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  #1   ^
Old Fri, Sep-17-10, 17:12
Turtle2003's Avatar
Turtle2003 Turtle2003 is offline
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Posts: 1,449
 
Plan: Atkins, Newcastle
Stats: 260/221.8/165 Female 5'3"
BF:Highest weight 260
Progress: 40%
Location: Northern California
Default Gary Taubes - have some of us gone beyond the point of no return?

I listened to a new Jimmy Moore podcast talk with Gary Taubes the other day and I found it kind of depressing. He sounded discouraged to me and kept talking about scientists/doctors in the past who got the carb thing right and then were forgotten and about people he thinks should know better who ignore his data and ideas.

The real kicker in this conversation for many of us is something he said about those of us who have been obese for a long time and are having a hard time losing, which is, I think, of interest to several of us.

He talked about some British researcher who was using low carb diets for his patients and found that the longer people have been obese, and especially women, restricting carbs just doesn’t seem to make a difference, or not much of a difference.

“And at that point the question is, can you starve yourself – restrict protein and carbs, or protein, fat, and carbs and will that be enough or is it just that these people’s systems are so chronically screwed up that they’ve gone beyond the point of no return.”

Then he talks about one reason his new book is about “How We Get Fat” is that he is stressing how to not get fat in the first place rather than how to lose the weight. He then goes on to say that for some people who have been obese for 20, 30 or more years there may be nothing they can do about it.

Well isn’t that just dandy. He and other low carb experts have been telling us for years that all we have to do is restrict carbs and we can lose weight ‘effortlessly”. Some of us have known for a long time that it just isn’t that easy for all of us, and finally one of them has admitted that fact.

If you don’t have time to listen to all of this he talks about this matter starting at about the 51:40 minute mark in the podcast.

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  #2   ^
Old Fri, Sep-17-10, 17:29
katmeyster's Avatar
katmeyster katmeyster is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 918
 
Plan: Keto (LCHFMP) + IF
Stats: 265/188/150 Female 61 inches
BF:Highest weight 290
Progress: 67%
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
Default

I'm starting to feel like one of those people. I lost weight easily on Atkins several years ago -- and yes, I did let a lot of it creep back on. But since January I've been pretty determined to get the weight off, and keep it off, but have only lost 20 pounds. Can you imagine someone thinking that I don't have will power when you look at this list?

Gave up almost all carbs (regularly eat 20-30 carbs).
Gave up all sugar and sweeteners.
Gave up all alcohol.
Gave up all grains and am eating gluten-free.
Gave up all fast food.
Gave up almost all processed food.
Try to eat as real as possible with organic veggies and grain-fed beef.
I am much more dedicated than before, with very few results.

I'm assuming my metabolism is screwed up, I know I am hypothyroid, and I'm perimenopausal. But I'm working on all that stuff with Armour thyroid and other supplements (been doing hours and hours of reading and research).

Yes, my body has changed in other ways: No longer have high blood pressure, triglycerides half what they were, HDL up, fasting blood glucose in the low 80's, so apparently no longer pre-diabetic.

So how can I see all these wonderful results which should indicate that I am addressing my insulin resistance, and am doing everything as suggested in the stalls area of this blog, spending lots of time getting educated -- and yet not lose much weight?

I wonder if I'm doomed to be fat? Or how extreme will I have to go? I don't want to do anything stupid as I get desperate -- but I'm starting to visit this site less and less as others get results eating a lot less clean than I do. I'm getting very discouraged, and hearing this information from Gary Taubes isn't making me feel any better.
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  #3   ^
Old Fri, Sep-17-10, 17:53
gwynne2's Avatar
gwynne2 gwynne2 is offline
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Posts: 1,698
 
Plan: Lowcarb/IF
Stats: 215/144.6/150 Female 5.5"
BF:
Progress: 108%
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This is just an anecdote, but I saw Dr. Westman in his practice a few months ago, and when I expressed dismay about the state of things and wondered if they'd change in my lifetime, he was way more optimistic about it than I expected.

