Day five y'all. . . and still rocking and rolling.

j13, I ordered a scale on Amazon. . . no tellin' when it's gonna arrive, but it's coming.

Put in 2.5 hours of exercise this morning. An hour in the early AM, thirty min at home, then another hour with my daughter, walking her to a park and back.

Just trying to keep those habits going. Went a little higher on my net carbs today but it's in keeping with the increase in activity.

Loving breakfasts of pork bacon/sausage and eggs. . .

I've been away for a few days, so I hadn't seen the updates until now, but I'm really, really glad to read what you've written in here so far. Your buying that scale was a really, really positive thing for you to do. It will give you a huge benefit.

When I started, I didn't have a scale - I literally hadn't weighed myself for at least 15 years. When I did, and found out what I actually weighed, I realized that doing that was something I needed to incorporate into my daily life. And it's good to see the exercise getting done. One of the things I did when I started was that if I worked out after work that I would not let myself sit down when I got home. I would IMMEDIATELY change and work out, so that I didn't give myself the opportunity to get distracted. That was a big part of my setting my priorities.

One thing concerns me, though. By "a little higher" on your net carbs, what are you talking about? I don't know what plan you're trying to follow, but I do know that that's not a mentality that I have never, ever had. My carbs stay low regardless of how much I exercise. To me - unless there is a specific plan that you're following with a specific prescription to do this - this smacks of a rationalization for eating badly (or, if not badly, at least sub-optimally). I mean, if you were hungry you could have just upped you "net steak" intake for the day while staying totally on plan (and eating a delicious steak... ).

I do not increase my net carbs when I work out, and if I did it would not be because I was working out, since that's not a part of my plan (DANDR). If I did it would be because I was choosing to do so, and I would acknowledge that doing that was not the best choice I could have made in light of my long-term goals.

-j.

I hear ya, j, but it WAS a decision to have in keeping with my activities.

I had a single piece of fruit (insert shreek here) because I wanted to, because I know my body enough to know that it wouldn't effect me one bit after 2.5 hours of PT, and because I wanted the fiber.

I've been living on chicken, pork, sausage, bacon, eggs, and vegetables all week. I'm continuing to live on chicken, pork, sausage, bacon, eggs, and vegetables. Woke up this morning for some spicy tex-mex chorizo and eggs!

But when I put in a LOT of exercise, and for me, 2.5 hrs is a lot, I have no problem having a single piece of fruit, and I'm not going to cry over it because it IS a single piece, and in this case, a still green mango - whose sugars have not fully developed. Green bananas are the same - the sugars develop with time, they turn yellow, then spotted, then brown.

If I put in other 2-3 hours of PT today, I'll probably have another piece of fruit.

Because ultimately, this is about something I can stick to and lose weight on. My calories are low, my fiber intake is good, my carb intake is low (even with one piece of fruit) and I can stick to it.

It's easy to make a slipperly slope argument - one piece of fruit leads to a cup of haagen daz leads to a box of krispy kremes, but something is different this time around.

My wife told me that. . . I'm not obsesing about what to eat, I'm just eating. I'm not focusing night and day about the pitfalls tomorrow, I'm just eating and eating right.

My clothes is looser, I'm training more, exercising more, and keeping my eye on the ultimate goal - a return to the Ryan of old. . . the Ryan that ran 6.2 miles a day and trained in Aikido 3 hours a day on top of it. I didn't do that when I was a kid or a teenager; I was in my 20's.

That young man may be gone forever, but I can get that sense of health back, that sense of fitness back, and that sense of who I am back.

And that is what I want most.

Hi Ryan,
I"m glad that you're taking control of your life in a very positive way.

I have a suggestion for you on when to eat your carbs. You may not have thought of this before but eating the carbs before you exercise is actually better for your body:
Your body burns fat for fuel in ketosis until you eat the carbs, then it slips into burning carbs instead of fat. When you're doing PT your body will burn the carbs (calories) in the friut instead of your body fat. When you eat the carbs after exercise you will be out of ketosis. That means everything else you eat for a while including the fruit will be stored as fat until you get back into ketosis.

The body uses whatever fuel it has an hand..on demand. You will no longer be in ketosis after you eat that many carbs, but if you eat it at a time when your body has a high demand for energy it will burn those calories then will have to slip back into ketosis for more energy.

It's your choice, and hey, I support anyone's choice here. It is your life, your body and your WOE.

