Ahhhh, Kath54. A lurker!

Fridayeyes, sorry to sound like a broken record, but sugar is a disachharide and fructose is a monosachharide (I never know if I spell this properly), is it not?

Yes, sugar is a combination of glucose and fructose, but does not the similarity between it and fructose end there? Sugar replenishes muscles, stored as glycogen and provokes an insulin response. Fructose does not cause the release of insulin and is stored in the liver as glycogen.

If this is true, why then being fructose into the arguement to ward a refeeder off table sugar? I don't get it.

BTW I stopped refeeding midnight on Saturday and saw hints of ketosis Monday morning so that's 36 hours for me. Not complaining.

Oh, and BTW, I'm a chubby 26% bodyfat according to a caliper test on Friday. Rats. The calculator you posted put me at 20% for my waist/gender/weight.

Posted a rather vain picture of myself a while back somewhere on the CKD forum when I was at 11% 15 years ago. Ahhh, the days of my youth!

The point is that fructose being being stored in the liver does two things.

1) It delays the return to ketosis. In the CKD forum, people who have done high fructose carb-ups report a much harder time getting back into ketosis. If you're cutting, spending 5 days of every cycle in ketosis is better than spending only 2 or 3.

2) Gram for gram, what goes into the liver does *not* go into the muscles. If I'm going to eat carbs, I want them in the muscles, not in the liver. They glycogen we use during workout is actually stored in the muscles, along with the water to which it bonds. That's what provides the 'pumped' look, and that's why keto dieters sometimes complain of looking flat. (No glycogen = no water = no pump) The liver stores are very frequently turned into triglycerides - blood lipids - which is not at all what we want. (note that the "gly" in glycogen is the same as the 'gly' in triglycerides) A little table sugar is fine, but drinking a six pack of US Coke or gallons of US Gatorade has drawbacks. (I'm not exaggerating about gallons of Gatorade either. One guy posted something like 2 gallons for his carb-up, LOL)

I'm certainly not trying to flame anyone who has fructose in their refeed. I use some brown sugar and strawberries during mine, and things like sugar cereal and low fat Pop-tarts will have some too. My point is to say that overall, it's worth limiting for maximum effect.

Edit: the bf% calc on the petrizzi site (waist only) is very rough and dirty. There are more accurate ones out there, so if any one measurement seems wildly out of whack, try another calculator and triangulate. 26% at your weight wouldn't seem to leave you much muscle mass for a guy Unless your height is shorter than average. Then again, maybe my idea of low/high for guys is off because I have 135 lean myself. *shrug* Anyhow, not even haivng seen you, if you've been lifting enough to know about a CKD, I'd bet the 26% is high. Here are two other calc sites: nocarbzone.com and leanandstrong.com (link down the left side).

Cheers,

Friday

Did the math... 209 lbs at 26% is 155 lean - not as low as I thought. 209 lbs at 20% is 167 lean. Where do you think you are?

I think we're arguing in agreement here.

- Fructose bad during refeeds.

- Table sugar good during refeeds.

- The fact that table sugar is 1/2 fructose does not mean that it has the same effect.

BTW, Gatorade in Australia also lists the two main ingredients (Behind water) as "Glucose, Sugar" but not "Fructose".

I'm guessing if all those sweets I had consumed contained fructose not sugar I would not be seeing any color change in the ketostix as I have (But VERY slight)

Re body fat, I consider myself a 'heavy' build (If such a thing exists). In that photo I was 83kg (183lb) but fairly lean. 16lb of fat would not be much to have.

Anyway, I don't think I'll see that shape any time soon. I went from a 32" waist to 40". Roping it back in, one pork rind at a time...

IMHO - table sugar is good if you don't overdo it. Overdoing it would be like drinking a whole lot of oversweetened Kool-Aid, probably in combo with other stuff that has fructose in in. Part of the caution about table sugar is that it's a 'hidden' source of fructose, so people who are having trouble getting back into ketosis might want to look at their labels and see if (hidden)fructose could be the problem.

