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  #16   ^
Old Wed, Apr-14-04, 19:00
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
I did feel that two cups of veggies was not enough,


Not to be picky, but even on induction you are supposed to have 3 cups of veggies per day; more if you are not also eating the allowed portions of avocado and olives or the cheese, cream or lemon juice also allowed on induction. If you don't eat those things, you will find that it's quite possible to consume quite a bit more veggies and still not go over your 20 grams of carb per day maximum even on induction.
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  #17   ^
Old Thu, Apr-15-04, 09:09
black57 black57 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 11,822
 
Plan: atkins/intermit. fasting
Stats: 166/136/135 Female 5'3''
BF:
Progress: 97%
Location: Orange, California
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This is my argument. There are many ways to eat low carb-Atkins is actually 4 low carb diets in one. There of course are South Beach and Protein Power ( I wish PP got more press ). Everyone who diets should diet intelligently. Read the facts, not superstitions and do this diet in the way that it supports their own health. I love telling the history of Native Americans, who lived for centuries on little or no carbs. This low carb diet was more extreme than the induction phase. This culture had been a very healthy group of human beings. They had an exemplary bone structure, they were muscular and had a superlative immune system. Their health, as a whole, deteriorated when they reduced their meat intake and increased their carb intake.

To me those facts support the long term benefits of a low carb diet, regardless of what the "experts" say.
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  #18   ^
Old Thu, Apr-15-04, 12:56
Hellistile's Avatar
Hellistile Hellistile is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,540
 
Plan: Animal-based/IF
Stats: 252/215.6/130 Female 5'4
BF:
Progress: 30%
Location: Vancouver Island
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I agree with Black57. Hunter-gatherer societies and not just the ones in North America, ate mostly meat/fish and highly prized whatever fat was available. They did not suffer from fat-phobia as we do. Carbohydrates were not considered necessary and were consumed in very limited quantities. Without nutritional vitamin and mineral supplements, these people were the healthiest on the planet, well into the 20th century until they started eating like us, so to speak, a balanced, low-fat, high carbohydrate diet.They became obese and, in the case of north-american aboriginals, 70-80% of them developed diabetes. Wouldn't statistics such as these ring some bells somewhere in the medical establishment? Apparently not.
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  #19   ^
Old Thu, Apr-15-04, 14:20
adkpam's Avatar
adkpam adkpam is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,320
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 185/151/145 Female 67 inches
BF:
Progress: 85%
Location: Adirondack Mountains, NY
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I've found people's objections break into these categories:

"But I've always eaten bread/pasta/cookies/candy!"
This is mostly a defect of imagination. There's a phenomenon in kittens that results in cats having the reputation of having finicky appetites. Kittens have a narrow window, from 6-12 weeks or something like that, when they rely on Momma Kat (or who ever is substituting) to let them know what is good to eat. For many cats, that is it....if, as kittens, all they ate was Tiny Bits Ocean Whitefish in gravy, that is literally all they will eat.
People who suffer from this syndrome tend to be very programmed eaters. Some foods are only for breakfast, some are Holy Snacks, there HAS to be bread along with dinner. They have always eaten this way, and they always will. Even if their waistlines show it.
Another problem is that people cannot imagine that there will be a time when they DON'T want any pasta, or bread, or candy. I know I was skeptical too. But one's taste buds really do change. So it does not become a diet of deprivation. It becomes a way of eating that is actually delightful! Just as Dr. Atkins promised.

"We are SUPPOSED to eat sugar and starches. I know professional atheletes who eat this way!"
Pro atheletes, weight lifters, sprinters, even people with a committed workout schedule can all burn off the carbs. Most of the rest of us do not burn up all the carbs we ingest by following low fat/high carb eating.
Besides, if carbs are for energy, how come my old, high carb lunches used to practically put me to sleep every afternoon? Those sleepy people lying on the couch after Thanksgiving dinner aren't really trippy from the tryptophan, that's been disproven. They are actually in a Coma from Carbs.

"All that fat can't be good for you."
This is a favorite, because I can draw on my own experience. "They say fat is bad for you, right? And fat makes you fat, right? Then how could I have lost forty pounds by upping my fat intake to 125 grams a day?" Then I just smile and say, "Maybe that thinking is wrong."

"All that protein can't be good for you!"
Actually, considering the wild way my hair and nails are growing, that my face is much less fussy about breakouts and moisturizers, that I have much more energy and sleep better, I believe I wasn't eating ENOUGH protein before!
There are medical symptoms of eating too much protein and not enough fat. I think that's why most low carb plans encourage fat. But there isn't any evidence that low carb plans, the way most people eat them, do anything but optimize cholesterol, eliminate or reduce diabetes medication, optimize blood pressure, promote faster healing, clear up digestive problems, eliminate or reduce allergies and sleep disorders, and alleviate many roller-coaster mood disorders (just to quote from the experiences of people I know).
After all that, the weight loss almost looks like a bonus.
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  #20   ^
Old Fri, Apr-16-04, 06:40
kyrie's Avatar
kyrie kyrie is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 403
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 191.5/160/135 Female 5'3
BF:39.8%/?/27%
Progress: 56%
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I've been talking to some folks at an anti-Atkins forum, and they really seem stuck on the fact that several medical associations (American Heart Association, American Kidney Fund, etc.) have issued statements warning people of risks in eating low-carb.

