Speaking of failure.
My husband has Chronic Fatigue Immune Deficiency Syndrome, and has for several years. This is a disease that is not well understood, difficult to treat, and the chances of cure at this stage are pretty infinitesimal.
But one of the things I admire about him are that HE DOES NOT GIVE UP!
He has to treat himself, with medical support, because they don't know much more than he does. We tried some nutritional supplements, and that helped. We tried a new drug, and that was terrible. Now he's getting into low carbing, and has lost weight and gotten some energy improvements.
Low carbing is not his whole answer. But it's making things better. And I think that was the point Lisa N was making. He's not feeling like a victim because even though odds are against any one of these things working, he doesn't give up. I love him, I support him, and I WANT HIM TO GET BETTER. Even if he doesn't.
He is in a situation where he doesn't have control over his body, but he keeps trying, and sometimes things work.
You can't win if you don't play.

The morbidly obese were at some point only...obese...fat...overweight...plump...heavyset. They got the way they are through the many diets they went on that activated insulin resistance, carb addiction, sugar/insulin imbalances. NAAFA is saying that if they had been left heavyweight and societal pressures had not striped them of self-esteem and the desire to be accepted as "normal" that "forced" them into the dieting cycles and spiraling weight and resulting imbalances they would be at a better place now. How many of you acknowledge that you "dieted" yourself to your weight before lc?

If you're healthy but overweight...maybe you'd be better off if you don't start playing!!

I'm not sure I can fathom the NAAFA position - in my opinion it's all based on The Big Lie that they accept their weight. Can anyone who has lived the life of a morbidly obese person honestly say that they accepted it, never thought about it, didn't wish it could be different?

I live that life, and I can tell you: I fantasiz(ed) about being thin all the time. I thought about it -- still think about it -- more often than I think about sex. Honestly.

I think a 300-pound person who can barely walk across the parking lot is simply either deceiving himself, or others, when he says he is happy with that situation. There were times I worked to create this illusion for myself that I could live that way. But the truth is, I can't live that way. Or not for very long.

They promote acceptance, which I agree with. In many ways, America hates the fat more than it hates any religious, ethnic, or other group. America is wrong to do that, and the people who do it are taught it's the one prejudice they can safely have.

Whether or not it was appropriate for ItsTheWoo to make them think about that stance, I can't say. I have a difficult time believing that it is harmful to challenge unhealthy illusions.

I know the mindset because I've had it myself: To me, it used to be that talking about weight loss is tantamount to saying that there is something wrong with me. I knew there was, and I didn't like speaking of it. Ultimately that was a mindset I had to give up.

If we as obese people want to turn up the car radio when it makes a noise, that's fine. But I've decided to look under the hood. I won't make a values judgment about those who don't, but you can't expect me to think that's fine and dandy.

Fat people deserve respect and kindness like everyone else. I'm not here to challenge those who prefer to live the lie that everything's okay.

You may not be, but NAAFA is:



They give no exceptions to that statment. It's a blanket statement across the board for all persons who are overweight.



Granted, some countries such as the Netherlands do cater to addicts and do what they can to help them lead productive lives, even supplying them with clean drugs and needles and a safe place to use them, but as you pointed out they are also doing what they can to make sure that the population of addicts doesn't continue to grow. What is NAAFA doing to ensure that the population of obese people doesn't grow? Nothing, because their position is that the obese person doesn't have a problem, the rest of society does and that the majority of problems that people of size do have (health or emotional) are either directly or indirectly caused by pressure from society to diet and become thinner. While there may be some truth to that line of thinking, it also removes any and all responsiblity from the obese person to do something to change their lives. If it's all someone else's fault, that removes all control and responsibility from you. If your obesity causes you health problems, address the health problems and not the obesity.
An interesting thought here; if NAAFA is successful in their mission of eliminating prejudice and discrimination against people of size, there would be no more need for NAAFA. While it might be in the best interest of its members to succeed themselves out of existence, it's not in the best interest of the organization.

Are you saying that attempting to reduce your weight causes all these conditions and if so, do you have the documentation and studies to support it?
Based on your statement, all of us...every last one...are making our problems worse instead of better by chosing to live this lifestyle and losing weight.
Speaking from personal experience, this has not been the case with me. I have seen only improvements and measurable ones at that, with pursing a low carb lifestyle and losing weight.

With a position like this, NAAFA is never going to achieve it's goal...advancing fat acceptance. Regardless of the fact that it is wrong to judge people on their appearance, in the real world that is exactly what happens. Some examples: "beautiful" vs "plain", "normal height" vs "small" people, ect. There is subtle discrimination everywhere, and it is part of human nature. The average person isn't going to buy into the concept that the obese can't do a single thing to lose weight and shouldn't even try because they are being sabotaged by "others"...they understand that "dieting" alone isn't the answer...it is changing your lifestyle to maintain the loss. There is no post on this thread that has yet to refute the original opinion posted...that NAAFA is an obesity-enabling organization.

