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  #46   ^
Old Sun, Jul-01-12, 08:38
Ken66 Ken66 is offline
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Default What Really Makes Us Fat

The New York Times | Sunday Review | The Opinion Pages
Opinion
What Really Makes Us Fat
By GARY TAUBES
Published: June 30, 2012

Quote:
A CALORIE is a calorie. This truism has been the foundation of nutritional wisdom and our beliefs about obesity since the 1960s.

What it means is that a calorie of protein will generate the same energy when metabolized in a living organism as a calorie of fat or carbohydrate. When talking about obesity or why we get fat, evoking the phrase “a calorie is a calorie” is almost invariably used to imply that what we eat is relatively unimportant. We get fat because we take in more calories than we expend; we get lean if we do the opposite. Anyone who tells you otherwise, by this logic, is trying to sell you something.

But not everyone buys this calorie argument, and the dispute erupted in full force again last week. The Journal of the American Medical Association published the results of a clinical trial by Dr. David Ludwig of Boston Children’s Hospital and his collaborators. While the media tended to treat the study as another diet trial — what should we eat to maintain weight loss? — it spoke to a far more fundamental issue: What actually causes obesity? Why do we get fat in the first place? Too many calories? Or something else?

The calorie-is-a-calorie notion dates to 1878, when the great German nutritionist Max Rubner established what he called the isodynamic law.

It was applied to obesity in the early 1900s by another German — Carl Von Noorden, who was of two minds on the subject. One of his theories suggested that common obesity was all about calories in minus calories out; another, that it was about how the body partitions those calories, either for energy or into storage.

This has been the core of the controversy ever since, and it’s never gone away. If obesity is a fuel-partitioning problem — a fat-storage defect — then the trigger becomes not the quantity of food available but the quality. Now carbohydrates in the diet become the prime suspects, especially refined and easily digestible carbohydrates (foods that have what’s called a high glycemic index) and sugars.

UNTIL the 1960s, carbohydrates were indeed considered a likely suspect in obesity: “Every woman knows that carbohydrate is fattening,” as two British dietitians began a 1963 British Journal of Nutrition article.

The obvious mechanism: carbohydrates stimulate secretion of the hormone insulin, which works, among other things, to store fat in our fat cells. At the time, though, the conventional wisdom was beginning its shift: obesity was becoming an energy issue.

Carbohydrates, with less than half the calories per gram as fat, were beginning their official transformation into heart-healthy diet foods. One reason we’ve been told since to eat low-fat, carbohydrate-rich diets is this expectation that they’ll keep us thin.

What was done by Dr. Ludwig’s team has never been done before. First they took obese subjects and effectively semi-starved them until they’d lost 10 to 15 percent of their weight. Such weight-reduced subjects are particularly susceptible to gaining the weight back. Their energy expenditure drops precipitously and they burn fewer calories than people who naturally weigh the same. This means they have to continually fight their hunger just to maintain their weight loss. The belief is that weight loss causes “metabolic adaptations,” which make it almost inevitable that the weight will return. Dr. Ludwig’s team then measured how many calories these weight-reduced subjects expended daily, and that’s how many they fed them. But now the subjects were rotated through three very different diets, one month for each. They ate the same amount of calories on all three, equal to what they were expending after their weight loss, but the nutrient composition of the diets was very different.

One diet was low-fat and thus high in carbohydrates. This was the diet we’re all advised to eat: whole grains, fruits, vegetables, lean sources of protein. One diet had a low glycemic index: fewer carbohydrates in total, and those that were included were slow to be digested — from beans, non-starchy vegetables and other minimally processed sources. The third diet was Atkins, which is very low in carbohydrates and high in fat and protein.

The results were remarkable. Put most simply, the fewer carbohydrates consumed, the more energy these weight-reduced people expended. On the very low-carbohydrate Atkins diet, there was virtually no metabolic adaptation to the weight loss. These subjects expended, on average, only 100 fewer calories a day than they did at their full weights. Eight of the 21 subjects expended more than they did at their full weights — the opposite of the predicted metabolic compensation.

