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  #16   ^
Old Fri, May-13-05, 18:00
carps's Avatar
carps carps is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 165
 
Plan: carbohydrate addicts
Stats: 257.5/235.4/138 Female 5ft 6 inches
BF:
Progress: 18%
Location: New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roguecloud
physiologically, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to build muscle and lose bodyweight at the same time.


what??? sorry - just plain don't agree -
how would you explain the thousands of people who do that very thing every day. Yes losing fat reveals the muscle underneath, but still possible to grow muscle and lose weight at the same time... muscle growth support weight loss and in most cases (those with a decent amount to lose) the fat loss far outstrips the muscle weight gained.
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  #17   ^
Old Sat, May-14-05, 01:39
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
Default

There is a phenomena known unscientifically as "Newbie Muscle Gain". While experienced bodybuilders have to struggle to either gain muscle (and deal with a bit of fat gain) OR lose fat (at the expense of a little muscle, or if dieting "correctly", they can at least preserve their LBM)....... people who are NEW to weight training CAN and DO experience simultaneous muscle gain/fat loss. Now, we're not talking hyoooge gains, but it does happen. If I wasn't trying to type this with a wiggling baby on my lap, I could go find and post a bunch of research "proving" this, but I'm sure anyone interested could do just as well.
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  #18   ^
Old Sat, May-14-05, 10:31
Over40 Over40 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 55
 
Plan: Atkins, on and off
Stats: 190/175/165 Male 5' 9"
BF:12-13% (?)
Progress: 60%
Location: The Mountains
Default Build the muscle to burn the fat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansy
I posted this in my journal and thought I would get more answers here.



Okay started to work out finally I just am so confused about doing cardio (burning fat) and lifting weights (building muscle). Well I have read numerous articles which state that burning fat and building muscle are impossible do do at the same time..... and well I guess if I could just get a clear answer to what I should be doing right now I would feel more confident with my time being spent in the gym..... If I want to burn fat should I just do cardio everyday for 30 minutes a day until I finally lose the fat?....and then lift weights to put on the muscle I need to help maintain the weight loss. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Dearest Pansy,

I have not read any other posts to your question.

Research seems to indicate, that contrary to popular belief, resistance training "burns" more fat than cardio. According to the "Experts", cardio burns calories for the time you are exercising. Resistance training increases your metabolism during the workout and then on through the day. Also, the more muscle you build, the more calories/fat you burn. Muscle burns fat.

So, build muscle. Practice resistance training and you should see an appreciable improvement in your muscle tonus and a loss in bodyfat percentage.

If you want to throw in a walk, a bike ride, a swim, enjoy.

I do know this from my own experiences, when I go to a cardio only workout system, I tend to loose very little, if anyweight. I did Power90 once for 72 days, and lost 1 pound. The following winter I used a low carb approach with a 3 day a week Nautilus workout, 30 minutes per workout, and lost 15 pounds.

Take Care,

Over40
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  #19   ^
Old Sat, May-14-05, 10:44
Over40 Over40 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 55
 
Plan: Atkins, on and off
Stats: 190/175/165 Male 5' 9"
BF:12-13% (?)
Progress: 60%
Location: The Mountains
Default I agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by carps
what??? sorry - just plain don't agree -
how would you explain the thousands of people who do that very thing every day. Yes losing fat reveals the muscle underneath, but still possible to grow muscle and lose weight at the same time... muscle growth support weight loss and in most cases (those with a decent amount to lose) the fat loss far outstrips the muscle weight gained.


Carps,

I agree. I have started lifting again, seriously, two weeks ago. I am seeing a renewed improvement in my muscle appearance, and a loss of fat. I have lost about three pounds in the proceeding two weeks.

In Living Longer Stronger , Ellington Darden gives case study after case study of clients he has trained. Clients were losing 40, 50, up to 100 pounds, but were only gaining 2, 5, 10 pounds of muscle during the time they were monitored. And, his program was a resistance program exclusively. Although, it was also low calorie nutrition, not low carb. Yet, the results indicate that a resistance only program can induce a large amount of fat loss, and build muscle, but the muscle increase is not as great as the "musclemags" would like us to think.