Have you seen the My P.L.A.N. tool? It's a great way to track everything for you. That way you can tweek your eating according to how you're losing, feeling, etc. It's highlighted in yellow in the upper righthand corner of the screen. That way if you are going it on your own, your mind can't trick itself into thinking you've only eaten X amount of carbs when in reality you've eaten XX amount. You know unripe fruit is still loaded with starches and carbs for someone doing LC. During the two week induction period the body 'trains' itself to handle glucose differently. At least during Induction, try something other than fruit. Give it a chance to work its magic on you.

Good for you choosing to BE a healthier you.

What she said. Also, what I said before, and this:

http://www.carbs-information.com/ca...bs-in-mango.htm

I don't care how green it was, that's a lot of carbs. Compare that to:

http://www.carbs-information.com/ca...in-snickers.htm

Functionally, you actually ate a candy bar. It may not have seemed like it, but that's what you did. Maybe it has some more vitamins (which you should be getting from your supplements anyway, btw), but you jammed a snickers bar into your ketosis, and you did it AFTER working out, so none of that energy went in to working out. Had you eaten a big steak, however, that food would have gone into building muscle and making you stronger and more able to do more exercise and lose more weight in the future without hurting your efforts. The mango was a bad choice. There is no other way around it.

Put another way: that mango has more carbs than I eat probably 85-95% of the time in an entire day. I doubt that its green-ness makes it, like, 5 carbs. If you can't not have a piece of fruit, you could certainly make a better choice:

http://www.carb-counter.org/fruit/s...rawberries/0900

for instance.

Sure, it was great that you did 2.5 hours of PT. You certainly got way, way less benefit from it than you would have had you not had one "little" piece of fruit, especially since you had the fruit *after* working out. This is the definition of self-defeating behavior and rationalization. And you can say that you're not going to backslide just because of one piece of fruit, but I believe you've said the same thing in the past. I'm not positive off the top of my head, but I think it was hamburger buns last time. Also, you still haven't (to my knowledge) said what plan you're following, and how this "one little piece of fruit" works into that.

Look, it's great that you've been eating good otherwise, and it's great that you've been working out. But cutting out of induction is incredibly destructive to the diet. Period, end of sentance. When you're in ketosis, your body is working on a biological level to burn the fat in your body, and when you introduce an easier source of energy to burn, it STOPS DOING THAT. Then it takes a while to get your body back into that state - at least into it in its pure, effective "miracle" way that makes you shed pounds quickly. Again, this is all taking place on a biological level - there's nothing you can say or think to change this, no matter how small the piece of fruit, or candy, or whatever. And when your body gets jammed up and you're not losing, you get discouraged. And when you get discouraged and you start to blame the diet for not giving you the results that someone else had (like me, for example), you get defensive and quit. Then you keep gaining weight and die young.

Or at least that's what would have happened to me if I didn't stop rationalizing my bad choices over and over and over and over again.

While I support your efforts, I don't do it by telling you what you want to hear. I hope you hear what I'm trying to say. Catch these behaviors now and save yourself a lot of time, effort and heartache in the future.

As always, the good news is that, starting now, you CAN make better choices.

-j.

j, the plan I'm following is in my signature, the Atkins Nutritional Approach.

The web site has been updated and it's slightly different than when Dr. Atkins was alive, but it's still a controlled carb approach.

As for greenness, you're right, it wouldnt make it 5g . . . but it sure isn't 35 either. The estimate I was given by my doc's is 25g.

I was at 27 for the day. I'll live with it.

You're a grown up, so you'll make your own decisions, but the Atkins Nutritional Approach is only loosely based on Dr. Atkins' precepts and much more concerned with being popular and selling their products.

On one page they'll say 'don't eat anything not on the acceptable foods list' yet on the 'suggested menu' pages, they include all kinds of things not on that very list.

I find that fishy.

Warning for the squeamish: this post contains cursing.



FUCKING TAKE THE MANGOS AND THROW THEM IN THE MOTHERFUCKING TRASH.

There, I said it. Enough bullshit.

Look, take a reread of this thread, then look at your last few posts. They are EXACTLY what I was talking about before. You are not admitting that you made a mistake. And, for the record, I don't care whether you make that admission to me or keep it privately in your mind, but if you don't do it, you will not succeed. This is absolute fact. You need to recognize bad behaviors in order to correct them. PERIOD.

I don't know the ANA, or how that relates to the DANDR plan. If it is associated with the company, not the man, Atkins, then I am dubious of it, I'll tell you that much. So when I refer to Atkins, I am referring to it as it is written in DANDR, which is the form I stand by and have been successful with. If you don't have it, it's available in any bookstore and from iTunes as an audiobook.