The thing is, I read these statements. The AHA doesn't want us to eat too much saturated fat, but I eat less saturated fat than folks do on the typical American diet. I'm going to get my lipid profile checked soon, but indications are such that it's going to be pretty good. Saturated fat in the typical American diet may have a corrleation to high LDLs, but Atkins has been known to lower LDLs, so it's all good.

The AKF is concerned that too much protein leads to dehydration risks. Well, my protein intake is less than what the AKF says is dangerous, plus I drink tons of water.


Speaking of water, what do people mean when they say that weight loss is really just water loss? I know that stress on your body (beginning a diet) can have a diuretic effect, but that water loss can only be attributed to the first week or so. I really can't believe that folks who have lost in the three digits were simply retaining too much water!!!!
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  #21   ^
Old Fri, Apr-16-04, 15:09
kaeleen's Avatar
kaeleen kaeleen is offline
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Posts: 110
 
Plan: A4L
Stats: 147/138/135 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 75%
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I have trouble with that LC weight loss is water loss theory as well. Surely for most people, beyond that first, oh, 10 lbs or so maximum, surely that can't be true. Especially when there is a lot of water being consumed to make up for it, which all LCers who are knowledgeable make a practice of.

My personal criticsim of Atkins is that when my carbs get too low I suffer from sleep disturbance and constipation. And that is with consuming a lot of vegetables. I suppose there are supplements which would help this but I like to follow Hippocrates dictum, "Let food be your medicine and medicine be your food." Actually on SB I think my food is probably very close to Atkins OWL.

That is another thing I've noticed on these boards. I don't see as many people progressing to Atkins OWL as those sticking with induction levels for longer than the first 2 weeks. I know Dr. Atkins said in the book this is necessary for some to maintain weight loss, I just hadn't expected so many. I guess it's one of those YMMV things. But I think that's where a lot of Atkins bad rep for being all meat, eggs and cheese comes from.

I've developed an additional concern seeing all the Atkins and other LC labelled products crowding the store shelves these days. It's gone far beyond what what Dr. Atkins intended as LC substitutes for occasional treats. I'm afraid too many people will see the LC label and think they can stuff themselves just like happened with LF products like Snackwell's and such.
Then the "experts" will be saying , "SEE, we said Low Carb didn't work!"

IMHO, Atkins and other LC plans are healthy as long as you stick to the REAL foods and pay attention to your body's signals. The YMMV factor is often significant and most people find some tweaking helps clear up any problems.
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  #22   ^
Old Fri, Apr-16-04, 15:15
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
Saturated fat in the typical American diet may have a corrleation to high LDLs, but Atkins has been known to lower LDLs, so it's all good.


Saturated fat raises both HDL and LDL, so it comes out about even. What lowers HDL is vegetable oils and tranfats have a horrible impact on cardiac profiles. Even so, I saw the recommendation on the AHA website not that long ago to substitute margarine for butter.

Quote:
I've been talking to some folks at an anti-Atkins forum, and they really seem stuck on the fact that several medical associations (American Heart Association, American Kidney Fund, etc.) have issued statements warning people of risks in eating low-carb.


I know a lot of people get hung up on this, but they have to realize that these are associations. They issue opinions and positions, but do very little research of their own. They are, in fact, basing their opinions in this case on old and now known to be inaccurate studies which are based on high carb AND high fat, not fat in a diet that is restricted in carbs.
I do find myself wondering what these people think of the studies that have been done so far on low carb, some of them by scientists who set out to prove that low carb is harmful, that have shown more improvement in cardiac profiles than the standard AHA diet.

Quote:
Speaking of water, what do people mean when they say that weight loss is really just water loss? I know that stress on your body (beginning a diet) can have a diuretic effect, but that water loss can only be attributed to the first week or so.


That's exactly it. The first few pounds on any diet are generally water, but on low carb the loss of weight after that is more fat and less muscle than those low calorie, low fat diets that are also generally deficient in protein. Unless you have other very serious medical issues going on, nobody is walking around carrying 50+ lbs. of excess water weight and if they were carrying around that much water retention, they wouldn't be walking around...they'd be in the hospital on some serious diuretics!

Quote:
The AKF is concerned that too much protein leads to dehydration risks. Well, my protein intake is less than what the AKF says is dangerous, plus I drink tons of water.