Take Care,

Over40
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  #20   ^
Old Tue, May-17-05, 21:35
WoodyAllen WoodyAllen is offline
New Member
Posts: 52
 
Plan: Low GI/Sugar
Stats: 250/180/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Default

Honestly folks, the more experienced a lifter you are the harder it is to accomplish both at the same time. Its nearly impossible. You are either have a caloric excess or you have a caloric deficit. If you are not eating enough it is simply very hard to just maintain your lean body weight.

You can gain strength and some people mistake this for gaining mass and as I mentioned in my post before, those who are new to the weight training game or have had signficant lay offs can do both with some success. But if you've been lifting steadily for a number of years it is very, very difficult and if you do it at all it won't be with huge dips or increases in either direction.

Quote:
this is exactly the kind of sh*t that you get when you read mainstream "bodybuilding" articles...

why don't you save yourself the trouble of the inevitable joint knee shoulder and back injuries that you get from wasting your time lifting weight, and learn how to do bodyweight exercises?

with bodyweight exercises you are doing BOTH a "cardio" and a "strength" workout at the same time, while also improving your flexibility, and strengthening your joints instead of grinding them down.

pushups, bodyweight leg work, pullups, handstands, etc... this is the "body building" of the future. this is real strength -- being able to work with your own body...

do you need big "puffy" muscles that aren't really even that strong? it's like when you eat chicken...these "body builders" have big, puffy, but soft white meat muscle...plus, they are destroying their flexibility and joints.
functional exercises give you the dark, oxygen-filled useful muscle that makes you more alive!

there you go...some nice propoganda for you!


Wow. I mean really, wow. You just managed to post one of the most misinformed and illogical rants I've ever seen on these boards.

Where are you getting this garbage?
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  #21   ^
Old Wed, May-18-05, 10:58
Bigdaddy99's Avatar
Bigdaddy99 Bigdaddy99 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 56
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 290/225/220 Male 6'1"
BF:
Progress: 93%
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodyAllen
Honestly folks, the more experienced a lifter you are the harder it is to accomplish both at the same time. Its nearly impossible. You are either have a caloric excess or you have a caloric deficit. If you are not eating enough it is simply very hard to just maintain your lean body weight.


Agreed. But this is only for the experienced lifter. No doubt that as you approach your own natural potential for muscle mass, the only way to add muscle is through a high intake of protein and carbohydrates and we are talking high... like 1.5 - 2 grams of protein and carbs per pound of lean body weight.

There are not too many of us in this boat here... although I hope to be someday.

But, for an inexperienced lifter, it is possible to burn fat and and add REAL muscle growth.

In my case, I benefited from muscle memory. I used to lift weights hard when I was younger, I was pretty big. What happens when we build new muscle is that those muscle cells are now with us for life, unless of course, through injury, bad dieting or starvation, our body is forced to cannabalize muscle tissue in order to use it as fuel for basic survival. However, when we stop stimulating the muscle fibres on a constant basis, there is no need for the muscle to maintain it's size and strength. Therefore "muscle atrophy" occurs. What this means is that our muscles shrink to a size that is relevant to our daily activity and the strength of the muscles follow in accordance with what we require. When we begin to stimulate our muscles again through resistance training, the reversal of the muscle atrophy occurs before we build any new muscle fibre (generally). This reversal of muscle atrophy takes a great deal less time than it takes to build altogether new muscle, and the return of the muscle to it's original size occurs quite quickly also.
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  #22   ^
Old Wed, May-18-05, 11:04
garhi's Avatar
garhi garhi is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 29
 
Plan: life without bread
Stats: 155/160/165 Male 5'10"
BF:15%/12%/10%
Progress: 50%
Location: santa barbara
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodyAllen
Wow. I mean really, wow. You just managed to post one of the most misinformed and illogical rants I've ever seen on these boards.