I think NAAFA is shooting itself in the foot if its attitude toward dieters is that they're breaking rank, cowering to society's prejudices, trying to please The Man, etc. I agree with Lisa that it's paradoxical that they take a neutral position on feederism, yet a firm anti-weight-loss position. Why not put that in the category of "that's your own business", too?

I've been following the NAAFA threads because discrimination really bothers me. I think they'd have far more support and get a lot more accomplished if they'd focus on discrimination and leave members' diet, lifestyle choices and possible health issues between individuals and their doctors. Should there be safe places, events, etc for those who choose to be diet-free, for the lack of a better term? Absolutely. Should they provide support for dieting? No, because it's already everywhere else. But if anti-dieting is the only option, they've seriously bottle-necked their membership.

I'm not saying this lifestyle "lc" is one of those "diets". But it MIGHT BE for some. LC does work for a lot of people. It does not work for ALL.

Re diets and their yoyo effects. The literature is out there proving the effect of diets. Tons of it. Dr. Atkins affirms it and so do the Hellers and Eades. We've all seen, heard, and heard it quoted. And further many of us have personally experienced it.

And you've said "speaking from personal experience", which again, is my point. It is YOUR experience. And that of many others on this board and of those that have commented here. It is not EVERYONE'S that is following or has followed lc!!!

The topic isn't, and never was, about trying to force the NAAFA to promote a LC WOL. It is about the fact that NAAFA discourages it's members from losing weight by promoting the idea that it's members shouldn't even try: "...the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance strongly discourages participation in weight-reduction dieting." The only way to lose weight is to change your eating lifestyle and become more active. If someone is so heavy they can hardly walk up a flight of stairs without becoming breathless, they obviously need to go on some kind of weight-reducing pattern of eating. In the American lexicon, this is referred to as a "diet". The only other alternative is to do nothing. And, again, that is where the NAAFA will fail in it's agenda because regardless of the moral issues, the average person won't buy into the idea that they have to make allowances for people who have chosen to remain morbidly obese and then expect society to re-tool to accomodate them. It's good that NAAFA provides a "safe place"...it's bad that they discourage their members from losing weight.

Excellent post, mb99. So this is probably a political issue then. If people are slimming down, it makes their claim that fat people should be accepted hold less water. If people are doing something to change fat, why should society stop viewing fat as bad?

I agree. Though I am fully well aware of metabolic disadvantages and advantages which are out of our control that contribute to body fat levels (women, older people, the IR/hyperinsulemic, shorter people etc all have slower metabolic rates) to become and stay very obese is a self-destructive choice. You are choosing to eat food in quality and/or quantity that exacerbates your tendancy to be fat.

Like Dr. Phil says, you may have a genetic tendency to become very large, but a large weight is but one possibility on a continuum of weights. You are choosing to put yourself at the higher end rather than work hard and limit foods to put yourself at the lower end.

For example, I know I will never be skinny. I have metabolic disadvantages which say "you will be larger than average". I am a size 13 or 12 now. I can't expect to get much smaller than this, healthfully... if I'm lucky I might be a 10 or maybe even an 8 when all is said and done. Just because I won't ever be a size 2 like other young girls and movie stars doesn't mean I should just resign myself to being 280 again.

I agree, if someone chooses to do nothing about their overweight that is their choice. People shouldn't be encouraged to do anything about their weight (medical advice from a doctor non withstanding), because that is a decision that has to come from within. My problem is NAAFA encourages people in the wrong direction. Last time I checked, NAAFA was a group which is supposed fight for the rights of those who are overweight and obese; why in the world do they think they have a right to encourage obesity in their members and non-members?

I think it is a perfectly applicable comparison.

Binge drinking/cocaine/heroin usage changes brain chemistry in such a way that makes the user dependent on them to achieve physical and emotional well being.
Binge carb usage also changes brain chemistry in the same way.

The solution to controlling alcohol or narcotic addiction is to abstain from the drug, and to fight whatever pangs of craving remain

The solution is the same for the carb addict.

You are being incredibly short-sighted here. YOu are assuming once you quit drugs or drink never again do you have a craving; you are assuming it is easy to kick drugs vs kicking carbs which is harder, since you eat to live. I totally disagree. It is perfectly doable to live, eat, and be healthy without ever eating another oreo cookie or chocolate chip cookie dough icecream. In fact, you would probably be healthier without carb binge junk food.

You are also assuming that carb addicts are the only addicts who can get old cravings again, even in absence of their "drug usage". This is very very false. Fighting emotional cravings for addicts is a life long battle. Ask any ex-smoker if they sometimes get nostalgic for a cigarette when put in an environment that is stressful, or one that would otherwise elicit cigarette cravings. They do. My cousin quit smoking 2 years ago, she tells me she still gets cravings some times.

