe anything done too long stagnates the system and causes stalls, LC included. Stalls are demoralizing. People start doing the wrong thing, dropping carbs when they should be increasing them. The first five years I did all the LC tweaks from Kimkins to meat & eggs to fat fast, and while they worked for a while, weight usually rebounded over time, and definitely over the winter when body systems usually take a dive anyway.

Perhaps what really should be done is do the opposite from LC... eat high-carb/low-fat as in the potato hack for several weeks, drop some more weight, then return to LC.


ETA: By the way, my fasting blood glucose DROPPED while on the potato hack.


One thing that helped me break the winter weight gain cycle was observing every animal that lives where it gets cold--they fatten up in summer and lean out in winter. That is my new modus operandi--I eat whatever is in season all summer long and don't worry about my weight. I also exercise more (pullups, pushups, sprints) and get outside as much as possible. When fall hits, I switch to more of a traditional LC diet with an intake of about 100-150g carbs mostly from potatoes and rice, and nearly zero from sugary fruits and sugars. In winter, I supplement with Vit D and do more steady state exercise like treadmill walking, snowshoeing, skiiing and lay off the heavy lifting type exercises.

Animals have a major change in gut flora from summer to winter which is why feeding a moose hay can kill it. The microbes that can digest hay are replaced with microbes that digest wood/twigs. Feeding them hay basically starves them to death.

In summer, I think that eating lots of seasonal fruit and veggies like watermelon, corn on the cob, strawberries, etc... provides good pro- and prebiotics for a healthy gut, then transitioning to a lower carb, higer fat diet and eating starches that have a high resistant starch content helps balance out any insulin resistance that leads to imbalanced fat storage in winter months.

A suggestion about the potato diet/hack: Do it only once a year, late fall/early winter, when potatoes are in season. Use it to lose up to 10 pounds of the weight you gained in summer eating healthy foods and then spend the rest of the winter eating a more seasonally appropriate diet.
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  #54   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-13, 11:47
akman akman is offline
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Posts: 55
 
Plan: General Low Carb
Stats: 240/175/190 Male 5'11
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Progress: 130%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joel381
Nice post, I am getting more entrigued by these mono-food diets... They seem to be a cure portion control, pretty easy to keep intake low on a boring diet. I too thought about the alternating between LCHF and HCLF, kind of like a CKD diet with a long extended refeed.

Now checking out the Potato Hack Diet...
Have a good day


If someone starts a potato hack thread, I'd be glad to join.
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  #55   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-13, 12:28
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,433
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
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Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akman
I'd bet if I did a search on this forum, I could find hundreds of discussions about probiotics, eating yogurt, sauerkraut, etc... for their healthy gut benefits. It's become a mainstream topic of conversation. But when I discuss RS as a prebiotic, people get up in arms--especially when I mention using raw potato starch, which has the highest RS content of any conventional food. This is the dogmatic thinking I am trying to challenge.

That's an interesting point. But you also said:
Quote:
RS really has nothing to do with a starchy diet. RS is not seen by the body as regular starch. In a calorie sense, regular starch is seen as 4kcal/g. RS is seen as about 2.5kcal/g, and all of that is fat calories. Eating 1TBS of pure RS is like eating 1/8 TBS of pure fat.

And that's an even more interesting point. You're saying you're trying to challenge the dogmatic thinking, but then you also say something that implies we could just eat fat directly instead of eating RS. Does the benefit come from RS directly, or does it come from the product of conversion, i.e. fat? Or, does it come from the elimination of the substrate through conversion, which could otherwise cause trouble down the line if it was not converted? You know, sort of low-carb where one part of the benefit comes directly from the carb restriction, but just for the gut.
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  #56   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-13, 13:05
akman akman is offline
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Posts: 55
 
Plan: General Low Carb
Stats: 240/175/190 Male 5'11
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Progress: 130%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
That's an interesting point. But you also said:

And that's an even more interesting point. You're saying you're trying to challenge the dogmatic thinking, but then you also say something that implies we could just eat fat directly instead of eating RS. Does the benefit come from RS directly, or does it come from the product of conversion, i.e. fat? Or, does it come from the elimination of the substrate through conversion, which could otherwise cause trouble down the line if it was not converted? You know, sort of low-carb where one part of the benefit comes directly from the carb restriction, but just for the gut.


When you eat RS--or any fermentable plant fiber--that is consumed by your gut flora, your gut flora excretes butyric acid, a short-chain fatty acid. This puts the SCFA into your large intestine where it is absorbed by your coloncytes (specialized cells that line the colon). Butyric acid, in the form of butyrate, is also found in butter and some other LC faves. However, eating butyrate is not the same as having your gut flora produce it. When you eat it, it gets 100% absorbed in the small intestine, as any other fat does.

For butyric acid to be of any use to your colonocytes, it must be produced by gut flora. A diet lacking RS, but with a bit of plant matter, will produce enough butyrate to keep our coloncytes somewhat fed.