So speaking from an Atkins point of view, you ARE NOT following the plan. It is NOT okay to eat a mango during induction. If you only had 27 carbs and you're chalking 25 of them up to a mango (which I all but guaratee is a lowball estimate) then you did not eat your green vegetables and you were, again, not eating on plan. Period. If you are claiming that you are following an Atkins plan, then you are not following it - and you've just barely started. And if you fail, this will be why. PERIOD.

In short, you are doing precisely what I wrote about previously in this thread:



"I wanted to, because I know my body enough to know that it wouldn't effect me one bit after 2.5 hours of PT, and because I wanted the fiber."

You do NOT know that it won't have an effect, because you are factually wrong about that. This is science, not a guess.

You wanted fiber???? Come one. Worst. Rationalization. Ever. Get yourself some metamucil or eat some ruffage or some berries.

"I have no problem having a single piece of fruit, and I'm not going to cry over it because it IS a single piece, and in this case, a still green mango - whose sugars have not fully developed. Green bananas are the same - the sugars develop with time, they turn yellow, then spotted, then brown."

It's not a big deal, it's little and green. Please. A piece of chocolate is little and brown. THIS IS SUCH A RATIONALIZATION IT IS INSANE. Unless Atkins says somewhere that it's cool to eat "Green" mangoes, then IT IS NOT OKAY.



"But when I put in a LOT of exercise, and for me, 2.5 hrs is a lot" ... "My clothes is looser, I'm training more, exercising more, " i.e. "I've been good, I deserve it." No, you don't. You went off plan. Period.



Pretty much exactly what I was talking about. You think you know more than Atkins did? Get the fuck out of here. You do not. Your rationalizing eating something you shouldn't says to me that you think you do. FOLLOW THE PLAN AS WRITTEN AND YOU WILL SUCCEED. KEEP MAKING UP YOUR OWN RULES AND YOU WILL FAIL.



Why not just say, "I ate off plan, I made a mistake, I intend to do better in the future." THAT is what successful people do. It is FINE to make mistakes. It is NOT a big deal to make them. It is when you make them and you do not ackowledge or correct them that your cycle of self-destruction continues.

I don't know any other way to say this: if you don't fix this, you will die. I can't, and won't, do it for you. It's up to you to dispense with the talk and start actually doing it. Start clean today, and give yourself over to it, or you will not succeed.

Still wishing you success-

-j.

LOL at all of this. If they guy wants a mango, he'll eat a mango!

If you feel good after working out and eating your mango, that's all that's important. I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to rationalize the choices you make to everyone else. You know how your body will respond, so if a mango is fine for you, I hope you enjoyed it!

If you find the mango impeded your progress, you'll have to adjust, but if it didn't like you said, no worries!

Dorr, this isn't just a mango, this is a pattern of behavior that has lasted literally for years. He first registered in may 2004. Dogbert has even *gained* some weight since I started here some 15 months ago (and over which time I've lost over 160 lbs, again as you know). We've been through this a thousand times before, and that's why I made a big deal of it - because it's not just one mango, it's a self-destructive mindset that has perpetuated itself through countless threads over the entire time I've been here.

You should know me well enough by now from reading my posts on here to know that I don't judge anyone for making a mistake. This is a far, far deeper issue. It's not about a mango, it's about everything else over years on here. Look at my first post in the thread - there's a reason I wrote said that I almost didn't enter into the thread in the first place, and it wasn't because I thought Dogbert might eat something he shouldn't - that's something everyone does. It's about the mindset that makes it a pattern, and which frankly makes me feel like I'm shouting into the void. Other people have PM'ed me and posted encouragement to my journal just in the 1 1/2 hours since I posted this, though, so at least someone's hearing what I'm saying.

-j.

Oh, I am hearing what you are saying. It even makes sense to me. But this isn't about what works for me or you, it's about him. This was obviously someone who was extremely proud of himself for working out for so long. I thought it was a little much to come down on someone when they were posting what thought was a positive accomplishment.

And not to rationalize for him, but the metabolism does burn more calories after a work out, so maybe the mango will not effect him that much.

The most important part of his post for me was.........



He did acknowledge that he didn't eat the fruit because it was part of the plan, but because he wanted to. It also appears as though he made a conscious decision based on his own experiences with his own body.

I just think I can relate to the guy. The most important thing is that he has to do it his way for it to work. You don't agree with the choice of a mango, I understand that, but this is him!