Where are you getting this garbage?


1. go to www.mattfurey.com
2. sign up for his newslist
3. read his 'rants' daily, get pissed off
4. gradually decide he's right
5. quit weightlifting, start bodyweight workouts

that is exactly the process i used to arrive at my current state of misinformed and illogical garbage ranting...glad you liked it!
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  #23   ^
Old Wed, May-18-05, 11:32
Bigdaddy99's Avatar
Bigdaddy99 Bigdaddy99 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 56
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 290/225/220 Male 6'1"
BF:
Progress: 93%
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by garhi
this is exactly the kind of sh*t that you get when you read mainstream "bodybuilding" articles...


Garhi,

I respect the fact that you have chosen bodyweight exercises as your route to physical fitness. It is clear that you are very passionate and well versed on the subject.

BUT, you need to give other people the same respect for whatever exercise program they have chosen, whether it is weight training, running, dancing, etc... the important thing to keep in mind on this forum or any other forum is to encourage and help out people to do any sort of activity. Because doing something is better than doing nothing. Your posts to date have been very negative on any other training program other than bodyweight training.

Feel free to recommend bodyweight training, but first try and read the persons post to see if that would actually fit into what their goals are. In other words, listen before you speak.
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  #24   ^
Old Wed, May-18-05, 13:02
WoodyAllen WoodyAllen is offline
New Member
Posts: 52
 
Plan: Low GI/Sugar
Stats: 250/180/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaddy99
Agreed. But this is only for the experienced lifter. No doubt that as you approach your own natural potential for muscle mass, the only way to add muscle is through a high intake of protein and carbohydrates and we are talking high... like 1.5 - 2 grams of protein and carbs per pound of lean body weight.

There are not too many of us in this boat here... although I hope to be someday.

But, for an inexperienced lifter, it is possible to burn fat and and add REAL muscle growth.

In my case, I benefited from muscle memory. I used to lift weights hard when I was younger, I was pretty big. What happens when we build new muscle is that those muscle cells are now with us for life, unless of course, through injury, bad dieting or starvation, our body is forced to cannabalize muscle tissue in order to use it as fuel for basic survival. However, when we stop stimulating the muscle fibres on a constant basis, there is no need for the muscle to maintain it's size and strength. Therefore "muscle atrophy" occurs. What this means is that our muscles shrink to a size that is relevant to our daily activity and the strength of the muscles follow in accordance with what we require. When we begin to stimulate our muscles again through resistance training, the reversal of the muscle atrophy occurs before we build any new muscle fibre (generally). This reversal of muscle atrophy takes a great deal less time than it takes to build altogether new muscle, and the return of the muscle to it's original size occurs quite quickly also.


Yes. If you have had a long lay off an atrophied then you can definately do it again. I'm not sure if ever to the degree of the first time but...

Y'know what's funny is that now after being the fat kid for so long and then the fat adult I'm finally at a point where I'm quite fit and have been basically cutting for a long period of time. I'm really thinking about going on a dedicated bulking cycle. I know I"ll gain a bit of fat and that is psychologically holding me back from doing it even though I know I'll be better off in the long run and I can get back to where I am before too long. I'll probably actually be able to get even leaner as I firmly believe you need to periodize in order to most effectively bulk or lean-up. But its a tough step to take - especially since I naturally have a thick muscular build. Any other former fatties dealing with this? I'm going to do it but its just a weird feeling.
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  #25   ^
Old Wed, May-18-05, 13:41
Bigdaddy99's Avatar
Bigdaddy99 Bigdaddy99 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 56
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 290/225/220 Male 6'1"
BF:
Progress: 93%
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Default

You wouldn't happen to be the same Woody that works out at the Goodlife in Kanata? My brother's friend named Woody was one of the people that helped convince me to start Atkins.
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  #26   ^
Old Wed, May-18-05, 13:48
WoodyAllen WoodyAllen is offline
New Member
Posts: 52
 