In my opinion, "trigger foods" aren't trigger foods for physical reasons, they are primarily emotional cravings.
You need to change the way you use food, not blame the food. Anything warm, with interesting texture, flavor, etc you are going abstain from forever just because it reminds you of comfort food?

Other addicts also have "triggers", you know, they are not limited to carb addicts. They might be out with their old friends, tempted to pick up their old vice. They might be in a stressful situation which previously would have encouraged binge usage of their drug. These are triggers. Triggers are emotional cravings, not physical ones.

If you never deal with the emotional aspects which resulted in your carb addiction you will never fully beat it (to become an addict one must abuse the substance in the first place, and the reason for abuse is invariably behavioral/emotional).


In my opinion, LC can be looked at as a tool to conquer carb addiction, it is not the total panacea solution to every aspect of carb/food addiction.

If you refuse to deal with emotional triggers and habitual eating, the LC woe will not work out for you. You will wind up binging on LC foods, falling off the wagon, or eating too much and not losing weight.

To beat an addiction, you need to address the emotional aspects as well as the physical ones. Blaming only the vice, and not your behavior itself, is a recipe for failure.

Good point. I can't STAND when the success rate of losing weight is pulled out to make weight loss efforts seem pointless. You cannot predict success on an individual level for an endeavor which is very much rooted in dedication, discipline, education, and hard work. Individual variance is such that my level of dedication, discipline, education, and hard work is much higher than the next dieter, and therefore our odds of being successful losers are far far different. It would be like saying 95% of people who want to be doctors fail at their dream. Well duh... most people soon realize being a doctor is too hard, requires too much education and discipline. That doesn't necessarily mean because most people are not capable of becoming a doctor that I personally will fail. I have CONTROL over MY BEHAVIOR.

NAAFA, being victim-minded, does not ACKNOWLEDGE the fact that personal decisions and choices are what determine where one's body weight end up. They proliferate the lie that how fat you are is completely out of your control.

90% of people enter diets are failed from the start for the following reasons:
1) They are completely uneducated about nutrition and are incapable of making proper choices for their metabolic needs. This is the unfortunate story of the person with insulin problems doing a high carb diet because they were told it was healthy, which they gain weight, stall, and/or feel hungry and miserable on. It's really not their fault when they fail, they just didn't have access to the proper education to be successful at weight loss.

2) They are mentally and emotionally unprepared to make behavioral changes that are required of maintaining low weight. These are the types who blame everything entirely for their condition (it's the carbs, it's the cheese, it's the nuts, it's the "frankenfoods"!)... except their own behavior. Sure these foods may be triggers, but the problem here is that they refuse to see it is the choices they make and the way they choose to use the food is under their control This type ultimately falls prey to constant binge eating which then results in shame, resulting in more binging, etc. Eventually they feel so beaten down that they give up. The reason they fail is because they are trying to put a round peg in a square hole; the problem is emotional eating but they are only looking at the problem from a physical perspective.

3) Lack of determination. You know this guy, he wants to be thin, he wants to be thin RIGHT NOW, but he doesn't really want to put in the hours, sweat, or make the sacrifices. This is the guy you see talking about carb blockers, eating LC junk food for a staple, and asking what the quickest way to lose 5 pounds a week. Poor guy. Problem here is cognitive dissonance; he expects sustainable weight loss without work, which is never going to happen and is not physically possible. Once he comes to terms with the fact that weight loss can only happen from training in education and emotional handling, discipline, and sacrifice, then he might be successful. Or, on the other hand, he might ultimately decide it's not worth it to lose that extra 20 .

Just because most people enter weight loss attempts the wrong way, or incompletely, doesn't mean weight loss doesn't work. It only means that most people lack the ability to make weight loss work for one of the above reasons.

I think this is not true for many obese people.

I got to my whopping 280 just by eating what I wanted, never thinking about calories, and only following my bodies hunger cues. Unfortunately, my hunger cues were possessed by the blood sugar monster ;O.

I knew better than to try one of those low fat diets where people report they feel like they're going to die. I knew I couldn't keep that up forever, I would be too hungry eating grass and sugar, and I would fall off only to get fatter. I had resigned myself to being "born with a huge appetite and destined to be fat". I was contemplating gastric bypass surgery to correct my hunger issues, to hopefully help me lose weight.

All I can say is THANK GOD I discovered the world of LC and information about blood sugar while still relatively young.

I can honestly say this is my first, and last, change of eating.

That's your opinion. For a carb addict, triggers can be emotional AND physical, ask any carb addict that has inadvertently eaten some MSG!! And like I said, the carb addict, unlike others, has constant exposure to and surely at least twice a day possible ingestion of his/her "drug" to survive. Are you trying to tell me that other addicts are forced to play Russian Roulette with their addictive sources twice or more times a day?

I'm not saying there might not be emotional issues, there might be. But the emotional issues are far outweighed by the physical ones. In fact the physical ones might lead to or escalate the emotional ones.