Yeah, 36 hrs is pretty good. If I carb up from Friday dinner to Saturday dinner, I can often hit ketosis Sunday night. That doesn't mean my carb up is any better than yours. Likely it means our bodies are just different.

Cheers,

Friday

Ahhh, FridayEyes, I recognise you now from your picture. I did a fair bit of research in the CKD forum before embarking on this little adventure and I read quite a lot of posts there from you. Nice to meet you.

When I lived in Michigan I amost moved to Southern California instead of back here to Melbourne. I also took a trip there for business last September and loved it. La Jolla. Never been there before. Everybody seems to be content in the knowledge that they are probably living in the nicest climate in the US. I have to say though, that when traffic is good the freeways flow but when bad they suck. I got from LAX to La Jolly in 1:40 on a Sunday night (Not exactly legal driving) but it took me 5 hours to get back on a Friday afternoon. Nearly missed my flight to Hawaii (Had to spend a day there surfing to recover). Didn't help that I got stuck in Mexico. Tip for beginners: Never go to Mexico as a foreigner with a rental car, $3 in cash and no car insurance. Lucky to be here.

One of the many wild and wacky experiences I seem to have every time I go to the US.

Michigan, eh? I grew up here: * holds up left hand and points to the bottom knuckle of her index finger*



Dow Chemical USA - If you've heard of dioxin, you've heard of us.

Cheers,

Friday

Re Michigan I spent most of my time in Grosse Pointe and Traverse City. Got onto a sailing crew in GP by cooking a cheesecake and waltzing down the dock at the sailing club waving it around until one of the crews took me.

Dow Chemical eh? Yup, know that name. I think I said I was with them when asking for a hotel room discount. An old trick - You get at least half off.

Hehe



Gonna weigh in in a couple of hours before bed.

i dont think sugar is ever good for you! i dont seem to need it havint had any in about 4 months. i read somewhere that anything over 1 tsp a day is converted to fat, hey whatever good luck guy.
this body is getting harder every day without sugar

Well, 'idontknow', you're a better person than I.

I went almost three months without sugar. But I'd be lying if I denied being tempted daily.

Not just by cheesecake or or the aroma of fresh baked bread. Simply the taste of a juicy plum or mango. So sweet, so natural, but so full of sugar.

I disagree that sugar is bad for you. It just is on Atkins. If you find a diet that allows fat AND sugar, let me know won't you.

Too many carbs today. 39 instead of the targeted 20.

http://www.fitday.com/WebFit/Public...Owner=Tornado79 (March 28)

Those roasted peppers and the mushrooms did it.

Drats.

Anyway, weigh in tonight before steak dinner was steady at 209.

I'll do a keto stick check and weigh in in the morning before my run.

Jeez, cutting out cheese and salami / salted meats has really cut down my choices! I think KISS stands for "Kept In Starving State".

Tornado & fridayeyes,

You both have made my morning coffee!
and my afternoon snack, and my midnight treat, and my...ect-

Love the posts! I have learned quite a bit from you both. Keep the updates comming.

NoSunNoFun-

All work and no play makes Johnny a dull boy.

I'm knackered. Time for bed. Enjoy your brekky NoSunNoFun.

Have a feeling my appetite in the morning will be verocious.

Zzzzzzzzzz....

T.

What is the time difference in Australia from California?

Currently its now 11:56 am darn near noon. I am up ready for the day ( have been ) and your going to sleep...
just wondering?

NoSunNoFun-

3.5 days after refeed began (209lb) and 2.5 days after it stopped (211lb) I am 209lb. Slight ketosis showing.

NoSunNoFun, Melbourne is generally 17 or 19 hours ahead of California, depending on daylight saving. We just lost daylight saving yesterday so we are in the window where the difference is 18 hours.