On the very low-carbohydrate diet, Dr. Ludwig’s subjects expended 300 more calories a day than they did on the low-fat diet and 150 calories more than on the low-glycemic-index diet. As Dr. Ludwig explained, when the subjects were eating low-fat diets, they’d have to add an hour of moderate-intensity physical activity each day to expend as much energy as they would effortlessly on the very-low-carb diet. And this while consuming the same amount of calories. If the physical activity made them hungrier — a likely assumption — maintaining weight on the low-fat, high-carb diet would be even harder. Why does this speak to the very cause of obesity? One way to think about this is to consider weight-reduced subjects as “pre-obese.” They’re almost assuredly going to get fatter, and so they can be research stand-ins — perhaps the best we have — for those of us who are merely predisposed to get fat but haven’t done so yet and might take a few years or decades longer to do it.

If we think of Dr. Ludwig’s subjects as pre-obese, then the study tells us that the nutrient composition of the diet can trigger the predisposition to get fat, independent of the calories consumed. The fewer carbohydrates we eat, the more easily we remain lean. The more carbohydrates, the more difficult. In other words, carbohydrates are fattening, and obesity is a fat-storage defect. What matters, then, is the quantity and quality of carbohydrates we consume and their effect on insulin.

From this perspective, the trial suggests that among the bad decisions we can make to maintain our weight is exactly what the government and medical organizations like the American Heart Association have been telling us to do: eat low-fat, carbohydrate-rich diets, even if those diets include whole grains and fruits and vegetables.

A controversial conclusion? Absolutely, and Dr. Ludwig’s results are by no means ironclad. The diets should be fed for far longer than one month, something he hopes to do in a follow-up study. As in any science, these experiments should be replicated by independent investigators. We’ve been arguing about this for over a century. Let’s put it to rest with more good science. The public health implications are enormous.

Gary Taubes is The author of “Why We Get Fat.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/o...kes-us-fat.html
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  #47   ^
Old Sun, Jul-01-12, 15:23
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ICDogg ICDogg is offline
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My father saw the Taubes op-ed, apparently. He told me on the phone today that there was an article in the Times that confirms what I was telling him months ago about carbs being more important than calories.
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  #48   ^
Old Sun, Jul-01-12, 17:36
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Judynyc Judynyc is offline
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ludwig
“The ‘Atkins’ diet gives you the biggest metabolic benefit initially, but there are long-term downsides, and in practice, people have trouble sticking to low-carb diets. Over the long term, the low-glycemic diet appears to work the best, because you don’t have to eliminate an entire class of nutrients, which our research suggests is not only hard from a psychological perspective but may be wrong from a biological perspective.”

Almost every diet, from the radical no-carb-at-all notions to the tame (and sane) “Healthy Eating Plate” from Harvard, agrees on at least this notion: reduce, or even come close to eliminating, the amount of hyper-processed carbohydrates in your diet, because, quite simply, they’re bad for you. And if you look at statistics, at least a quarter of our calories come from added sugars (seven percent from beverages alone), white flour, white rice, white pasta … are you seeing a pattern here? (Oh, and white potatoes. And beer.)

So what’s Ludwig’s overall advice? “It’s time to reacquaint ourselves with minimally processed carbs. If you take three servings of refined carbohydrates and substitute one of fruit, one of beans and one of nuts, you could eliminate 50 percent of diet-related disease in the United States. These relatively modest changes can provide great benefit.”
The message is pretty simple: unprocessed foods give you a better chance of idealizing your weight — and your health. Because all calories are not created equal.

I Dr Ludwig!
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  #49   ^
Old Sun, Jul-01-12, 19:07
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aj_cohn aj_cohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICDogg
My father saw the Taubes op-ed, apparently. He told me on the phone today that there was an article in the Times that confirms what I was telling him months ago about carbs being more important than calories.


I'd be clapping, except I suspect that Tara Parker-Pope will rebut Taubes soon in the NYT. I hope your Dad's head doesn't spin.

Last edited by aj_cohn : Mon, Jul-02-12 at 13:02.
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  #50   ^
Old Sun, Jul-01-12, 20:16
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ICDogg ICDogg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj_cohn
I'd be clapping, except I suspect that Tara Parker-Pope will rebut Taubes soon in the NYT. I hope your Dad' head doesn't spin.