Although, and this is sort of funny, during that visit I didn't know that he'd just written/published the latest Atkins book (I'd been seeing him for a few years prior).

I realize this doesn't address the main point of people eventually having their systems break beyond the point of no return, but it did give me some hope.

Two other anecdotes: my brother just had a double bypass at 43. The cardiologist specifically singled out the 12 pack a day of pepsi my brother had had for years. Also, my also-obese father (who does not have CHD, go figure), was put on statins by some lower-level practitioner, immediately developed arm and muscle pain, and was taken back off them by *his* cardiologist, who said he never should have been on them in the first place. I guess I'm just saying it's not all bad news out there, although I can certainly see why he might be discouraged.

And on the other, other hand: how many success stories have we seen from older lowcarbers? Lots. And I got fat when I was eight years old, and never successfully got less-fat without phentermine until I was 37.
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  #4   ^
Old Fri, Sep-17-10, 19:19
RobLL RobLL is offline
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Posts: 1,648
 
Plan: generalized low carb
Stats: 205/180/185 Male 67
BF:31%/14?%/12%
Progress: 125%
Location: Pacific Northwest
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I gained much of my weight back but still eat close to very low carb. I am diabetic. What is interesting is that the weight is much more spread over my whole body than before, som belly but nothing like before. The weight gain occurred after what I think was statin poisoning, which resulted in some hand paralysis and what amounted to chronic fatigue for two years. I am largely recovered.
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Sep-17-10, 19:24
jschwab jschwab is online now
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Posts: 5,566
 
Plan: Atkins72/Paleo/NoGrain/IF
Stats: 285/253/200 Female 5 feet 5.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 38%
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I think if you just look at weight, maybe there is something to this, but if you look at health it's a vastly different story. I have always been fat, but I have also always been healthy by all measurements and except for a few bad years in my 20's reasonably fit. My husband on the other hand is thin, always been thin but has tons of carb-poisoning related ailments he feels he may never reverse. Weight is never the whole picture. I am the same weight I was in high school. Would I like to be thin and healthy? Yes, but I'd rather be healthy. And I do think all of that can be reversed.
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Sep-17-10, 20:41
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KarenJ KarenJ is offline
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Posts: 1,564
 
Plan: tasty animals with butter
Stats: 170/115/110 Female 60"
BF:maintaining
Progress: 92%
Location: Northeastern Illinois
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My hubby is riffed right now, and one of the things we've noticed is that he's down to 158 from 170. The only thing that has changed is that he's no longer eating that giant salad for lunch. It was really a giant salad: Spinach, lettuce, broccoli, cauliflower, cottage cheese, tomatoes, diced ham or turkey, fake blue cheese dressing, quartered tomatoes... etc. Big salad! He thought he was eating healthy... not.
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Sep-17-10, 21:05
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LAwoman75 LAwoman75 is offline
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Posts: 1,741
 
Plan: Whole food, semi low carb
Stats: 165/165/140 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: Ozark Mt's
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenJ
My hubby is riffed right now, and one of the things we've noticed is that he's down to 158 from 170. The only thing that has changed is that he's no longer eating that giant salad for lunch. It was really a giant salad: Spinach, lettuce, broccoli, cauliflower, cottage cheese, tomatoes, diced ham or turkey, fake blue cheese dressing, quartered tomatoes... etc. Big salad! He thought he was eating healthy... not.


Is he skipping lunch completely or eating something in it's place? If so, what? I'm curious, thanks.
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  #8   ^
Old Sat, Sep-18-10, 10:33
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Angeline Angeline is offline
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Posts: 3,423
 
Plan: Atkins (loosely)
Stats: -/-/- Female 60
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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I agree. Weight is not everything. Sure, we'd all love to be slim and sexy, but that takes a back seat when your health starts to decline. Consider all the ailments of a bad diet, heart disease, diabetes, Alzheimer, osteoporosis, cancer, arthritis, to name but a few, you realize that if you manage to dodge those particular bullets, your weight doesn't matter all that much in the long run.
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  #9   ^
Old Sat, Sep-18-10, 11:34
gwu gwu is offline
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Posts: 18
 
