Seems like you haven’t read my previous post:/

Then, again, as a native Russian, who have been living in various parts of Russia (from the Far East to the Far West) and who learnt its culture not just by the book and cabinet data, aguess I’m entitled enough to state that the traditional Russian diet IS plentiful in fat (lard, pork as such, cow’s butter, chicken and goose fat, fatty fish covered with thick sour cream sauce).
Lack of meat and enough protein/fat can be only referred to the very poor people who HAD to subsist on potatoes, bread and grains, seasonal veggies and fruit.


Not quite correct. It’s the most available and affordable alcohol in Russia with the widest assortment as to brand, flavour or price.
As for consuming high levels of vodka, I agree, it relates to heavy drinkers, i.e. just minor percentage of population, mostly elderly male.

I lived in Switzerland for years and the difference that I noted is that as soon as Europeans gain an inch they cut back (and, believe me, they cut back on carbs, not meat). I think what you were observing were people who were raised on very healthy diets, like my parents. They can eat carbs because they grew up eating a good balanced diet of meat, dairy, veggies, low process etc - no McDonald's, granola bars, and Twinkies. The children of the carb eaters you saw are getting heavier and heavier or, like many Western Europeans, starving themselves. Hardly anyone in Europe eats low-fat anything. Because they always kept healthy fat in their diets, their metabolisms are correspondingly favorable. And they eat only one big meal a day, not two, as we often do.

Janine

As someone of Italian decent, I'm going to chime in right quick. What you saw were people on vacation indulging.

Also, the pasta in Italy is not white flour, but whole wheat Durum Semolina. My mother refuses to use anything else. Cheese and fruit are usually desert and most Italian dishes are protein with veggies.

My grandmother used to REFUSE to fix spaghetti because it was "poor people food".

Italian-American food is really not very Italian in many aspects. Real Italian pizza is loaded with veggies and has no sauce. Its a far cry from what we consider pizza.

I was in Italy for 10 days and lost 15 pounds eating like an Italian and walking EVERYWHERE. Italians do an amazing amount of walking. Also, hardly anyone in Italy is obese.

I wasn't there for that long, but I lost about 5 pounds from the walking and the food.

My stereotypical concept of italian food (based on the Olive Garden and Spaghetti Factory ) was shattered when I went to Italy.

i've heard the same is true for anyone going to japan or china... the difference between what we consider chinese food and what they actually eat is astounding, and they laugh their butts off at us for it.

I honestly can't eat at those restaurants. The food grosses me out. I'd rather eat in my Mom's kitchen!

It's a great misconception that all Italians eat is pasta. It's usually a side dish and not main course. Also, Italians enjoy food, but they don't gorge. They also tend to each very fresh food and not processed.

I also noted that a meal "out" is quite a production... you get at a restaurant and they expect you to keep the table for the rest of the night.

I must also confess to having developed a bit of a taste for "limoni" (spell?) don't know if that's something people regularly indulge in or not.

My husband is in Germany this week - I'll have to quiz him on the faire when he gets home.

How much of that lost weight was the muscle tissue?

Eos,
No matter what we say, Regina has her data to prove that it is low fat diet that shortens life of russian population. It does not matter that traditional russian diet is as high in sat.fat as French, Scandinavian, etc. Large lush pastures are suitable for raising cattle, and while meat was consumed freely from fall to spring ( up to the great fast before easter), saturated fat in form of lard, chiken skin, butter, cream and sourcream is consumed all year around. I already posted it few time, that my DH relatives lived in Voronezh area, they had a samll farm: 2 cows, chikens, ducks, and every year they will get a suckling piglet and fatten through the summer, it so they can slaughter it at late fall. They would make plenty of cured pork fat, sausaged, ham, etc. and keep it well preserved in celler. They also salughted a calf, but only ate meat during winter. But fat was staple year around: raqw milk from 2 cows, they drank very little water, every food was washed down with a quart of full fat raw milk, home made butter, lard added to all dishes: caggabe soup, potatoes fried in lard, kasha with lard fried onions, eggs, chicken, fish in summer from the pond.
Of course, they also are lots of bread and potatoes, but everything was eaten with fat. The older brother of my Dh grandma lived to be 102, she is almost 93 now and doing fine, eating the same way even she lives in different area.
They were not heavy meat eaters, christian orthodox eat meat only during certain time, and mostly in winter, but spring and summer is mostly ovo/lacto vegeterian food with addition of chicken and fish.
Vegetables and fruits ( delicious apples) were grown in the garden patch, and they were mushrooms hunting and wild berries to make jam. These family was not completely sobber, but not heavy drinkers. All were slim, not obese, healthy and robbust.
This is a picture perfect of the russian traditional diet. Add to this, that during the great fast ( 40 days before Easter), they ate no animal products, the main source of fat was flax oil that they did not cook with, but ate with kasha. Flax oil is widely avaiable to the poorest while rich ppl could afford olive oil.

