Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low-Carb Studies & Research / Media Watch > Low-Carb War Zone
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 09:39
Daryl's Avatar
Daryl Daryl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,427
 
Plan: ZC
Stats: 260/222/170 Male 5-10
BF:Huh?
Progress: 42%
Location: Texas
Default Don Matesz's Farewell to Paleo

Quote:
I have experimented with eating a so-called “paleo” diet for at least 14 years. Although I had confidence enough in the concept to invest in self-publishing a book on putting it into practice, over this time I have endured increasing cognitive dissonance because the currently popular concept of paleo diet—animal-based, relatively high in protein and fat and relatively low in carbohydrate—conflicts with empirical nutrition knowledge accumulated over the course of 5 thousand years in both Asian and Western medicine, including a rather large body of clinical and laboratory data accumulated since the 19th century, all pointing toward humans being more adapted to a plant-dominated, high-carbohydrate diet supplying significantly less than 30% of energy from fat.


http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/...l-to-paleo.html
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 09:40
leemack's Avatar
leemack leemack is offline
NEVER GIVING UP!
Posts: 5,030
 
Plan: no sugar/grains LCHF IF
Stats: 478/354/200 Female 5' 9"
BF:excessive!!
Progress: 45%
Location: UK
Default

http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/

Quote:
I have experimented with eating a so-called “paleo” diet for at least 14 years. Although I had confidence enough in the concept to invest in self-publishing a book on putting it into practice, over this time I have endured increasing cognitive dissonance because the currently popular concept of paleo diet—animal-based, relatively high in protein and fat and relatively low in carbohydrate—conflicts with empirical nutrition knowledge accumulated over the course of 5 thousand years in both Asian and Western medicine, including a rather large body of clinical and laboratory data accumulated since the 19th century, all pointing toward humans being more adapted to a plant-dominated, high-carbohydrate diet supplying significantly less than 30% of energy from fat.




In addition, over this time period I have experienced myself, and seen in others, mostly gradual and sometimes sudden development of disorders that I can directly attribute to attempting to consume a high fat, excessive protein diet. I can confidently make this connection because of my previous nutrition and health history combined with my formal training in both Western nutrition and Oriental medicine. To summarize, these unwanted changes have occurred:


1) General dry skin, and return of inflamed skin lesions in locations previously healed during my years eating a low-fat, plant-based diet, plus emergence of lesions in new locations. When I restrict total dietary fat to no more than 20% of energy and avoid red meat and saturated fats, I watch my skin heal, and conversely, when I eat more fat, saturated fats, poultry, and red meat I watch it worsen. By elimination and reintroduction, I have found that eating 6-8 ounces of grass-finished beef will within 24 hours noticeably increase skin itching.


In general, it is standard practice in Chinese medicine to recommend elimination of red meat and poultry from the diet of people with inflammatory skin conditions because long empirical experience as well as Chinese theory indicate that these foods create inflammation. Despite my knowledge and experience, I tested the paleo hypothesis that these problems are caused by grains, not grass-finished meat. My experience confirms the Chinese medical view that inflammatory skin conditions arise, not from eating benign gluten-free grains and starches, but from general blood inflammation, toxicity, and stagnation, promoted by heating, congesting foods such as meat and fats.


From a Western nutrition perspective, excess dietary protein loads the blood with unnecessary acid, ammonia, and urea, and increased dietary fat causes increased coagulability of the blood, which reduces the rate of blood flow, particularly through the fine capillaries, impairing delivery of nutrients and oxygen to and removal of wastes from the skin cells as well as reducing the rate of blood filtration by the liver and kidneys; resulting in chronic low level toxemia.


2) Gradual return of disabling seasonal allergies and sinus congestion and inflammation, along with chronic congestion of ear canals. Reduction of dietary fat and protein quickly reduced the symptoms and thinned the secretions. Prolonged high fat and protein intake appears to increase the thickness and hence stickiness of mucous in the respiratory tract, trapping dust, pollen, and other irritants that stimulate immune and inflammatory responses.


3) Intermittent bouts of severe abdominal distress clearly caused by high fat intake, from which I could get relief only by fasting followed by reduced fat intake for several days.


4) Irregular bowel movement and, when eating very low fiber, constipation with small, dry, difficult to eliminate stools. High fat intake slows intestinal peristalsis, reducing the reliability and frequency of elimination.


5) Small lipomas which have arisen twice during the 14 year paleo stint. The first time they appeared, I eliminated them by eating a very low fat grain-based diet for one period of about 6 months, then returned to eating a 40-60% fat diet rich in red meat. After another five years or so they returned again. These are simply accumulations of excess fat.


6) Increasing muscular stiffness in mornings after sleep, along with severe cramps in lower legs occurring regularly at night, especially with very low carbohydrate intake. The chronic morning stiffness quickly markedly reduced (about 3-4 weeks) after adopting a low fat intake. I attribute the stiffness to sluggish blood circulation due to increased blood coagulability impairing nutrient and oxygen delivery and waste removal from tissues at night.


