Cynthia, I'm sorry if one of my rants pissed you off. I do a lot of that lately and I hope you find it within yourself to forgive me for doing such a poor job of communicating my feelings.

I realize that I do sound rather harshly about keeping the idea of paleo "pure." See, I'm one of those people who often differentiates between a thought and an action -- the relevance here being that the "idea" of Paleo should remain pure, while in actual practice we are all.... practicing. Therefore it really gets my goat, so-to-speak, when I hear rumblings of "Dairy is so Paleo" and "Artificial additives/processing are okay so long as they have no carbs..."

I maintain that people need to follow their own accumulated wisdom on this journey. I try to do that. But I really hate to see the watering down of this great idea called the Paleo Diet into something more "palatable" to folks who refuse to accept that there is a difference between the idea and those who practice it. In fact, I do tend to see Atkins dieters as cheaters, to an extent, because I've been there, and it was a great leap for me to understand that what I really needed was/is an all-natural diet. I was a cheater, okay, I'll admit that. Atkins is such an alluring, commercial enterprise.

I believe we should let it [Paleo] mold us as best we can, not the other way around.

Whether you buy this or not is no matter. But either way, I hope you and others understand a little better where I'm coming from.

Proteus, I can accept your fanaticism but you might also want to keep in mind that there are people who could derive a lot of benefit from accepting parts of Paleo who would be put-off from it if they viewed the adherents as fanatics.

I think it is a lot like religion. I was always put off of religion because of the fanatics. Then when you find out that they're practicing something other than what they preach... well there's nothing quite so much fun, IMHO, than catching the preacher with his pants down.

I think there's room here for discussion of things that fall short of the complete paleo package. Some people come to these things in stages. I know I was and still am.

I need to know there is some benefit to me other than a philosophical one.

Fanaticism?

That's really funny, Nancy. I never thought anyone would catch me with my pants down.

Seriously, I know where you're coming from. I am not a fanatic, however. How could I be? I suppose I feel a little misunderstood here. I fall off the wagon, I eat non-Paleo foods, I know I'll never be living in the woods eating nuts, twigs, lizards, and leaves. My bottom line, however, is that I like to worship the Great Paleo God.

So, there are shades of gray in Paleo, sure, but I cannot call something that's obviously NOT Paleo, Paleo. I can live with that inconsistency, and practice it in approximation.

Does anyone understand where I'm coming from?

I do, or so I think.

Pure Paleo (for lack of a better term) is likely the single healthiest way to eat. When one finds this out, feels it to be true, then it certainly can be human nature to wish others to realize it.

And, it can be aggravating to have something "misnamed". A pet peeve of mine is when someone says that a "white" lie isn't really lying, especially if it's done for a good reason. Well, yes, it is still lying, whether well-intended, or not.

Am I even remotely close, Proteus?

Having said all that, I hope both the purists (of which I'm not, though I think about it alot), and those just looking for added knowledge, can co-exist.

Honestly I do get where you're coming from. I find that I can learn a lot from the Paleo ideas, even if I'm not in a place where I actually *practice* them.

However, I've made a conscious decision this time around on the LC eating carousel to stay closer to meat and veg, even with the additions of cheese and butter, instead of eating the bars, breads and other products that are engineered to be *low carb.* I don't have anything much against them...except that they didn't help me change how I looked at food. And I'm in this for relearning my body and my responses to REAL food, not to see how closely I can mimic SAD while calling myself low carb.

No forgiveness needed.

The same place we all are: the great high-carb pit o' despair.

But seriously, I think I understand where you're coming from – after all somebody has to uphold the "Great Paleo God's" commandments, and what's a religion without a few fanatics?

If we want to get technical, 'fanatic' doesn't have to have negative connotations: fanatic [often with adj.] informal person with an obsessive interest in and enthusiam for something, esp. an activity eg. a fitness fanatic

So call me a paleo-fanatic, because I am very enthusiastic about it (and maybe a little obsessed given the frequency I check this board!)

I think you can be a fanatic if what you're being fanatic about is truly worth the attention. And i think this woe is. People can find their own happy medium.

Speaking of which, I think someone should do 'the ten commandments- paleo style'. Might sort out a few of those shades of gray...or green and brown, as they may be.