Now yes, but back in 80s, when Gorbatchev wanted to change the drinking situation, they came up with the coupon system that allowed 2 bottles per family I think per months, so it only made it worse, since bootleging was blooming. Now there are huge variety of all kind of spirits, good quality and not so good, but still... no shortfall.

I may be lived a bit longer tha you, and traveled a lot in different parts of SU and Russian federation, and unfrotunately, ppl drink too much in general, not only old, but old young. Even here in US they still continue their habits, the difference - they eat meat and fat with it.
Heavy drinkers don't eat, that it is main problem, but those never make it to an ripe age.
Nice to see someone from Russia on the forum. I had a lady friend from Sakhalin Island, but never been there myself. I bet you had plenty of salmon and fish in general, while meat was probably rare commodity.
Cheers

Accoring to fitday 1 cup cooked buckwheat is 33.5 carbs with 4.5 g fiber, plus niacin, folic acid, 21% of magenisum, zinc and copper, not a bad package for such a humble plant. Much less carbs and more nutriotional then baggel, donnut, and other junk. It is similar to rye and wheat in GI/GL wise, but does not work as fast as bread and mashed potatoes. Buckwheat traditionally is eaten with butter or rich milk, one cup is plenty to satisfy your carb tooth on ocation and won't ruin your health as processed junk.
http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/FoodFa...0010&OwnerID=13

I would have to say that generally, Europeans are a healthier lot, for so many of the reasons already stated. The produce is so fresh and abundant, there is a balance of food types in a meal, and they take the time to actually taste their food. It's normal to take a 2 hour lunch with your family, and its not just about eating, its about talking to your family and friends. Eating and food isn't bad, its part of the social fabric of their lifestyle. And of course, they walk a heck of a lot more than your average American.
The pace of American life seems to demand convenience foods. I know people who commute in their cars for hours a day and eat some drive-thru crap while sitting in traffic. I know people who don't have time for lunch breaks, and just have a Snickers bar. No wonder they binge when they get home on unhealthy food. That's when things can begin to spiral out of control and turn into disorderly eating, obesity, diabetes, etc.

I can confirm that. I was born in Belarus - one of the former USSR countries. I lived there with my parents for about 17 years, then did my undergrad in Moscow (another 5 years). Meat and fish were rare in our family, same for the eggs. I remember my father telling me off for making a sandwich with thin slice of bread and thick slice of kielbasa (processed meat). I did not like bread that much, but we had to fill up on it, because meat was expensive. The main staple in winter were potatoes fried or boiled. Vegetables and fruits were seasonal. I stopped eating potatoes completely for about 5 years after I moved out of my parents apartment. Even now I dont eat them more often than every 5-6 months - do not like the taste.
Sunflower oil was usually used for cooking along with pork fat (rare). When I went to the university I did not have enough money to buy meat or fish. I ate mostly buckwheat, oatmeal and barley, with a bit of sunflower oil. I had a limited amount of meat or fish only when I came to parents during winter and summer holidays.
Most people I knew ate the same stuff. Especially students who had no income and very low stipends. I also remember time when our parents have to get a limited number of coupons from the government to buy certain types of food (I think late 80s - early 90s). Even if you had money, you could not buy food without these coupons. Also, if you had them, there were huge lines in the grocery stores and the amount of food available was not enough for all people in the line.

P.S. Wonder what caused my gluten intolerance? Maybe a lot of "healthy" unprocessed grains I ate as an adolescent.

regina,
You probably have someone do the food shopping for you, otherwise, you would see how much meat and polutry ppl buy in supermarkets. Americans overfed with complete protein: los of dairy, meat, chicken, we eat more than we should big time. Meat is affordable for pretty much everyone, it just depends how much time one wants to spend on cooking. Cheap cuts sold in bulk, sales, of course, not everyone can afford tenderloin, but the other parts- no problem. The only population that lacks animal protein could be asians, they eat it very little still traditionally, I see it at work: they bring rice and veggies, and very small amount of meat. Not because they are poor, but this is how they eat traditionally.
Our size as a nation ( not weight but height), also shows that there is no shortage in complete protein -growth like factor. Did you see ppl from carb eating countries, they are much shorter in statue than meat and milk eaters. But even if some can't afford even frozen chicken tights ( cost penies a pound), then they can always combine rice and beans in one meal and get a complete protein. So, to say americans lack it nation wide, is simply wrong.

back to WWII, I have read in US a houswife cooked a pound of meat for a family of 4, and ppl were much slimmer back then. Same at home, we ate meat as a condiment, not as a main course. Never steak or roast, but more in soups, stews, and home made patties. I also believe that meat and milk ( another complete protein, and far superior to meat absorbtion wise) quality in US contributes to obesity due to GH, antibiotics, and other crap.