Plan: Low GI/Sugar
Stats: 250/180/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Default

Hah, I do workout at the goodlife in Kanata but my name isn't actually Woody. You?
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  #27   ^
Old Wed, May-18-05, 13:50
Bigdaddy99's Avatar
Bigdaddy99 Bigdaddy99 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 56
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 290/225/220 Male 6'1"
BF:
Progress: 93%
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Default

Take a look at my pic and see if you recognize me.
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  #28   ^
Old Thu, May-19-05, 09:36
WoodyAllen WoodyAllen is offline
New Member
Posts: 52
 
Plan: Low GI/Sugar
Stats: 250/180/180 Male 68
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Default

BD99

Not off hand, though I'll keep my eye out. I'll put a pic up here soon. When do you usually go in? I come in first thing in the morning for cardio M-F and usually do weights MWF in the evening.
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  #29   ^
Old Thu, May-19-05, 10:11
kaypeeoh kaypeeoh is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 1,216
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 185/180/165
BF:
Progress: 25%
Default

[QUOTE=

In my case, I benefited from muscle memory. I used to lift weights hard when I was younger, I was pretty big. What happens when we build new muscle is that those muscle cells are now with us for life, unless of course, through injury, bad dieting or starvation, our body is forced to cannabalize muscle tissue in order to use it as fuel for basic survival. However, when we stop stimulating the muscle fibres on a constant basis, there is no need for the muscle to maintain it's size and strength. Therefore "muscle atrophy" occurs. What this means is that our muscles shrink to a size that is relevant to our daily activity and the strength of the muscles follow in accordance with what we require. When we begin to stimulate our muscles again through resistance training, the reversal of the muscle atrophy occurs before we build any new muscle fibre (generally). This reversal of muscle atrophy takes a great deal less time than it takes to build altogether new muscle, and the return of the muscle to it's original size occurs quite quickly also.[/QUOTE]


That's been my life-experience also. As a teen I was a 1200 pound powerlifter. Powerlifting is the most useless sport there is. It consists of one deadlift, one benchpress and one fullsquat. The three lifts are added and the highest number wins the contest. I won a few. I quit lifting when I realized how dumb it was. Thirty years later if I go into a gym for lifting, it only takes a week or two for my strength to start flooding back.

Now I'm a runner and I don't get the same effect. If I take a week off, as I start back it feels like I've never run a step before.
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  #30   ^
Old Thu, May-19-05, 18:06
lilli's Avatar
lilli lilli is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,079
 
Plan: My own, post Atkins
Stats: 180/131/140 Female 5'5
BF:
Progress: 123%
Location: los angeles
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaypeeoh
Powerlifting is the most useless sport there is. It consists of one deadlift, one benchpress and one fullsquat. The three lifts are added and the highest number wins the contest. I won a few. I quit lifting when I realized how dumb it was.

And i respect your opinion. But...I strongly disagree and find powerlifting to be a wonderful sport. I have been doing it for 3 years now, and my body has completely changed shape, and i am quite strong and feel capable in most situations where strength is needed (for example, lifting heavy furniture and things, instead of having to ask a "stronger" man to do it.) It has given me confidence and better health. And also, I feel righteously proud of myself for choosing this sport, as it is very male-dominated. When people find out it's my chosen exercise, they're usually very suprised that someone as feminine as myself does such things (i definitely don't look like a weightlifter!!! If i started looking like a husky man-woman i would quit!!! Thankfully, the build lifting gives women isn't the incredible hulk one.)
Soooo...my point is that powerlifting (or olympic lifting as well, if you think that is dumb too,) is a great, fun activity and people new to exercise shouldn't be discouraged from trying it. I would especially recommend these simple wonderful lifts to other women, because, from experience i can honestly say that they've given me a great body: a tiny waist, which i love; good overall proportion, which i love; and most importantly, a great backside, which I & everybody else loves. Especially my fiance. And various lecherous male friends...
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