I don't follow any particular plan to the letter, and if I want something, no matter what it is, I eat it. Sushi was my last indulgence. I wanted sushi, so I went to the gym the morning before, had sushi for dinner (tons of it) and worked out later. Never gained a pound, didn't slow down my weight loss, never left ketosis.

My point is, eating a mango after working out for 2.5 hours may work for this guy, even if you don't agree it's a good idea. I'm sure you don't think me eating Sushi is a great idea but I still managed to drop over 100 pounds in six months.

This guy has to figure it out for himself through trial and error. Soon enough he'll know if the mango was an error, and if it was, it'll be up to him to adjust. For all we know, upping his carbs a little might help him lose a little faster, as it does for a lot of people.

And one more thing, this quote is categorically untrue.



That type of one size fits all mentality is what makes you fail. I took the diet, followed it by the book and it didn't work for me, I couldn't stick to it. It wasn't until I put my own spin on it that it worked for me. I'm sorry, but I think that quote is horrible advice.

In closing.........I wasn't defending him OR calling you judgmental. Maybe I was playing devils advocate a little.

Seriously, Dorr, you are VERY different from most people. You are exceptional in *that* you've been able to do this your way. Most people - by which I mean nearly everyone other than you, from myself to my parents to my friends to my coworkers - who has acted like they knew better than the plan and didn't listen to and heed the advice of experts failed. And it wasn't because they didn't try to lose weight. The fact is that you don't get to be as fat as I was by knowing about nutrition. Therefore, for the GRAND, GRAND majority of those of whom have been successful (from my reading on this board and others), the success came from taking the plan and living it without exception or excuses (keeping in mind, of course, that everyone does make mistakes along the way).

Further, Dogbert has demonstrated time in and time out, over the entire time that I've known him through this board, that his interpretations of what's right or wrong to do have been consistently wrong. Over and over again. It has been rationalization, not "self-awareness." Yet he keeps doing it his own way. You, Dorr, came out the gate successfully, younger (I think) and with less attempts under your belt. I, and Dogbert, are the opposite. You fail over and over and over and over again, across every type of diet and at some point you need to recognize that the common denominator to your lack of success is you. That is why I had to drop my ego, admit that I did NOT know best, and follow the plan to the best of my ability, being as honest as I could about everything I did. Dogbert reminds me of me, that is why I say he needs to do the same.

As to the rest of what you wrote, I'm comfortable with everything I've said, and the feedback I've gotten from some of the other members of the community makes me feel like my viewpoint (and method of communicating that viewpoint) was and is valid.

-j.

Well, that's fair. I'm not so sure about me being the except, I often hear about how people switch up the plan to make it work for them.

The only reason I got involved in the first place was because I can somewhat relate to the guy. It's the small victories that keep some of us going. If having the occassional mango after a hard workout is the thing that keeps this guy on the plan, I would hate for him to give that up and then give up on the whole plan.

Oh, and your view point was valid, but they way you communicated it came off comical. To each his own though.

Me and you have both found ways to be successful on this diet, and I hope this guy can find his own way too. I just think it's important that he knows that he can do it his way and still succeed.

I hope he doesn't get discouraged by your rude and over the top post.

Hi Dorr. . .

J's right. . . I have a history of losing and gaining, losing and gaining even more.

I know for a fact that the one mango didn't do anything to me, and I didn't have anymore - didn't need them, had no desire for them.

Continued the exercise yesterday, put in another 90 min, so my goal of 3-6 was hit (4+ hrs).

Eggs for breakfast, ham and cheddar lettuce wraps for lunch.

All the yelling about the mango aside, j's heart's in the right place. I know he wants me to succeed.

I know why I ate the fruit, I'm not sorry for eating the fruit, and if I want another piece like that again, I'm going to have one. No apologies. In a day where I'd hardly had any carbs, I could afford it. And going over the 20g mark by 7g is not the end of the world.

The ANA is what the doctor's at Atkins now call "doing Atkins". And they are open to you starting the diet at ANY of the four phases, not strictly Induction.

I started at Induction because I knew I needed it. I needed the cleansing nature of it, I needed to break the sugar habit. But I love fruit too. I love the fibrous fruits - berries, mangoes, stringy stuff.

Can't wait for the scale to get in to see how much weight I've lost so far. Still haven't gotten notification from the seller at Amazon, so there's no telling.

Regardless, in exactly two weeks I'm in the doc's office deciding on surgery options. So I'm sticking to the diet I've been following, to the exercises I've been doing, and to the commitments I've made.