7) Anxiety attacks, which I never experienced before, when eating low (20-25% energy) carbohydrate and high (50-60%) fat. The attacks occurred consistently after large fatty meals. I attribute this to poor circulation to the brain along with neurotransmitter imbalance caused by inadequate intake of dietary carbohydrate.


8) Chronic tension in the shoulders and neck, which decreases when eating less fat and more carbohydrate. Oriental medicine has an explanation for this that eludes Western medicine.


I will give more details about my more than 30 years search for health through nutrition and natural medicine in another blog.


My wife Tracy, who now blogs at The Food Way, had the following distressing developments over the course of just 12 months eating in a low- to moderate-carbohydrate, grain-free paleo/primal fashion:


1) Progressive gain of body fat, due to a positive fat balance.


2) Headaches and tension that increased in intensity over the 12 months.


3) Increasingly persistent right hypochondrial discomfort, indicating stress to the liver.


4) Constipation of increasing severity over the course of the 12 months, due to dietary fat impairing intestinal peristalsis.


5) General and increasing sense of fatigue and morning sluggishness with increasing craving for morning coffee, an effect predictable from Chinese yin-yang theory applied to food. Briefly, a high-fat diet contributes to congestion and stagnation, and coffee's bitter constituents break up the congestion and drain out the stagnation, so people eating high fat diets can find the effects of coffee very attractive or even essential to get things opened up and moving.


6) Gradually increasing premenstrual breast tenderness and fibrocystic changes. This was the most alarming symptom to me, because it indicates increasing endocrine imbalance and is unacceptable within Chinese medical gynecology, which recognizes it as an early warning sign for potential breast tumors.


7) Persistent muscular and joint aches and pains, due to impaired blood flow.


8) Increasing vasomotor disturbances resulting in hot flashes and night sweats, another sign of endocrine imbalance. This disorder is also unacceptable to Chinese gynecology and Western scientific research has found that the occurrence of vasomotor disturbance in perimenopausal women is related to fat content of the diet, with high fat diets promoting and low fat diets reducing the occurrence.


9) Towards the end of the 12 months, she developed regular bloating after our high fat, meat-based meals, a sign of growing fat intolerance.


Since greatly reducing the fat and protein content of her diet, Tracy has had significant amelioration of all of the above symptoms. You can read more of her account on her blog, The Food Way.


As a result of these experiences I have abandoned “paleo” dieting as popularly conceived, and realized that all my difficulties were predicted by Chinese medical nutrition theory, which has a few thousand years head start on recent "paleo" diet theory. I have returned to eating a whole food, high-starch, gluten-free, low-fat (≤20% energy as fat) plant-based diet with much smaller amounts of animal products, primarily fish and shellfish. Although this accords with both traditional Chinese medical knowledge and modern Western nutrition research, it does not fit with the claim that “paleo diet” consists of a meat-dominated, low-to-moderate carbohydrate, grain-free diet.


Although I now believe that reverse engineering from presently observable human biochemistry and physiology suggests that modern humans are adapted to a high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet with relatively low or intermittent intake of animal foods (by current Western and especially "paleo diet" standards), mostly of fish and shellfish, I doubt that my input will change the now entrenched idea that human evolutionary “paleo” diets were meat- and fat- rich and plant-food poor. Therefore, I will not even attempt to call what I do or advocate a “paleo” or “primal” diet, although I think it appropriate to do so.


But for now I won’t be changing the name of my blog. From the beginning I defined “Primal Wisdom” as the innate intelligence of the bodymind, written in its various nutritional and other requirements, as well as in all the movements of Nature, which inform the Chinese scientific principle of yin-yang complementary opposition. Apparently the Nobel Prize winning physicist Niels Bohr understood the importance of this scientific principle, since he chose the yin-yang symbol for the his coat of arms.

In future posts, I think I will further discuss how we apply this and other Chinese medical principles to nutrition in such a way that makes sense out of the confusing mass of nutrition information available both within scientific research and in practical experience.

Hence, my farewell to popularized paleo. I hope all “paleo,” “primal,” and “hunter-gatherer” dieters fare well in their quest for health. So long as what you do continues to work for you, keep doing it. I hope that you have the knowledge, clarity of mind, and subtlety of awareness to notice the early signs of malfunction before you succumb to something serious and beyond repair. I have a series of blogs forthcoming on this topic, outlining the Oriental medical understanding of the progression of disease from minor to major, which Chinese physicians have used for millenia to help people reverse and prevent diet-related diseases.

Last edited by leemack : Thu, Jun-16-11 at 06:24.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 09:42
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,874
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Funny, I got those symptoms eating a grain-based diet.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 09:52
Daryl's Avatar
Daryl Daryl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,427
 
Plan: ZC
Stats: 260/222/170 Male 5-10
BF:Huh?
Progress: 42%
Location: Texas
Default

Yeah, and if you look at Matt Stone's "symptoms" in the comments, those too look like grain/carb based issues.
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 09:58
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
Default

Poor guy. I wonder what he was really eating. Sounds unbalanced for him, sure enough. 6-8 ounces of grass fed beef in one sitting? that is a day's protein for me. Maybe he thought one must eat as much volume of meat as one must eat volume of plants. Or something.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 10:09
Squarecube's Avatar
Squarecube Squarecube is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 877
 
Plan: atkins/paleo/IF
Stats: 186.5/159.0/160 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: NYC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl



Great. There's more room at the bar now.