If that were true, then body-builders, who consume huge quantities of protein, would all be keeling over from kidney disease, dehydration and kidney failure. They're not. In fact, studies have been done on body builders looking for problems related to their high protein intake. None were found.

As for the anti-low carb group on the low carb board...challenge them. Ask them to post studies (not opinions, positions, etc..)...honest to goodness studies (preferably peer-reviewed) that show that what they are saying is indeed fact and not opinion. Caution them also that those studies have to involve subjects with a low carbohdyrate intake or they are not valid when discussing low carb. A fat burning metabolism is very different and has different effects on the body than a primarily glucose burning metabolism.
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  #23   ^
Old Fri, Apr-16-04, 15:27
upback
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Quote:
"All that fat can't be good for you."
This is a favorite, because I can draw on my own experience. "They say fat is bad for you, right? And fat makes you fat, right? Then how could I have lost forty pounds by upping my fat intake to 125 grams a day?" Then I just smile and say, "Maybe that thinking is wrong."


I just started a new thread on Kiss vs Atkins, and I was asking this question: How come kiss limits your fats and recommends lean meats to loose? Please check out that thread, it also has the kiss website.

So why does kiss limit the fat to loose weight and Atkins ups the fat?

I am very confussed.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=178931

Last edited by upback : Fri, Apr-16-04 at 15:29. Reason: to add thread
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  #24   ^
Old Sun, Apr-18-04, 08:18
Monika4 Monika4 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 988
 
Plan: South beach (modified)
Stats: 185/153/150 Female 5' 6.5''
BF:
Progress: 91%
Location: Michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nancy LC
I gotta correct some of these errors with your Atkins perception, Monika. I hope you don't mind a friendly rebuttal.


Thanks Nancy - I don't disagree on most points - the poster wanted to hear the arguments!

I do think that those claiming to do Atkins but staying on induction level - whether that is 2 cups or 3, it is still not enough for a WOL! - for months are part of the problem of why people think of it as being low on fiber and fruits and veggies. I had an exchange in our journals with another dieter - she says she is doing Atkins with low animal fat modifications, I say I am doing SBD with Atkins modifications (i.e. lower carb than SBD phase 2) and we are doing the same.
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  #25   ^
Old Sun, Apr-18-04, 08:30
Monika4 Monika4 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 988
 
Plan: South beach (modified)
Stats: 185/153/150 Female 5' 6.5''
BF:
Progress: 91%
Location: Michigan
Default Is a calorie really always a calorie?

One additional argument against Atkins and LC that I have often heard is:

All diets end up being the same, they work because they restrict what you can eat, and therefore you eat less. A calorie is a calorie, and Atkins restricts what you can eat enough that you end up eating less because it is boring.

That is an argument I hear a lot from nutrionists etc., and it is worth discussing. There are four arguments, at least, against it:

One: it is a difference whether you are hungry on a 1200 calorie diet or not. Atkins and other LC diets work in part because fat and protein don't leave you hungry as quickly, so even with the same amount of calories, you can be hungry or not. Obviously, LC dieting is popular because you don't feel hungry, in contrast to slim fast or many low fat diets.

Two: "starvation mode" : When your body is in starvation mode, it uses a calorie given much more efficiently than when the body feels normal. That is one major reason why several recent studies show that LCers eat more calories and still loose more weight. We are making our furnace less efficient!

Three: Insulin and glucose yoyo: you can read up elsewhere - I don't want to bring that whole physiology here again, why the yoyoing of glucose and insulin is bad and how LC maintains a balance of both.

Four: Ketones. You can get the details elsewhere but the bottom line is: If you pee out some of the calories as ketones, they don't count against you.
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  #26   ^
Old Fri, Apr-23-04, 05:45
Masaki's Avatar
Masaki Masaki is offline
New Member
Posts: 23
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 316/228/200 Male 193cm
BF:
Progress: 76%
Location: Honolulu, HI
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Oh yeah, Monika4! There's also the metabolic advantage of LC diets! See this page and the accompanying research or DANDR chapter 7. As far as carbs being necessary for exercise, see this page or DANDR chapter 22, page 293 "The Myth of Carb-Loading." If there is anything that convinced me of the Atkins WOE's true nature, it was the fact that it is completely free. Is eDiets.com free? If you go to the South Beach Diet website, can you see how to do it without paying to become a member? How about Slim Fast, Jenny Craig, or Weight Watchers? Atkins.com has many of the same articles as the book, almost word-for-word, as well as recipes, diet tools (also free, but you'd pay for them on eDiets and the like), rules, myths, data, research, and more importantly every last tiny detail about how to do Atkins and more! Only a man who didn't care about profiting, and only about the health of the people in the grip of the low-fat industry dogma, would make his diet available for free on the internet. I see others as trying to profit from LC, but of course Atkins Nutritionals was making LC foods back when nobody else was, as a service to dieters, not as a kickback as some contend. Some start with the belief that fat is bad, all carbs are good carbs and that Dr. Atkins must have been evil and stupid to have suggested his WOE, but the data contradicts those people, the changed lives of millions contradicts those people, and reality contradicts those people. I will be forever grateful for the good doctor's benevolence.