Well, he's seen me lose over 90 lbs. (he's 82), but I think seeing it legitimized in the Times may have crossed him over into acceptance that there's something to it
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  #51   ^
Old Mon, Jul-02-12, 03:43
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JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Laura Dolson's article about this study:
http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/b/201...weight-loss.htm
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  #52   ^
Old Mon, Jul-02-12, 07:28
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Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Thanks for the link to Laura Dolson, Janet. I always like her analyses because she sticks to the facts. If she doesn't know WHY something happens, she says so.
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  #53   ^
Old Tue, Jul-03-12, 04:15
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JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Dr. Peter Attia delves into this report in his latest article at The Eating Academy, including the CRP results. Aptly titled, Good Science, Bad Interpretation?

http://eatingacademy.com/books-and-...interpretation?
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  #54   ^
Old Tue, Jul-03-12, 04:22
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RawNut RawNut is offline
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Dr. Rosedale's comments on the study also covering CRP and cortisol:

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012...-harvard-study/
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  #55   ^
Old Thu, Jul-05-12, 08:19
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kyrasdad kyrasdad is offline
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It is not surprising, but terribly disappointing, the way any positive low-carb news is spun and qualified, while the proven health disaster of low fat seems to get a complete pass.

Low fat is the default "healthy" way of eating. It doesn't seem to have a burden of proof attached the way low carb does. It skates by, leaving failure all around it. Low carb diets are too hard to stick to, they say. They don't mention that EVERY diet is hard to stick to. That low carb isn't more difficult than any other diet that restricts portions or macronutrients.

Stuff like this seems to be the thing that keeps us fat and unhealthy. I don't believe there is a massive conspiracy as such, but I do think that we are victims of group think and inertia of an idea that has practically become religion - that fatty foods are unhealthy, that they make you fat, that they cause cardiovascular disorders, that they cause cancer. The research doesn't support any of this, but belief is a strong thing.

Of course, there are interests who would be damaged if the government weaned itself away from grains and recommended a diet that was actually healthy. If that starts to happen, they will oppose it mightily.
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  #56   ^
Old Mon, Jul-09-12, 11:51
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Demi Demi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aj_cohn
I'd be clapping, except I suspect that Tara Parker-Pope will rebut Taubes soon in the NYT.
Does Gina Kolata count?


Quote:
From The NYTimes

In Dieting, Magic Isn’t a Substitute for Science

By GINA KOLATA
Published: July 9, 2012

Is a calorie really just a calorie? Do calories from a soda have the same effect on your waistline as an equivalent number from an apple or a piece of chicken?


For decades the question has percolated among researchers — not to mention dieters. It gained new momentum with a study published last month in The Journal of the American Medical Association suggesting that after losing weight, people on a high-fat, high-protein diet burned more calories than those eating more carbohydrates.

We asked Dr. Jules Hirsch, emeritus professor and emeritus physician in chief at Rockefeller University, who has been researching obesity for nearly 60 years, about the state of the research. Dr. Hirsch, who receives no money from pharmaceutical companies or the diet industry, wrote some of the classic papers describing why it is so hard to lose weight and why it usually comes back.

The JAMA study has gotten a lot of attention. Should people stay on diets that are high in fat and protein if they want to keep the weight off?

What they did in that study is they took 21 people and fed them a diet that made them lose about 10 to 20 percent of their weight. Then, after their weight had leveled off, they put the subjects on one of three different maintenance diets. One is very, very low in carbohydrates and high in fat, essentially the Atkins diet. Another is the opposite — high in carbohydrates, low in fat. The third is in between. Then they measured total energy expenditure — in calories burned — and resting energy expenditure.

They report that people on the Atkins diet were burning off more calories. Ergo, the diet is a good thing. Such low-carbohydrate diets usually give a more rapid initial weight loss than diets with the same amount of calories but with more carbohydrates. But when carbohydrate levels are low in a diet and fat content is high, people lose water. That can confuse attempts to measure energy output. The usual measurement is calories per unit of lean body mass — the part of the body that is not made up of fat. When water is lost, lean body mass goes down, and so calories per unit of lean body mass go up. It’s just arithmetic. There is no hocus-pocus, no advantage to the dieters. Only water, no fat, has been lost.

The paper did not provide information to know how the calculations were done, but this is a likely explanation for the result.

So the whole thing might have been an illusion? All that happened was the people temporarily lost water on the high-protein diets?