I just want to make sure we all understand that we're varying levels of paleo-ness. I think Dr. Eades kind of did that with his "purists" and "hedonists" divisions of his diet. I doubt there's many purists (if any) here. We've all got our non-paleo exclusions.

I don't like to sneer at the Atkins folks because I never would have discovered this if it weren't for Atkins. I think there's a lot of people that find how much better they feel on low carb and then get to thinking that perhaps there is even more improvement to be had and perhaps they stumble upon paleo. Or they find out like me, that something they're eating makes them ill.

Sure, if someone is trying to insist that dairy is paleo, they should be corrected. But since we're all on a continuum of paleo-ness, I don't think anyone here has the right to say if you're eating xyz then you're not paleo. I mean where do you draw the line? Paleo people more than likely didn't drink coffee, does that mean those of us who continue to drink coffee are not really paleo? Where do you draw the line at that sort of all-or-nothing thinking? If you sip your water out of a bottle versus out of your cupped hands over a mountain stream? I think you probably get my drift.

I wouldn't be eating this way for a philosophy.

Nancy, in fact I do drink water out of cupped hands... I guess I'm more Paleo than you

Tell you what, I'll make a deal with you. I'll quit haranguing the Atkins folks if you'll cozy up with a raw foodie once in a while. Deal?

Man, don't cozy up to a raw foodie unless you want to be short a few limbs! The veghead ones don't like us dead-animal-consumers.

What's one more voice saying the same thing?

I eat paleo with dairy and bacon. (not too much bacon, but I do cook with the fat from nitrite-free bacon)

It's not Atkins because I don't eat franken food and I will eat a little bit of fruit in season. (but I have to watch the peaches! Around here they are amazing in season) But I stay pretty low-carb. I lost 60 pounds then starting adding back foods and next thing you know, even on a diet that most people would consider carb-controlled (no pasta, no potatoes, very few desserts, moderate bread) I gained almost all of the weight back. I've now cut my carbs down to very low levels in order to lose weight (averaging about 2-3 pounds a week), and once I'm down to my lean weight, I'll start more natural paleo, still keeping away from starchy veggies, but still eating dairy, which has no bad effects for me.

We all have to find our way, and I think for a lot of people, paleo has an attraction is that it's easy, makes sense, and works well for us.

Plane

I hear you Proteus. There is value in keeping focused on the goal, and not allowing us to THINK that something is paleo just because it SEEMS better to us.

My only problem with paleo is that it seems to be fairly narrowly defined, when there isn't a huge amount of evidence that all human populations evolved in similar environments, nor that evolution stopped when domestication of animals or plants began. That's one of the reasons, I believe, that some of us work better on some variations of the paleo diet and some work better on others. I tolerate dairy well, others definitely do not. That's not to say dairy is paleo!! But what I am saying is that some populations seem to have developed better tolerance to some foods than others, even carbs.

I wouldn't be surprised if my northern European/Germanic ancestors were well adapted to a very meat-and-dairy-intensive diet. They seem to have been herders for a long, long time. Some paleo-like nomadic herder groups, like the Masai, get a great deal of their nutrition from milk and meat (and blood). It works for them.

I guess my point is, not everyone is the same. Paleo gives us a good baseline from which to figure out what works for our bodies, but it is not a universal panacea or prescription, it is merely the best starting point.

Plane

Ah, the voice of reason to calm a "fanatic" and quell an angry mob...

I agree, and think this is a very intelligent sentiment. Wish I could've said it that well.

I'll cozy up to a vegan any time. I'm not so picky....

(I would say something like "Herbivores can be dinner guests" but that might be misconstrued...)

Well, seeing as how my brother and his wife are vegans, although not raw vegans (fortunately they haven't gone that crazy) I think that's about as cozy I will be.

Although, now that I think back, my Mom's chiropractor had her on a raw, vegan diet when we were young. I was around in my early teens I think. Fortunately that only lasted about a summer. Of course, we all had to eat what Mom was eating. Our diet consisted of raw veggies, dates and nuts. I think that was it.

There has to be some use for nice, plump herbivores. Dietary guides, they're not.

We are talking about cows and sheep and rabbits and such, right?

(With a nice chianti.....)

Plane