P.S. You want to see heavy charges leveled against a LC WOE by the ignorant every day? Here they are!

Myths About Atkins

Fact vs. Fallacy Round 1

Fact vs. Fallacy Round 2

Fact vs. Fallacy Round 3

Fact vs. Fallacy Round 4

Fact vs. Fallacy Round 5

Here for all Five

And of course, search the site for more.
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  #27   ^
Old Fri, Apr-23-04, 06:40
Itty's Avatar
Itty Itty is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 713
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 169/132/132 Female 153 cm
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Toronto
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Hi

Yeah, my biggest concern with Atkins is all those unnatural products coming out right now. Low fat "foods" are crap because they are chemicals and artificial sweeteners and salt, etc. Now Atkins and others are branding the same kind of crap in shakes, cookies, chips, bread, etc. It is disappointing to me... maybe it's because I can't digest them!!!!!

Too many people have leapt off the healthy, natural food bandwagon, and hopped on the processed, what-the-heck-is-propylene glycol mono fatty acid esters- anyway? bandwagon.

Mary
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  #28   ^
Old Fri, May-07-04, 09:01
poisinivy's Avatar
poisinivy poisinivy is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,509
 
Plan: Jenny Craig
Stats: 240.4/194/165 Female 5'6" - large frame
BF:soft/round/cuddly
Progress: 62%
Location: Washington, DC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monika4

Two: "starvation mode" : When your body is in starvation mode, it uses a calorie given much more efficiently than when the body feels normal. That is one major reason why several recent studies show that LCers eat more calories and still loose more weight. We are making our furnace less efficient!


Okay - this statement really confused me. I had to read it at least 3 times for it to finally sink in. IMO I think the statement is a pure contradiction. "When in starvation mode our body uses a calorie more efficiently", of course, you gotta conserve when you're runnin low, it's called trying to save your *ss....but this is not a good thing. "LCers eat more calories and still loose more weight" that's because we are actually more efficient at using the calories we consume, 9gs of fat versus 4gs of carbs for the same amount of energy, and releasing what we don't need. But if you use up 9gs of fat for your energy versus 4 gs of carbs you have to consume a lot more calories to keep your body energized and running at optimum.......and that's why people lose so much weight on Atkins.
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  #29   ^
Old Fri, May-07-04, 09:18
westerner's Avatar
westerner westerner is offline
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Posts: 75
 
Plan: Willet/Balanced
Stats: 174/151/150 Male 5'10"
BF:24%/18%/10%
Progress: 96%
Location: North Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itty
Yeah, my biggest concern with Atkins is all those unnatural products coming out right now. Low fat "foods" are crap because they are chemicals and artificial sweeteners and salt, etc. Now Atkins and others are branding the same kind of crap in shakes, cookies, chips, bread, etc. It is disappointing to me... maybe it's because I can't digest them!!!!!

Too many people have leapt off the healthy, natural food bandwagon, and hopped on the processed, what-the-heck-is-propylene glycol mono fatty acid esters- anyway? bandwagon.

Consumer Reports has an article in their May 2004 issue that discusses the explosion in LC junk food. Some of these LC cookies, ice cream, snacks etc. may have low carbs in them but are still basically empty calories.

One point where I think Atkins was right, was that just because a food is low fat (e.g. nonfat ice cream) doesn't mean it's good for you, because it contains a ton of processed carbs and sugar. Let's not repeat the same mistake again by eating junk just because it's marked "low carb".

I think any time you reduce a diet to a system where you're counting just one type of food (whether fat or carbs), somebody's going to come up with a low (fat or carbs) version of junk food and say look!!! our junk is healthy because it's lowfat lowcarbs lowwhatever... but you're still eating junk!
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  #30   ^
Old Fri, May-07-04, 14:06
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Quinadal Quinadal is offline
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Posts: 596
 
Plan: HFH
Stats: 297/291/200 Female 65 inches
BF:
Progress: 6%
Location: Florida, USA
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All this LC junk food should be used as an occasional treat or convenience, not as a mainstay of your WOE.
If I want cheesecake, I don't go out and buy a polyol ladden one from the store, that contains tons of chemicals! I make my own, with REAL cream cheese and sour cream and eggs. The only chemical in it is the liquid splenda, and I know exactly how much is in there.
More people need to learn to cook if they want LC treats and make their own. Homemade is much healthier and easier to fit into the WOE.

I realize that many people can't bake whenever they want something, though.
Of course, I was like this before Atkins, too. Never used mixes.
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