Perhaps the most important illusion is the belief that a calorie is not a calorie but depends on how much carbohydrates a person eats. There is an inflexible law of physics — energy taken in must exactly equal the number of calories leaving the system when fat storage is unchanged. Calories leave the system when food is used to fuel the body. To lower fat content — reduce obesity — one must reduce calories taken in, or increase the output by increasing activity, or both. This is true whether calories come from pumpkins or peanuts or pâté de foie gras.

To believe otherwise is to believe we can find a really good perpetual motion machine to solve our energy problems. It won’t work, and neither will changing the source of calories permit us to disobey the laws of science.

Did you ever ask whether people respond differently to diets of different compositions?

Dr. Rudolph Leibel, now an obesity researcher at Columbia University, and I took people who were of normal weight and had them live in the hospital, where we diddled with the number of calories we fed them so we could keep their weights absolutely constant, which is no easy thing. This was done with liquid diets of exactly known calorie content.

We kept the number of calories constant, always giving them the amount that should keep them at precisely the same weight. But we wildly changed the proportions of fats and carbohydrates. Some had practically no carbohydrates, and some had practically no fat.

What happened? Did people unexpectedly gain or lose weight when they had the same amount of calories but in a diet of a different composition?

No. There was zero difference between high-fat and low-fat diets.

Why is it so hard for people to lose weight?

What your body does is to sense the amount of energy it has available for emergencies and for daily use. The stored energy is the total amount of adipose tissue in your body. We now know that there are jillions of hormones that are always measuring the amount of fat you have. Your body guides you to eat more or less because of this sensing mechanism.

But if we have such a sensing mechanism, why are people fatter now than they used to be?

This wonderful sensing mechanism involves genetics and environmental factors, and it gets set early in life. It is not clear how much of the setting is done before birth and how much is done by food or other influences early in life. There are many possibilities, but we just don’t know.

So for many people, something happened early in life to set their sensing mechanism to demand more fat on their bodies?

Yes.

What would you tell someone who wanted to lose weight?

I would have them eat a lower-calorie diet. They should eat whatever they normally eat, but eat less. You must carefully measure this. Eat as little as you can get away with, and try to exercise more.

There is no magic diet, or even a moderately preferred diet?

No. Some diets are better or worse for medical reasons, but not for weight control. People come up with new diets all the time — like, why not eat pistachios at midnight when the moon is full? We have gone through so many of these diet possibilities. And yet people are always coming up to me with another one.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/10/h...-effective.html



That old chestnut:
Quote:
Only water, no fat, has been lost
So, according to Dr Hirsch I've lost 65lbs of water??!!
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  #57   ^
Old Mon, Jul-09-12, 12:21
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Seejay Seejay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrasdad
It is not surprising, but terribly disappointing, the way any positive low-carb news is spun and qualified, while the proven health disaster of low fat seems to get a complete pass.

Low fat is the default "healthy" way of eating. It doesn't seem to have a burden of proof attached the way low carb does. It skates by, leaving failure all around it. Low carb diets are too hard to stick to, they say. They don't mention that EVERY diet is hard to stick to. That low carb isn't more difficult than any other diet that restricts portions or macronutrients.

Stuff like this seems to be the thing that keeps us fat and unhealthy. I don't believe there is a massive conspiracy as such, but I do think that we are victims of group think and inertia of an idea that has practically become religion - that fatty foods are unhealthy, that they make you fat, that they cause cardiovascular disorders, that they cause cancer. The research doesn't support any of this, but belief is a strong thing.
I agree with you. It's amazing to be in a time like this. We are in a bad period of science history! There has not been such a destructive standard of practice since, I don't know, bloodletting, or doctors not washing hands, or dispensing Thalidomide, or irradiating babies' thymus for SIDS prevention (!!!)

It's just like what it must have been when science said the sun revolved around the earth - and the conventional belief said, no way. Or when it was suspected that doctors could be spreading childbed fever by not washing hands between patients - no way. Or that pellagra in the South was from removing sharecropper's own plots where they could grown their own - no way.

I was just thinking about this while listening to a young person spout "healthy whole grains and portion control" for weight loss.
She truly thinks it is supported by science and that all those governing bodies cannot be wrong.

If she knew that asking an MD for weight loss, is like when doctors didn't know to wash their hands, what a difference it might make.

I also see this in people who have not been interested in, or have not studied science.
They see science as trustworthy because it deals with facts that are observable and repeatable.
What untrained people do not realize is that even the facts are not so clear, and that humans must interpret the facts - and we humans bring all our human filters and behaviors to the party.