Ummm, he mentions mucous in his post but nothing 'bout blood sugars. When people mention mucous, it forces my eyes to roll. Statements like "Progressive gain of body fat, due to a positive fat balance" lets you know it's really 'bout religion with him.
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 10:24
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

Quote:
1) Progressive gain of body fat, due to a positive fat balance.

Translation: I got fatter because I got fatter. Seriously. A positive fat balance is exactly the same thing as gain of body fat. A thing cannot be due to itself. I fear that this simple yet eloquent sign of ignorance permeates the post.

Everything the guy said is in contradiction with everything Weston Price observed and reported. But Price is not paleo! That's right it's not. The Paleo diet is hypothetical. We have no direct observation of anything Cordain said. Not so with Price. It's all direct observation of traditional populations eating traditional diets that are nothing like this guy ate.

So he followed the hypothetical paleo diet for a while and it didn't work out too well for him. Well shucks, he just discovered science: Observe, think, test. A pity that he thought his experiment was a failure when it produced an actual result. A shame that he doesn't have all the facts as background over which to judge his experiment, and thus properly deduce the probable causes of the results he obtained.

He says he got more infections and stuff. Maybe he just got a stronger immune system. A weak immune system would produce less mucus and thus an infection would be less noticeable. But it would be there nonetheless.
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 10:28
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,736
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
Default

What I don't get is him citing science; when science keeps showing the opposite of what he's saying.

And yeah, too much protein is not a good idea. I guess there's some law called No Cutting Down on That, Then.
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 11:30
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

A while ago I decided that I would challenge anybody who just invoked "science" in a general sense. What specific scientific evidence is he referring to when he says "large body of clinical and laboratory data accumulated since the 19th century"? Alright, name just one paper.
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 11:49
Jay1988 Jay1988 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 200
 
Plan: WAPF
Stats: 000/000/000 Male 0'0"
BF:0%/0%/0%
Progress: 163%
Location: Olathe, Kansas
Default

He seems to like to muddy the waters, the only other post I know by him was the "who said paleo was high fat?"
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 14:55
Merpig's Avatar
Merpig Merpig is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 7,582
 
Plan: EF/Fung IDM/keto
Stats: 375/225.4/175 Female 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 75%
Location: NE Florida
Default

Well it just goes to show, anecdotally at any rate, that one size diet does not fit all. Like Nancy, most of the symptoms he describes were things I experienced on a high-grain diet and all went away when I increased my fats and dropped my carbs (I'd guess protein stayed about the same, or may be a tad less now). Of course I have not been doing this for 14 years yet either. Who knows what I'll be feeling like 5-10 years down the line? I still do play around with macronutrient ratios. Right now I'm beginning, once again, to feel the Kwasniewski/Perfect Health Diet/Groves ratios are what I seem to do best on - hiigher carb that Atkins induction levels, but still low compared to SAD. I actually do get better blood sugar control when I keep proteins lower and add some starch to my diet than I do from an Induction-type diet.
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 15:00
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,874
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Paleo doesn't have to be a low carb diet. Lots of paleo eaters are eating starchy roots and squash. They're probably not trying to lose weight though.
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 15:14
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Quote:
5) Small lipomas which have arisen twice during the 14 year paleo stint. The first time they appeared, I eliminated them by eating a very low fat grain-based diet for one period of about 6 months, then returned to eating a 40-60% fat diet rich in red meat. After another five years or so they returned again. These are simply accumulations of excess fat.



This one really sticks out for me. Six months of grain eliminated this--or it took six months for it to go away on its own? Five years more of fatty meat and it came back. The idea that causation has been established here is absurd.
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 15:24
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
Paleo doesn't have to be a low carb diet. Lots of paleo eaters are eating starchy roots and squash. They're probably not trying to lose weight though.

I've seen the paleo idea used to justify eating more carbs. Maybe this Don guy was doing just that. And since it makes it legitimate, then when we eat more carbs, we don't have to acknowledge it especially or at all. A sort of free pass on what we would consider cheats otherwise.

Also I think that the paleo idea is still debated. There isn't a consensus yet. Some say it contained more starches/tubers thus high carb, others say it contained very little starches/tubers thus low carb. So if your idea of paleo is that it's OK to eat lots of tubers and starches, then it's OK to eat lots of carbs because one kind of carbs is just as good as another.
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Wed, Jun-15-11, 15:28
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
This one really sticks out for me. Six months of grain eliminated this--or it took six months for it to go away on its own? Five years more of fatty meat and it came back. The idea that causation has been established here is absurd.

A dog my dad had for a while developed lipomas regularly. That dog did not eat lots of meat, it ate lots of dog food, i.e CIAB*. I doubt that Don developed lipomas because of the meat he ate. Maybe he ate lots of CIAB too?

*Crap In A Bag
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:38.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.