Read more about butyrate at my favorite website: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butyrate?oldid=0

If you don't want to click it, it says:

Quote:
Butyrates are important as food for cells lining the mammalian colon (colonocytes). Without butyrates for energy, colon cells undergo autophagy (self digestion) and die.[1] Short-chain fatty acids, which include butyrate, are produced by beneficial colonic bacteria (probiotics) that feed on, or ferment prebiotics, which are plant products that contain adequate amounts of dietary fiber. These short-chain fatty acids benefit the colonocyte by increasing energy production,and cell proliferation and may protect against colon cancer.[2]

Butyrate is a major metabolite in colonic lumen arising from bacterial fermentation of dietary fiber and has been shown to be a critical mediator of the colonic inflammatory response. Butyrate possesses both preventive and therapeutic potential to counteract inflammation-mediated ulcerative colitis (UC) and colorectal cancer. One mechanism underlying butyrate function in suppression of colonic inflammation is inhibition of the IFN-γ/STAT1 signaling pathways at least partially through acting as a histone deacetylase (HDAC) inhibitor. While transient IFN-γ signaling is generally associated with normal host immune response, chronic IFN-γ signaling is often associated with chronic inflammation. It has been shown that Butyrate inhibits activity of HDAC1 that is bound to the Fas gene promoter in T cells, resulting in hyperacetylation of the Fas promoter and up-regulation of Fas receptor on the T cell surface.[3] It is thus suggested that Butyrate enhances apoptosis of T cells in the colonic tissue and thereby eliminates the source of inflammation (IFN-γ production).[4
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  #57   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-13, 13:31
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,433
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
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Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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That's all fine in theory, but I already see a major problem with it. Fatty acids can only be metabolized for fuel aerobically. This means oxygen. So where do these colonocytes get their oxygen? The obvious answer is they get it from the bloodstream, like every other cell in the body. If they get oxygen from the bloodstream, they can get glucose/FFAs/ketones just as easily from the same place. So what's all this about autophagy if they can't get butyrate from the colon directly?
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  #58   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-13, 14:34
akman akman is offline
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Posts: 55
 
Plan: General Low Carb
Stats: 240/175/190 Male 5'11
BF:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
That's all fine in theory, but I already see a major problem with it. Fatty acids can only be metabolized for fuel aerobically. This means oxygen. So where do these colonocytes get their oxygen? The obvious answer is they get it from the bloodstream, like every other cell in the body. If they get oxygen from the bloodstream, they can get glucose/FFAs/ketones just as easily from the same place. So what's all this about autophagy if they can't get butyrate from the colon directly?


This stuff is way above my paygrade! I just go by what the studies say, and they say that gut-flora-produced butyrate is the food source for coloncytes. If that is wrong, a lot of smart people are missing what you have pointed out.

On another note, this powerpoint presentation was given to the Texas Dietetic Association last year by the makers of Hi-Maize corn starch. If you ignore the obvious marketing of Hi-Maize and just flip through, it gives a lot of good info on RS from years of research.

http://www.eatrighttexas.org/fnce/f...HopeWarshaw.pdf
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  #59   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-13, 17:29
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 12,981
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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You can get something like ten percent of your daily energy needs from gut fermentation... since coloncytes are ground zero for this, I think it's plausible that that's where they get much of their energy.

Within the context of a high-carb diet--if they were getting their energy from the bloodstream instead of from fermentation, it seems highly likely that it might be glucose-intensive instead of short-fatty acid intensive. Akman, one of the papers you cited had cancer cells in a flask


Quote:
In the study, adenoma (S/RG/C2) cell line and carcinoma HT29 cell line were cultured in the standard growth medium (DMEM) with or without 25 mM glucose and 1mM sodium pyruvate. The effects of 4-day incubation with 0-10 mM sodium butyrate was evaluated by counting the attached cells and floating cells in the culture flask, the latter of which were considered as apoptotic cells. They reported that with the glucose-rich condition, butyrate showed inhibitory effect on cell growth and induced apoptosis (0.5 mM for both two cells), whereas with the glucose-depleted condition, low concentration of butyrate increased cell growth as shown by increased attached cell percentage (0.5 mM for S/RG/C2 and 0.5 and 2 mM for HT29). Therefore, the butyrate induced apoptosis effect is also dose-determined and influenced by the presence of other
energy alternatives.


These are levels of glucose that won't be seen in the human body. But still--having butyrate available as an alternate energy source fought cancer-in-a-flask. And context mattered--without the elevated glucose, butyrate was cancer promoting. (Maybe as simple as the cancer needing the energy to grow).

I seriously doubt that resistant starch is cancer promoting, understand that's not the point I'm making. But if its protective effect is due to inhibition of a high-glucose environment which these cells were never intended to be in, which seems at least plausible, it seems reasonable to question whether the benefits of butyric acid from fermentation will be as important to coloncytes if glucose appearance in the blood is markedly reduced in a ketogenic diet.
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  #60   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-13, 17:30
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 12,981
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Nice to see you're still here.
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