Hence the group think, the Key Opinion Leaders phenomenon, the willingness not to believe, all that stuff.

For my friend I just shook my head. There is sooooooo much stuff she doesn't know yet.

Last edited by Seejay : Mon, Jul-09-12 at 13:42.
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  #58   ^
Old Mon, Jul-09-12, 12:30
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Technology is outpacing our ability to use it wisely.
I bet you meant thymus irradiation, though.
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  #59   ^
Old Mon, Jul-09-12, 13:20
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Quote:
Perhaps the most important illusion is the belief that a calorie is not a calorie but depends on how much carbohydrates a person eats. There is an inflexible law of physics — energy taken in must exactly equal the number of calories leaving the system when fat storage is unchanged.

There is no such belief. Au contraire, we believe a calorie is a calorie, but we also believe not all sources of calories have the same effect on fat mass. Which brings me to my next rebuttal: There is another inflexible law of physics, following that first one, the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which says no system is perfect, or that not all kinds of conversions are equally efficient, which supports the belief that not all sources of calories have the same effect on fat mass, or on total mass, or any mass for that matter.

To illustrate, if indeed all the weight lost was water, then we can safely conclude that the calories removed in the form of carbohydrate cause weight loss primarily composed of water, at least initially. From this often-repeated fact of low-carb diets above, clearly the calories from carbohydrate, at least when we reduce their intake, have a much different effect on total mass than other kinds of calories. If when we reduce carbohydrate intake we lose tons of water weight, then obviously increasing carbohydrate intake would do the opposite.

Reducing primarily fat intake has a smaller effect on total mass, therefore on water mass. This suggests that increasing fat intake won't have as much of an effect on water mass, therefore on total mass. This further supports the idea that not all sources of calories have the same effect on total mass. And if different sources of calories have different effects on water mass and total mass, then why should we believe otherwise for fat mass?

Quote:
Did you ever ask whether people respond differently to diets of different compositions?

Dr. Rudolph Leibel, now an obesity researcher at Columbia University, and I took people who were of normal weight and had them live in the hospital, where we diddled with the number of calories we fed them so we could keep their weights absolutely constant, which is no easy thing. This was done with liquid diets of exactly known calorie content.

We kept the number of calories constant, always giving them the amount that should keep them at precisely the same weight. But we wildly changed the proportions of fats and carbohydrates. Some had practically no carbohydrates, and some had practically no fat.

What happened? Did people unexpectedly gain or lose weight when they had the same amount of calories but in a diet of a different composition?

No. There was zero difference between high-fat and low-fat diets.

Liquid diets? That means vegetable oils, probably corn or soy. Maybe he also believes all fats have the same effects on our physiology. Pfft. I'd like to know what he means by "practically". If he'd said "none", then it would be unambiguous. But now, based on everything else the guy said, "practically" could mean practically anything.

Quote:
They report that people on the Atkins diet were burning off more calories. Ergo, the diet is a good thing. Such low-carbohydrate diets usually give a more rapid initial weight loss than diets with the same amount of calories but with more carbohydrates. But when carbohydrate levels are low in a diet and fat content is high, people lose water. That can confuse attempts to measure energy output. The usual measurement is calories per unit of lean body mass — the part of the body that is not made up of fat. When water is lost, lean body mass goes down, and so calories per unit of lean body mass go up. It’s just arithmetic. There is no hocus-pocus, no advantage to the dieters. Only water, no fat, has been lost.

The paper did not provide information to know how the calculations were done, but this is a likely explanation for the result.

It's obvious from that quote that this guy has no idea what he's talking about. Note the graphs in the paper, they say "kcals/d", or kilocalories per day. The numbers go as high as 1,100 kcals/d. What kind of body part would spend that much energy each day, and what kind of whole body would spend the resulting total energy? Think about it. If the ratio is kcals/d/kg, then that's probably 1,100kcals/kg. So if somebody has 40kg of lean body mass, then this guy says they measured him spending 44,000 kcals in one day. Eedjit.

Last edited by M Levac : Mon, Jul-09-12 at 13:29.
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  #60   ^
Old Mon, Jul-09-12, 13:42
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Seejay Seejay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Technology is outpacing our ability to use it wisely.
I bet you meant thymus irradiation, though.
So I did! good catch.
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