Plan: PaleoNu
Stats: 157/145/145 Male 70 inches
BF:
Progress: 100%
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I too have noticed that, among my friends, those who have been overweight longer tend to take longer to lose the weight on low carb. It's making me think that perhaps some of the excess weight may actually be a type of tissue swelling caused by systemic inflammation, and that it may just take time for the body to repair the damage caused by the inflammation before the swelling goes away.
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Sep-18-10, 11:44
gwu gwu is offline
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Posts: 18
 
Plan: PaleoNu
Stats: 157/145/145 Male 70 inches
BF:
Progress: 100%
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In test of my theory, has anyone seen cases where someone's weight loss appears to stall on low carb, but then resumes inexplicably without major changes to the low carb diet?
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, Sep-18-10, 12:32
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Posts: 19,575
 
Plan: ~VLC/~dirty primal
Stats: 520/361/350 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 94%
Location: Ozarks USA
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gwu > sure. That happens not uncommonly, I've seen mention of that on the boards often over the years.

PJ
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Sep-18-10, 12:41
katmeyster's Avatar
katmeyster katmeyster is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 918
 
Plan: Keto (LCHFMP) + IF
Stats: 265/188/150 Female 61 inches
BF:Highest weight 290
Progress: 67%
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
Default

Because of all my health improvements, I'm staying on LC. But I'm breathlessly awaiting the inexplicable.
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  #13   ^
Old Sat, Sep-18-10, 12:55
jschwab jschwab is online now
Senior Member
Posts: 5,566
 
Plan: Atkins72/Paleo/NoGrain/IF
Stats: 285/253/200 Female 5 feet 5.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 38%
Default

My weight loss has been nonexistant on strict low-carb and then picked up dramatically when inflammation is addressed. I had a soft tissue injury last November that shot my cortisol and other marks of inflammation up. With supplementing and healing I am now losing eating about 7 times as many carbs. Inflammation is a huge part of the equation in my opinion.

I can share another anecdote. I saw a doctor in April. At the time I weighed 230, so about 50 pounds into the "obese" category. He told me with my blood work, he felt it was safe to say there was no chance at all I would ever develop diabetes. I feel that is an absolute reversal of where I was headed before I started low carb. I headed it off, so to speak, and I have seen people here reverse diabetes diagnoses. The body is remarkably resilient - most people never push their bodies to the limits of healing.

There is a nun from California who is quite elderly now (still working, though). In the 80's she was grossly obese and a lifelong smoker. She started running to burn off stress related to her job as a school principal. Within 5 years she had qualified in the Olympic marathon trials (best women compete for a spot on the team) at the age of 52. How many of us with bodies compromised by smoking, alcohol, carbs, stress, being sedentary ever push ourselves to those kinds of limits? Most people have a tough time imagining life without birthday cake, let alone completely retuning their life KWIM?
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  #14   ^
Old Sat, Sep-18-10, 13:22
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Posts: 19,575
 
Plan: ~VLC/~dirty primal
Stats: 520/361/350 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 94%
Location: Ozarks USA
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Yeah, well how many of us have the incredible dedication to be a nun, either LOL. That's one of those cases where when you look at someone who is exceptional in some category you notice they tend to be in MANY categories!

PJ
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  #15   ^
Old Sat, Sep-18-10, 13:24
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Posts: 19,575
 
Plan: ~VLC/~dirty primal
Stats: 520/361/350 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 94%
Location: Ozarks USA
Default

Quote:
My weight loss has been nonexistant on strict low-carb and then picked up dramatically when inflammation is addressed. I had a soft tissue injury last November that shot my cortisol and other marks of inflammation up. With supplementing and healing I am now losing eating about 7 times as many carbs. Inflammation is a huge part of the equation in my opinion.


I have seen a difference related to ongoing fairly major and probably over- supplementation (not so much with too much of one thing as just a ton of a zillion things -- every imaginable vitamin and herb I could find that sounded good and not dangerous).

I'm curious what you have done to address the inflammation?

PJ
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