Barry Groves and Dr K are on the same wavelength:

"17. Why Low Carb Diets Must Be High Fat, Not High Protein"
http://www.amazon.com/Trick-Treat-h...40103644&sr=1-1

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/trick-and-treat.html
"If we reduce the carbohydrate content of our diet, we either go hungry or replace the carbs lost with something else. There is currently a great deal of debate about what this should be. This chapter explains why carbs should be replaced with fats — and which fats they should be."

Why get hung up on exact ratios of carbs to fat to protein? Doesn't this cause the same problem as counting calories, which many feel is doomed to fail? So we can go as low carb as one can stand. Replace lean mean with fatty meat, or cook in coconut oil. Snack on macademia nuts. Eat bacon and eggs, with the eggs cooked in the bacon grease. Eat avocados. Eat Kielbasa.

Chinese love fatty duck and pork. The French eat a fatty diet (relative to the American Food Pyramid). Plains Indians commonly blended bear fat with their food:
http://www.amazon.com/Feasting-Fast...y/dp/159152007X

Paleo does not automatically mean lean meat. Organ meats are fatty, it is likely paleos ate the entire animal as they did not have the American medical establishment around to tell them they could only eat lean meat or get heart disease.

The Lewis and Clark expedition ate 6-9 lbs of meat per person a day, and they greatly prized fat (pages 213-214 http://www.amazon.com/Feasting-Fast...y/dp/159152007X)

So perhaps lean meat by itself is bad. If one cannot reach Dr K's recommended level of fat grams, who cares? You can still use his basic idea, which is also a Barry Groves diet. Maybe follow Dr K ratios exactly if you are trying to cure diabetes, but if you just want to lose weight, a partial adaptation should be ok?

The big advantage of Barry Groves version of the diet is that English-speaking people can actually read what the doctor has to say. Good idea, Amanda and Matt. Thanks.

:: off to read the Barry Groves book I bought and never opened ::

I'm only on page 8 of Groves' Natural Health & Weight Loss, so far, but he says, "While proteins don't raise glucose levels, they do raise blood insulin."

I spent hours reading that Kwasniewski material and only got more confused. A few minutes with Barry Groves and the picture is becoming clear.

Wow... I really hope he isn't that ignorant. I'm going to assume he's just oversimplifying for some reason. They definitely can and do. It's part of the body's basic functioning. Otherwise we'd die almost immediately when fasting or in ketosis from low blood sugar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

For those discussing problems with dairy, casein is damaged with pasteurization. Also the calcium mostly cannot be absorbed. Many sources, google search casein damage from pasteurization.
http://deepfitness.com/728/Twelve-R...Beach-Diet.aspx
Mercola does a good job debunking the South Beach diet, and mentions the problem with pasteurization of milk. Pasteurization may not be typical in Poland.

So are you saying that if I have a problem with dairy (it gives me headaches), I might not have a problem with cheese made from unpasturized milk?

Exactly Allison. Most of us can never buy raw milk. In Indiana, you have to buy a 'cowshare'.

That's from the introduction. I haven't gotten far enough in to find an in-depth discussion. He's just raving about the wonders of eating breakfast right now.

He probably just means when the protein hits your bloodstream. Even I know of gluconeogenesis. It doesn't always happen and it doesn't happen instantly.

I'd look into that a little further just to make sure it isn't raw milk faddist wishful thinking. As far as I know, casein is a pretty tough molecule and isn't changed by heat, fermentation or anything else, just like gluten. Your body still recognizes it as casein and responds with the autoimmune system.

I looked into it when I was faced with giving up dairy and didn't want to. I didn't see anything that convinced me raw dairy casein was any better and there aren't any magical enzymes in raw dairy that help you digest casein either, anticipating you'll hear that next.

I think it happens excessively in some people, myself for instance, and diabetics. Maybe anyone insulin resistant. Otherwise it'd be impossible for us to have high blood sugar on a low carb diet. And yet, it happens.

http://www.engelmann.com.au/documents/milk.html
Many sources give the problems with pasteurized milk. We just had a registered dietitian from Purdue speak at our weight loss group at work Friday and she said the same thing.
I gave up all dairy months ago, but my wife consumes a large amount of milk. So I am looking into buying a cow share.

I wonder if this is the reason that Groves, Kw, and Schwarzbein all insist on having a good 10 - 15 gm of carb with each meal. Maybe it prevents gluconeogenesis from starting? Maybe in some people it starts and then can't shut off.

I need a blood sugar monitor.

The mention of protein consumption causing an insulin surge worries me too. I hope he gets back to that. I won't be able to get back to the book till much later.

I tend to look for credible sources in peer reviewed journals, universities, reputable doctors who study the immune system, where they [attempt to] use science and stuff. There's so much crap out on the Internet and if you don't apply any sort of standards you're likely to find evidence that could support anything.

Try this google search instead: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...lr=&btnG=Search

Part of insulin's job is making sure that protein gets where it needs to go. Glucagon is the counter balance to insulin. When it goes up then glucogen is released (carbohydrate stored in muscles and I think liver). When glucogen is in short supply it gets manufactured from protein. I think it's this process that goes haywire sometimes. Too much glucogen is getting released, gluconeogenesis is probably on overdrive to keep up. You've read Protein Power haven't you? I think they get into those details in there.

Yeah, a BG meter is a fascinating tool. I bought one out of curiosity but I'm glad I did, it helped me figure out that something is wrong that a low carb diet isn't fixing.

One of the worst dairy reactions I've had came from raw cheese.

I don't buy into the whole raw dairy advocation.