You can operated statistics, but I am familiar with the concept, and number of samples make huge difference.
I see ppl buying and eating meat and lots of it: at work, when we are out, shopping, we indeed eat too much of everything, the supersize me does work in reality. French restaurant steak size is 1/3 of what they serve in Steak House, portions of pasta drowen in creamy sauce is enough to serve a family of 4, but everyone has individual size of huge platter.
Our primal drive has nothing to do with what we eat, our food supply is tainted with hormones, preservatives, antibiotics, additives that disrupt our endocrine balance and make us ill and fat. I don't have "drive" to eat more unless I cut most carbs then what is left for me - protein. So I snack on cheese, turkey, and it makes me even hungrier. I literally can't eat too much fat, I will get major heart burn, but if I eat decent amount of veggies and fruit with ocational starches, I have no craving. Why? because I don't eat processed crap, and never did. So my body is trained to eat good whole food, and it is satisfied with it. May be we should cut off crap and junk and then see how it will go. WEight loss and Bgs control ( my major point) are different issues, but once I cutted out too much protein and fat, my blood test is much better in terms of BUN and creatinine, believe it or not.
As for carbs make everyone sick and fat, it is only in US, normally balance diet that includes plenty of veggies, fruits, even some starches, protein and fat will not make anyone fat. But some ppl simply can't control themselves, they can't take a bite of cake and walk away, or a spoonfull of ice cream, they must eat 1/2 of cake or 1/2 gallon of ice cream in one sitting, a large pizza by themselves, or 1/2 box of donuts, then wash it down with 2L cola, being a couch potatoes, and then blame FDA pyramid, whole grains, starches and fruits when they baloon to 300 pounds and beyond.

I say it was not carbs that made americans fat and ill, it is overconsumption of everything: meat and fat, and carby junk, with liquid sugar on a top. When can discuss it for ever, this is IMO, and you can disagree, but it does not mean, that VLCD is the ultimate diet, there are plenty of healthy ppl who follow moderate carb diet on this forum and still have great success.

The Atkins Nutritional Approach has four phases. Induction, ongoing weight loss, pre-maintenance, and lifetime maintenance. During pre-maintenance you have to figure out the MAXIMUM amount of carbs you can consume in a day without gaining weight. This is the amount of carbs you will be allowed per day during Lifetime Maintenance. You CAN eat bread, and pasta, and other carbohydrate foods so long as you DON'T go over your daily limit (for most people this is between 60-100 net carbs per day), and not gain weight. You absolutely CANNOT go back to your "old" way of eating (not counting your carbs) and expect to keep the weight off.

Yes, sorry, I meant polyunsaturated fats, but I was reading two things at the same time and I misstyped. EFA's are found in high concentrations in the brain and appear to be particularly important for cognitive and behavioral function. Typically, the brain does not use these fats for fuel, because glucose is readily available in the body. However, when glucose is NOT available, the brain is more effective at utilizing fats for fuel than the body is.

Yep. Salmon daily in all conceivable and inconceivable variations. Red caviar eaten with table spoons right out of the jar, or, when in decent mood, we put caviar on bread and thick butter. Also lots of sea scallops in cream or mustard sauce, crab meat and other luxury foods.

True, meat was scarce and mainly it was consumed either: by ppl who reared pigs, fowls on their own in their country houses (like my grandparents) or who were able to afford and buy the expensive meat imported from the mainland or sold by the local small farmers.


Such was the government’s resolution. .. which the public was able quite inventively to circumvent: not only through bootlegging, but ppl were also making home-brew, or gathered all their relatives together so that to buy more bottles (not to drink at a draught at once certainly, just to keep in stock for a rainy day).

Indeed, we should differentiate ppl who drink occasionally from heavy drinkers. The former drink just on holidays or 1st day of the weekend occasionally and eat thick and nutritional dishes at that. And then get back to normal human life.
The latter, just as you said, just drink which is both their breakfast, lunch and dinner.